Hi DMB, I'm not suggesting we're "above" the subject matter of isms, or that they're not important - just that practically speaking we need quite different rules (respect) in order to debate them usefully - constructively - ie maintain the values of intellectual patterns over the social.
As soon as we pigeonhole each other, and each other's subjects / agendas according to perceived isms, (slogans) we've lost that battle. It's because I've woken up and smelled the fascism, well pre-9/11, that I take how we debate "governance" very, very - as in very - seriously. By way of example - nothing personal honest, you're not alone - but your suggestion, (by responding to my comment) that I don't (take that seriously) - is part of the lack of respect / rules / freedoms / responsibilities problem that I have a real problem with. Debate that before we debate the main event - the content of isms - is all I am saying. Ian On 7/14/08, david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ian said: > Exactly Marsha, "isms" for for people stuck in social level patterns > > Cause Marsha said: > Marxism? Capitalism? They're both stinky. And besides there's that old > saying, "garbage in, garbage out". The Intellectual Level needs to look > beyond the past for something that considers the seventh generation. > > dmb says: > I really don't think we should pretend to be above "isms" and I think it is > extremely unhelpful to pretend there is no difference or that they all belong > on the social level. There are quite a few "isms" discussed in LILA and the > political conflicts that make up the last century (or so) of our history is > used to explain the difference between the third and fourth levels. Yes, it > is true. Conversations on this topic too often come down to some kind of > ideological stand-off but I really don't think this makes both sides equal. > Haven't you ever noticed how conservatives have to ignore or distort what > Pirsig says about politics, as in the recent case of Ayn Rand and her > individualism? Take the Scopes trial of 1925, for example, which pitted > evolution against religion in our public schools. This debate continues to > this day and it is certainly a conflict of "isms". Here's a key section from > chapter 22 of LILA... > > "But when that trial is seen as a conflict of social and intellectual values > its meaning emerges. Scopes and Darrow were defending academic freedom but, > more importantly, they were prosecuting the old static religious patterns of > the past. They gave intellectuals a warm feeling of arriving somewhere they > had been waiting to arrive for a long time. Church bigots, pillars of society > who for centuries had viciously attacked and defamed intellectuals who > disagreed with them, were now getting some of it back. > The hurricane of social forces released by the overthrow of society by > intellect was most strongly felt in Europe, particularly Germany, where the > effects of World War 1 were the most devastating. Communism and socialism, > programs for intellectual control of society, were confronted by the > reactionary forces of fascism, a program for the social control of intellect. > Nowhere were the intellectuals more intense in their determination to > overthrow the old order. Nowhere did the old order become more intent on > finding ways to destroy the excesses of the new intellectualism. > Phaedrus thought that no other historical or political analysis explains the > enormity of these forces as clearly as does the MOQ. The gigantic power of > socialism and fascism, which have overwhelmed this century, is explained by a > conflict of levels of evolution. This conflict explains the driving force > behind Hitler not as an insane search for power but as an all-consuming > glorification of social authority and hatred of intellectualism. His > anti-Semitism was fueled by anti-intellectualism. His exaltation of the > German volk was fueled by it. His fanatic persecution of any kind of > intellectual freedom was driven by it. > In the United Sates the economic and social upheaval was not so great as in > Europe, but Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal, nevertheless, become the > center of a lesser storm between social and intellectual forces. The New Deal > was many things, but at the center of it all was the belief that intellectual > planning by the government was necessary for society to regain its health." > > dmb continues: > Pirsig makes reference to a whole lot of other example in this chapter (as > well as chapter 24 and scattered throughout the book). For Chris and our > other European friends, the New Deal is classic American liberalism and the > conservative movement - along with the boys from the Chicago school of > ecomonics - has been taking it apart bit by bit for decades. They've been > propping up third-world dictators like Pinochet and its only getting worse by > the day. (Again, you gotta get "Disaster Capitalism" by Naomi Klein) The > YouTube video about the atheist soldier who is suing the army for being a > christian organization would only be the most recent example of how the > social-intellectual conflict shows up in the news on a daily basis. I don't > know if the situation at the US Air Force Academy makes national or > international news but around here it counts as local news and we've been > hearing about it for years. (The academy is in Colorado Springs, where many > leading fundamentalist leade rs > are headquartered.) Apparently, the students are pressured to "get saved", > to convert to fundamentalism and those who resist are made to suffer for it. > Add that to a thousand other assaults on intellectual values. Oh, and did you > hear? They gutted the fourth amendment the other day. Russ Feingold and a few > other brave souls are the other ones who objected. I mean, really, this is no > time to pretend that "isms" don't matter. Wake up and smell the fascism. > Please. Before its too late. > > Seriously, > dmb > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008 > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
