On Tuesday 8 April 2008 1:09 AM Bo addresses Joe:
<snip>
Joe:
> As I read Pirsig¹s take on evolution, The integrity of a lower level
> is intact as long as a higher level exists. Without the higher level
> DQ is a predator. Is Bo¹s SOL a description of a predator in action?
This was a deep one Joe. In a sense DQ is a "predator" regarding
any static level, it is what creates the next level and once it (the
next level) is in place DQ moves up to that level's "leading edge"
(and leaves the first level alone) so in such a context you are
right.
On the other hand while any level was "leading edge" its integrity
was most intact, but the dynamic pull is relentless so it reached a
stage that spawned the next level, and after its upper "unstable
fringe" turned into a new level it's heyday was over.
When it comes to intellect's spawning of the MOQ the level
aspect partly collapses, the MOQ is no static level, yet its
relationship with intellect retains a level-like "quality" and as such
the SOL is a "predator" regarding intellect which is reduced from
SOM to the more humble 4th. level role.
IMO
Bo
Hi Bo and all,
I was musing about DQ in my reply to Magnus. I in no way mean to
characterize DQ as Deus Ex Machina. IMO Not to take away any Kudos from
Pirsig, but did not create the concept of DQ, but rather gave a new name to
what he consciously apprehended. We all comprehend consciously the same
thing, but we give it other names. IMO the division of my awareness into
Conscious/Mechanical is the way I explain a metaphysical description of
evolution. It is not hard to describe the first three mechanical stages of
evolution as inorganic, man (organic with reproduction in a single celled
organism), woman (reproduction by penetration of the cell-wall by the sperm
cell). The next social level is harder to justify as it has a twin value, a
mechanical evolution and an evolution of proprietary awareness
(consciousness). Do, Re, Mi__Fa. The step between MI__Fa is only half the
previous value. The law of seven is a law of shock and not horizontal but
circular. In music when the next octave appears it has twice the value up
or down. There is an octave between notes. Man is twice the value of matter,
woman twice the value of man, proprietary awareness (conscious) is only half
the value of woman. How man is conscious is also is a mystery? Something in
sex and breathing shocks evolution from woman to the social level. Ah to
hell with it! You try to explain metaphysical differences in consciousness
between defined and undefined! The mechanical side is easier to work with,
though confusing as hell, e g, AI.
Joe
On 4/8/08 1:09 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Steve, Magnus, Joe.
>
> On 6 April
>
> Steve wrote
>>> Even if you say that level means a pattern that is part of the level
>>> this doesn't work. Rocks think that they are most moral? Plants and
>>> dogs think that they are most moral?
>
> and Magnus commented:
>
>> Yes, what's wrong with that? They *think* they are most moral (even if
>> think is not the right word for rocks or plants), but that doesn't mean
>> they are most moral in a bigger perspective, i.e. from a higher level.
>> From their point of view, i.e. the lower level, they are the most moral
>> since they can't react to quality events of higher levels.
>
> Methinks that extrapolating thinking down into the static
> hierarchy (even in quotation marks) is misleading. The levels are
> perceiving value a particular way and it's only at the intellectual
> level that thinking enters the scene, not as anything in itself but
> part of its S/O aggregate, in this case "thoughts as different from
> what they are about". Making inorganic patterns contemplate how
> moral they are sounds weird.
>
>> This realization also means that we, intellectual thinking beings,
>> should be aware of the fact that intellect would not intellectually be
>> able to grasp the workings of any higher level even if we stared it in
>> the eye. (Which, BTW, is just one reason why Bo's SOL is not a level
>> of its own).
>
> Here I agree with Magnus. The 4th. level is static and blind to the
> Quality context, but a subtlety must be pointed out. If we look
> back there was a time when the social level was top notch - and
> blind to any evolution above itself. After the coming of the 4th.
> level, intellect made itself felt regardless how the social steeped
> cultures tried to fend it off. And this goes for intellect too, during
> is long tenure as SOM it was blind to anything above itself
> ("above" means the Q-context) Those who have heard about the
> MOQ is still just a a little flock, but we see that inside this
> "culture" the old "intellect" (SOM) tries to fend off the MOQ (in
> the SOL interpretation) to stay on top in its old capacity as
> ....MIND. I hope Magnus agrees.
>
> Joe:
>> As I read Pirsig¹s take on evolution, The integrity of a lower level
>> is intact as long as a higher level exists. Without the higher level
>> DQ is a predator. Is Bo¹s SOL a description of a predator in action?
>
> This was a deep one Joe. In a sense DQ is a "predator" regarding
> any static level, it is what creates the next level and once it (the
> next level) is in place DQ moves up to that level's "leading edge"
> (and leaves the first level alone) so in such a context you are
> right.
>
> On the other hand while any level was "leading edge" its integrity
> was most intact, but the dynamic pull is relentless so it reached a
> stage that spawned the next level, and after its upper "unstable
> fringe" turned into a new level it's heyday was over.
>
> When it comes to intellect's spawning of the MOQ the level
> aspect partly collapses, the MOQ is no static level, yet its
> relationship with intellect retains a level-like "quality" and as such
> the SOL is a "predator" regarding intellect which is reduced from
> SOM to the more humble 4th. level role.
>
> IMO
>
> Bo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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