[Bo] But Krimel mentions what's called psychotic conditions and here the brain may be scanned and nothing abnormal found so here a "mental" illness is postulated; a sick mind that influences the body to do weird things - damage itself or others.
[Krimel] This is not true. Scans of individuals with schizophrenia and depression do reveal abnormalities, so do scans of the Dali Lama's monks. For example, the monks' scan show heightened activities in areas of the brain that produce feelings of compassion and well being. Even before scanning technologies the brain's role in thought and behavior was known through studies of people who had brain injuries or other abnormalities. The strange case of Phineas Gage was among the first of these. [Bo] Agree, the S/O reasoning alternates between the "O" about genes for insanity regardless the environment and the "S" that all people will be sane if treated with love and compassion in childhood. And then the "combines" who think that a person with bad genes only will develop an illness if treated badly, something that sounds reasonable at first glance, but is just as untenable as all balance acts inside SOM, all growing from its root: Is mind a by-product of matter or is the world a mind product. [Krimel] Despite what Ian said recently I don't think there are many people staking out extreme positions on the nature nurture debate. But I think few would doubt that genetically each of us is programmed to synthesize certain proteins and other chemicals such as neurotransmitters in specific quantities. The environment may influence this but genetics dictates the range of options available to each of us. If for example we are programmed to produce quantities of serotonin that fall outside the normal range we will have subjective experiences that normal people find difficulty relating to. This is an "objective" fact that will produce a "subjective" effect. You say, "... all growing from its root: Is mind a by-product of matter or is the world a mind product." Is there any serious doubt that mind arises and emerges from matter? Or that the individual mind builds a representation of the world as pure thought? [Bo] Krimel has not read LILA or failed to understand it on this issue - as on most issues. Pirsig's idea is that mental illness is a hoax because there is no isolated "mind", no more than isolated "matter" outside the intellectual level (this again shows the intellect=S/O validity) Psychology and psychiatry are part of intellect's immune system, those who don't behave objectively - reasonably - are insane. [Krimel] It is a shame to have to deal with MoQ novices like yourself, Bo. Where does Pirsig proclaim mental illness to be a hoax? He does express his own belief that treatment forced him to be less honest and more isolated from others. But his also says this: "Now, years later, his resentment against what had happened in the hospital had lessened, and he began to see that there is, of course, a need for psychiatrists just as there is for cops. Somebody has to deal with the degenerate forms of society and intellect. The thing to understand is that if you are going to reform society you don't start with cops. And if you are going to reform intellect you don't start with psychiatrists. If you don't like our present social system or intellectual system the best thing you can do with either cops or psychiatrists is stay out of their way. You leave them till last." Society does not and can not control what people think. There are no laws or codes of morality that treat what we think. Social, moral and legal codes cover what we do. They may cover how we express certain thoughts and how we act on them but they can not what we are allowed to think. [Bo] Hearing voices and having visions were highly appreciated, according to the Bible there were droves of prophets who prescribed their own godheads and arranged contests about which one was able to light fires etc.. These people would guaranteed be "certified" in our times. According to Pirsig police is the social immune apparatus , but this must not be associated with the law-enforcing totally controlled by the intellect-steeped judicial system. In the said Biblical times there was no such, but people who made trouble (having heard voices that told them to kill) were simply eliminated by the society. If they inflicted injury upon themselves they were extra holy. [Krimel] No where in the Old Testament does any prophet "prescribe their own godhead." I would argue that even in the New Testament when Jesus seems to do this, it is people putting words in his mouth that he obviously could not have said. [Bo] I see that Chris and Krimel have continued but I'm slow. [Krimel] Slow? As in "special"? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
