sorry to butt in but some nlp techniques seem to have pooped in here (just used one myself - did ya see it?). dave didn't say that we can't reject SOM - only you did peter. its SOM or MOQ (or some other similar monistic paradigm) - cannae have it both ways.
jeez that is the whole point - replacing SOM with MOQ...that's why we're here, that's why bob wrote and thought a lot and went a bit potty....its a big deal guys and gals....we are talking about a new reality, literally. we are suspended in a language that is divorced from the world around us. it is a legacy of the importation of the hebrew alphabet into greece....what resulted was a language composed of characters that had no connection to the world from which they were originally drawn. separation....plato's forms....christian heaven....descartes, copernicus, galilieo:SOM.... the damage this has done to the psyche, to the earth...is awe-inspiring...really amazing. such a little thing....hey boromir. --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Peter Corteen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Peter Corteen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [MD] Tit's > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Received: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 5:50 PM > Hi dmb, > > agreed that we can't reject SOM and that the > 'experience of not being able > to walk through is more real than the > "wall"'. SOM is an indispensable > convention that we are hard wired with. You can't have > mind without matter > and vice-versa; I acknowledge spirit only in terms of > intentionality. What > will be the characteristics of those beings who are not > limited by SOM? > > -Peter > > 2008/7/29 david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Peter said: > > SOM - mind and matter, it's more than a thinking > convention; we have no > > choice but to act as if it's so - just try > pretending the wall isn't there > > and try to walk through it, you can't. > > > > dmb says: > > The fact that we can't walk through walls remains > even if we reject SOM. > > Likewise, adopting the MOQ does not entail any claims > about being able to > > walk through walls. Think of it in terms of reversing > the relationship > > between "objects" and "quality". > SOM says the wall is an objective reality, > > a real substance, and its properties or qualities are > such that it can not > > be walked through. It has hardness and flatness. It > offers resistance when > > we put pressure on it. The MOQ says that these > qualities come first and that > > the "wall" is secondary, an interpretation > of the qualities felt in > > experience. And of course the idea of a > "wall" works well with many other > > ideas such as doors and windows. (The idea of a wall > also connects to paint, > > to floors, ceilings, houses, gardens, towns, Berlin > during the Cold War, > > China during the Mongol invasions and, the line > between church and state, a > > place of blindfolded executions, to a lesser or > greater degree, to every > > other idea in the whole lang > > uage system.) In the MOQ, the experience of not being > able to walk through > > is more real than the "wall". As in the hot > stove example, the "wall" is > > subsequently ascribed as the reason or cause of not > being able to walk > > through. Rejecting SOM in no way denies the experience > from which these > > ideas are derived, it is simply a matter of stepping > back to see that > > subjects and objects are conventional concepts, useful > concepts, rather than > > the starting point of reality or the cause of > experience. The MOQ says that > > experience comes first, that experience IS reality. In > that sense, not being > > able to walk through is as real as it gets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with > Windows Live Messenger. > > > > > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008 > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Find a better answer, faster with the new Yahoo!7 Search. www.yahoo7.com.au/search Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
