Thanks SA, I was just responding to that one reference addressed to me. We need to be careful which parts remain a thought experiment ;-) how we might put any parts into practice.
Finding a child (with brain intact) in a feral / natural state is one thing - or considering "if" one existed - however creating one to experiment on would be another. The rhetoric blurred that. Ian On 6/29/08, Heather Perella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ian, > > By the way, Squonk goes on to say if we could keep babies in what he > refers to as their "original dq state before static patterns 'blemish' or > 'stain' them" and he says we don't need parents either. Technology can keep > us all in a baby state. If you read all the posts, which it seems your not, > you will find this Zen koan counters Squonks thought-experiment, along with > the whole feral child idea, etc... An oldie but a goodie: > > mountains are mountains, rivers are rivers > mountains are not mountains, rivers are not rivers, > mountains are again mountains, rivers are again rivers > > There's more to this in the posts you may have not read by Squonk, dmb, > Ron injected one, and myself. > > > SA > > > > --- On Sun, 6/29/08, Heather Perella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > From: Heather Perella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: [MD] moq thought experiement 1. > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Date: Sunday, June 29, 2008, 12:09 AM > > Ian, > > > > Squonk introduced babies when he said they are the > > same as Zen masters. > > > > careful now, > > steady, > > SA > > > > > > --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Ian Glendinning > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > From: Ian Glendinning > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: Re: [MD] moq thought experiement 1. > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 10:44 PM > > > DMB, Squonk, SA, > > > > > > I see the problem .... > > > Somewhere someone (DMB ?) introduced the idea of > > > "babies" into the > > > brain-in-a-vat (technologically sensory-controlled > > brain) > > > thread. Neat > > > rhetorical trick for stirring up emotion, but nothing > > to do > > > with the thought > > > experiment. > > > > > > Mad scientists - they eat babies don't they ? > > > Ipso facto - they are mad / evil. > > > Oldest trick in the book ;-) > > > > > > Regards > > > Ian > > > > > > > > > On 6/28/08, david buchanan > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Squonk said to dmb: > > > > How does Ken Wilber know there is such a thing > > as?a > > > pre/trans fallacy? It > > > > can be stated, but why is Ken Wilber such an > > expert on > > > the subject? I don't > > > > find this remotely convincing simply because Ken > > > Wilber says it is. > > > > > > > > dmb replies: > > > > You're objecting as if I were making an > > argument > > > from authority, as the > > > > point depended on Ken Wilber's voice for all > > its > > > weight. But actually his > > > > "pre/trans" fallacy could be removed > > > entirely and the point would remain, > > > > which is simply that babies and mystics > > aren't the > > > same. Ron DiSanto, > > > > co-author of "The Guidebook to Zen and the > > Art of > > > Motorcycle Maintenance" > > > > made the same point. I'd asked him about this > > very > > > point long before I ever > > > > heard of Ken Wilber and he said, "Yea, sure. > > You > > > have to have a mind before > > > > you can transcend it". Joseph Campbell makes > > the > > > same point by way of > > > > Nietzsche. But I would hope that you'd be > > > persuaded by the argument itself. > > > > These names do have a way of adding authority and > > > comfort me as a kind of > > > > confirmation, but usually I like to say the same > > thing > > > in several different > > > > ways just for the sake of clarity and using the > > terms > > > of guys like these > > > > helps in that effort. In fact, it was Pirsig > > (Lila) > > > who said that babies who > > > > fail to recognize patterns will be retarded. It > > is > > > Pirsig who said that sq > > > > and DQ were both necessary. > > > > > > > > The static levels and moral codes also have a > > bearing > > > on this thought > > > > experiment and could even be used to make the > > same > > > point, which is that > > > > infants are different than Zen Masters. Babies > > > aren't even competent at the > > > > biological level while the latter have mastered > > all > > > static patterns and then > > > > some. As I understand it, one simply can't go > > from > > > pre-linguistic brains to > > > > mysticism without going through the developmental > > > processes in between. > > > > That's like having a ground floor and a fifth > > > floor magically floating > > > > several stories above, with no structure to hold > > it > > > up. That's like going > > > > directly from kindergarden to the University. > > It's > > > like a guy with two feet, > > > > a head and nothing but empty space in between. > > (See > > > how I like to say the > > > > same thing in several ways, just to be clear?) > > > > > > > > Squonk also said to dmb: > > > > re. Crimes and ethical nightmares. This is your > > view. > > > Thank you for stating > > > > it. > > > > > > > > dmb says: > > > > Really? You don't share this moral qualms? > > You > > > think it would be ethical to > > > > thwart the normal developmental process of > > infants? > > > That idea doesn't sound > > > > alarms in your conscience? I think children > > raised by > > > wolves would stand a > > > > better chance of having a rich, full life. As far > > as > > > crime goes, I imagine > > > > there would be no shortage of ways to charge a > > person > > > for conducting such an > > > > experience. Neglect, abuse, reckless > > endangerment, > > > medical malpractice, and > > > > some health codes just for starters. I'm sure > > the > > > courts would order a > > > > psychiatric evaluation of the experimenter too, > > and > > > rightly so. Its madness. > > > > You can't be serious. > > > > > > > > Ooops, gotta go. The water in my baby's > > sensory > > > deprivation tank needs > > > > changing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check > > out > > > the i'm Talkathon. > > > > > > > > > http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > Archives: > > > > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
