Steve, Magnus, Joe.
On 6 April
Steve wrote
> > Even if you say that level means a pattern that is part of the level
> > this doesn't work. Rocks think that they are most moral? Plants and
> > dogs think that they are most moral?
and Magnus commented:
> Yes, what's wrong with that? They *think* they are most moral (even if
> think is not the right word for rocks or plants), but that doesn't mean
> they are most moral in a bigger perspective, i.e. from a higher level.
> From their point of view, i.e. the lower level, they are the most moral
> since they can't react to quality events of higher levels.
Methinks that extrapolating thinking down into the static
hierarchy (even in quotation marks) is misleading. The levels are
perceiving value a particular way and it's only at the intellectual
level that thinking enters the scene, not as anything in itself but
part of its S/O aggregate, in this case "thoughts as different from
what they are about". Making inorganic patterns contemplate how
moral they are sounds weird.
> This realization also means that we, intellectual thinking beings,
> should be aware of the fact that intellect would not intellectually be
> able to grasp the workings of any higher level even if we stared it in
> the eye. (Which, BTW, is just one reason why Bo's SOL is not a level
> of its own).
Here I agree with Magnus. The 4th. level is static and blind to the
Quality context, but a subtlety must be pointed out. If we look
back there was a time when the social level was top notch - and
blind to any evolution above itself. After the coming of the 4th.
level, intellect made itself felt regardless how the social steeped
cultures tried to fend it off. And this goes for intellect too, during
is long tenure as SOM it was blind to anything above itself
("above" means the Q-context) Those who have heard about the
MOQ is still just a a little flock, but we see that inside this
"culture" the old "intellect" (SOM) tries to fend off the MOQ (in
the SOL interpretation) to stay on top in its old capacity as
....MIND. I hope Magnus agrees.
Joe:
> As I read Pirsig¹s take on evolution, The integrity of a lower level
> is intact as long as a higher level exists. Without the higher level
> DQ is a predator. Is Bo¹s SOL a description of a predator in action?
This was a deep one Joe. In a sense DQ is a "predator" regarding
any static level, it is what creates the next level and once it (the
next level) is in place DQ moves up to that level's "leading edge"
(and leaves the first level alone) so in such a context you are
right.
On the other hand while any level was "leading edge" its integrity
was most intact, but the dynamic pull is relentless so it reached a
stage that spawned the next level, and after its upper "unstable
fringe" turned into a new level it's heyday was over.
When it comes to intellect's spawning of the MOQ the level
aspect partly collapses, the MOQ is no static level, yet its
relationship with intellect retains a level-like "quality" and as such
the SOL is a "predator" regarding intellect which is reduced from
SOM to the more humble 4th. level role.
IMO
Bo
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
