well i think dmb and ron have answered the objections but i'll respond as well micah, out of courtesy if nothing else. thinker = subject; thought = object. on the level of SOM there is always a thinker and a thought - the two are inseparable. on the level of the MOQ the thinker and thought are both patterns abstracted from immediate experience - thinking. the process 'thinking' is ontologically prior to thought or thinker. 'an individual' (noun) is different from 'individual' (adjective). a dog or cat or raindrop doesn't qualify as *an* individual but there are of course individual examples of dogs/cats etc. an individual is self-conscious - which is an intellectual value pattern.
cheers --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Ron Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Ron Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [MD] Static Self > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Received: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 11:43 PM > Dmb: > > How can there be thoughts without a thinker? The same way > there can be > rain without a rainer. We say "it is raining" > without bothering to ask > about the "it" because we know that there is > nothing doing the raining > except the rain itself. There is no agent above or beyond > the rain which > performs this function. And that's how it is with > thinking. Why does > there need to be an agent which performs this task? Why > does there need > to be an entity above and beyond the thinking itself? See, > from a > certain perspective your question is absurd. It is very > much like belief > in the rainer behind the rain, or the thunderer beyond the > thunder or > the grower separate from the growth. > > As Gav recently pointed out, the individualism you're > advocating here is > classic SOM. It is one of the most basic and central ideas > in the Modern > West since Descartes. It also happens to be Pirsig's > central target in > ZAMM. He deconstructs it with a vengence. > > Ron: > Damn, talk about capturing it all within a paragraph!!! > spirituality, perception and awareness. To me, you have > just defined how MoQ relates to all of these. > > Micah: > There can be no thought without a thinker, again as many > times before on > this board, you use man to establish reality, then remove > man to define > reality...when man is reality. > > Ron: > Man is reality and reality is man. You run anthropocentrism > to > the point of solipsism when you follow this line out. What > Dmb is saying is that there is no solid concrete entities > isolated in space. They are interrelated emergences that > manifest > through inorganic, organic, biological and social patterns > so that the "self" as perceived as isolated is an > illusion. > > What you need to do is get a church of Micah going. > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Start at the new Yahoo!7 for a better online experience. www.yahoo7.com.au Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
