Ian,
By the way, Squonk goes on to say if we could keep babies in what he
refers to as their "original dq state before static patterns 'blemish' or
'stain' them" and he says we don't need parents either. Technology can keep us
all in a baby state. If you read all the posts, which it seems your not, you
will find this Zen koan counters Squonks thought-experiment, along with the
whole feral child idea, etc... An oldie but a goodie:
mountains are mountains, rivers are rivers
mountains are not mountains, rivers are not rivers,
mountains are again mountains, rivers are again rivers
There's more to this in the posts you may have not read by Squonk, dmb,
Ron injected one, and myself.
SA
--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Heather Perella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: Heather Perella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [MD] moq thought experiement 1.
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Sunday, June 29, 2008, 12:09 AM
> Ian,
>
> Squonk introduced babies when he said they are the
> same as Zen masters.
>
> careful now,
> steady,
> SA
>
>
> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Ian Glendinning
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > From: Ian Glendinning
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: [MD] moq thought experiement 1.
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 10:44 PM
> > DMB, Squonk, SA,
> >
> > I see the problem ....
> > Somewhere someone (DMB ?) introduced the idea of
> > "babies" into the
> > brain-in-a-vat (technologically sensory-controlled
> brain)
> > thread. Neat
> > rhetorical trick for stirring up emotion, but nothing
> to do
> > with the thought
> > experiment.
> >
> > Mad scientists - they eat babies don't they ?
> > Ipso facto - they are mad / evil.
> > Oldest trick in the book ;-)
> >
> > Regards
> > Ian
> >
> >
> > On 6/28/08, david buchanan
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Squonk said to dmb:
> > > How does Ken Wilber know there is such a thing
> as?a
> > pre/trans fallacy? It
> > > can be stated, but why is Ken Wilber such an
> expert on
> > the subject? I don't
> > > find this remotely convincing simply because Ken
> > Wilber says it is.
> > >
> > > dmb replies:
> > > You're objecting as if I were making an
> argument
> > from authority, as the
> > > point depended on Ken Wilber's voice for all
> its
> > weight. But actually his
> > > "pre/trans" fallacy could be removed
> > entirely and the point would remain,
> > > which is simply that babies and mystics
> aren't the
> > same. Ron DiSanto,
> > > co-author of "The Guidebook to Zen and the
> Art of
> > Motorcycle Maintenance"
> > > made the same point. I'd asked him about this
> very
> > point long before I ever
> > > heard of Ken Wilber and he said, "Yea, sure.
> You
> > have to have a mind before
> > > you can transcend it". Joseph Campbell makes
> the
> > same point by way of
> > > Nietzsche. But I would hope that you'd be
> > persuaded by the argument itself.
> > > These names do have a way of adding authority and
> > comfort me as a kind of
> > > confirmation, but usually I like to say the same
> thing
> > in several different
> > > ways just for the sake of clarity and using the
> terms
> > of guys like these
> > > helps in that effort. In fact, it was Pirsig
> (Lila)
> > who said that babies who
> > > fail to recognize patterns will be retarded. It
> is
> > Pirsig who said that sq
> > > and DQ were both necessary.
> > >
> > > The static levels and moral codes also have a
> bearing
> > on this thought
> > > experiment and could even be used to make the
> same
> > point, which is that
> > > infants are different than Zen Masters. Babies
> > aren't even competent at the
> > > biological level while the latter have mastered
> all
> > static patterns and then
> > > some. As I understand it, one simply can't go
> from
> > pre-linguistic brains to
> > > mysticism without going through the developmental
> > processes in between.
> > > That's like having a ground floor and a fifth
> > floor magically floating
> > > several stories above, with no structure to hold
> it
> > up. That's like going
> > > directly from kindergarden to the University.
> It's
> > like a guy with two feet,
> > > a head and nothing but empty space in between.
> (See
> > how I like to say the
> > > same thing in several ways, just to be clear?)
> > >
> > > Squonk also said to dmb:
> > > re. Crimes and ethical nightmares. This is your
> view.
> > Thank you for stating
> > > it.
> > >
> > > dmb says:
> > > Really? You don't share this moral qualms?
> You
> > think it would be ethical to
> > > thwart the normal developmental process of
> infants?
> > That idea doesn't sound
> > > alarms in your conscience? I think children
> raised by
> > wolves would stand a
> > > better chance of having a rich, full life. As far
> as
> > crime goes, I imagine
> > > there would be no shortage of ways to charge a
> person
> > for conducting such an
> > > experience. Neglect, abuse, reckless
> endangerment,
> > medical malpractice, and
> > > some health codes just for starters. I'm sure
> the
> > courts would order a
> > > psychiatric evaluation of the experimenter too,
> and
> > rightly so. Its madness.
> > > You can't be serious.
> > >
> > > Ooops, gotta go. The water in my baby's
> sensory
> > deprivation tank needs
> > > changing.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check
> out
> > the i'm Talkathon.
> > >
> >
> http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving
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