Krimel, I think Bo said it quite well, but
I don't know what you are so upset about Krimel. It is not as if I'm denying
that there is such a thing as abnormalities in the body that affects how a
person "works". It is not as if I'm some sort of hippie-anti-psychiatry-guy
from the 60's. =)
What exactly is it that you don't agree with? I mean, I don't think it's
very strange or radical to point out (especially on this forum) that the
basis that Psychiatry/Psychology rests on is an unstable one. The
Mind/Matter paradox is ever present in the areas of Psychiatry/Psychology,
and it continues to create huge problems.
I base my criticism on having read about the history of "madness" and
Psychiatry, and about what problems have been facing the area, and what
problems is facing it. The are almost all of the based on this paradox, and
the problems is the same now as it was when Descartes made everyone pissed
of by pointing to it - and long before then.
[Krimel before]
As I said I am no fan of the DSM but what is it if not an attempt to
"...define what madness actually IS, and then on that basis help develop the
methods used to treat this Low Quality state."
At least it is an attempt made by people who study and treat the mentally
ill. It is an attempt at professional communication and standardization of
terminology and meaning. It may not be perfect, certainly there is
professional scrutiny and criticism as well, but at least it comes from
people who know what they are talking about and who they are dealing with.
What is your criticism based upon?
"...it is a malfunctioning philosophy as the basis of science that makes it
so much harder to treat these people." What are you talking about? Through
out history the mentally ill have been locked up and isolated, treated with
amusement and contempt, treated with compassion and love. They have been
tortured and executed, electrocuted, drown, drugged, operated upon and had
demons cast out of them. The fact is mental illnesses are hard to treat and
hard to live with and they always have been. The situation today is not good
but it is vastly better than it was even fifty years ago. It is not
philosophy that made a difference. It was medicine.
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 09:17:06 +0200
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [MD] Psychiatry/Psychology
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Chris, Krimel.
On 9 May:
[Krimel]
> I am no fan of clinical psychology in general or the DSM in
> particular. The DSM as I understand it is a book full of labels to
> attach to symptoms and its purpose is mainly to allow for efficient
> billing. But if you think that mental illness is just some cultural
> hoax to put down "religions of one" you obviously have not met
> anyone with a serious mental illness.
Chris:
That's not what I'm saying here. I'm pointing out that when diagnosing
insanity it brings us to the core of the S/O split, resting on a
knifes edge of it. Diagnoses are made not on knowledge that there is
something wrong with people physically, but rather the assumption that
there MUST be, since we have the whole idealism vs. materialism thing
going on.
Chris enlarges the issue to mental illness in general and I agree
also here SOM limits the choice to society or biology, the former
the mind factor the latter the matter one. But this requires some
basics and it starts with SOM's mind/matter paradox, namely the
fact that stuff influences mind and mind influences (moves)
matter. The most platitudinous examples is that alcohol makes
you feel different and that a thought can move your limbs. What
makes it paradoxical is that the mind/matter connection isn't
found.
And never will because the mind/matter distinction only exist on
the intellectual level (SOM). Now, applying this to the mental
illness issue we all know that if a tumor grows within a brain the
person's mind will be affected in some harmful way, how is as
mysterious as in the alcohol example but it can be cured
surgically. But Krimel mentions what's called psychotic conditions
and here the brain may be scanned and nothing abnormal found
so here a "mental" illness is postulated; a sick mind that
influences the body to do weird things - damage itself or others.
Chris:
BUT THEN. Even if someone say's that it's a combination effect that
creates madness, well, I have still not heard a single good
explanation as to what a thought actually is - and how thought
patterns that no one knows where, how or if they exist - can effect
the tissue of the brain - if it has to???
Agree, the S/O reasoning alternates between the "O" about
genes for insanity regardless the environment and the "S" that all
people will be sane if treated with love and compassion in
childhood. And then the "combines" who think that a person with
bad genes only will develop an illness if treated badly, something
that sounds reasonable at first glance, but is just as untenable as
all balance acts inside SOM, all growing from its root: Is mind a
by-product of matter or is the world a mind product.
Chris:
Look, illness is a human concept, and doesn't exist in nature, and
when you say that :
Krimel:
>But people who hear voices demeaning them and urging them
>to injury themselves are seriously ill. People who are so depressed
>that even suicide seems like futile waste of effort have something
>medically wrong with them.
I'd say that yes, we would assume so. And these people can, as you
say, not be treated with philosophy as such - but bare with me here:
it is a malfunctioning philosophy as the basis of science that makes
it so much harder to treat these people, and that gives a huge amount
of other side affects, so - with the basis of another philosophy that
first and foremost could in a satisfying way define what madness
actually IS, and then on that basis help develop the methods used to
treat this Low Quality state.
Krimel has not read LILA or failed to understand it on this issue -
as on most issues. Pirsig's idea is that mental illness is a hoax
because there is no isolated "mind", no more than isolated
"matter" outside the intellectual level (this again shows the
intellect=S/O validity) Psychology and psychiatry are part of
intellect's immune system, those who don't behave objectively -
reasonably - are insane. To see this point we must hark back to
the time when the social level was "leading edge" (and to cultures
where it still is) . Hearing voices and having visions were highly
appreciated, according to the Bible there were droves of prophets
who prescribed their own godheads and arranged contests about
which one was able to light fires etc.. These people would
guaranteed be "certified" in our times. According to Pirsig police
is the social immune apparatus , but this must not be associated
with the law-enforcing totally controlled by the intellect-steeped
judicial system. In the said Biblical times there was no such, but
people who made trouble (having heard voices that told them to
kill) were simply eliminated by the society. If they inflicted injury
upon themselves they were extra holy.
I see that Chris and Krimel have continued but I'm slow.
Bo
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