sorry dave, gav; not trying to put words into anyone's mouths but I did say you can't reject SOM. Likewise we are stuck with language and it's adopted child, aleph beth; embrace them as the ancestors of the homo superior.
2008/7/30 gav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > sorry to butt in but some nlp techniques seem to have pooped in here (just > used one myself - did ya see it?). > dave didn't say that we can't reject SOM - only you did peter. > its SOM or MOQ (or some other similar monistic paradigm) - cannae have it > both ways. > > jeez that is the whole point - replacing SOM with MOQ...that's why we're > here, that's why bob wrote and thought a lot and went a bit potty....its a > big deal guys and gals....we are talking about a new reality, literally. > > we are suspended in a language that is divorced from the world around us. > it is a legacy of the importation of the hebrew alphabet into greece....what > resulted was a language composed of characters that had no connection to the > world from which they were originally drawn. > separation....plato's forms....christian heaven....descartes, copernicus, > galilieo:SOM.... > the damage this has done to the psyche, to the earth...is > awe-inspiring...really amazing. > such a little thing....hey boromir. > > > > > --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Peter Corteen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > From: Peter Corteen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: [MD] Tit's > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Received: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 5:50 PM > > Hi dmb, > > > > agreed that we can't reject SOM and that the > > 'experience of not being able > > to walk through is more real than the > > "wall"'. SOM is an indispensable > > convention that we are hard wired with. You can't have > > mind without matter > > and vice-versa; I acknowledge spirit only in terms of > > intentionality. What > > will be the characteristics of those beings who are not > > limited by SOM? > > > > -Peter > > > > 2008/7/29 david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Peter said: > > > SOM - mind and matter, it's more than a thinking > > convention; we have no > > > choice but to act as if it's so - just try > > pretending the wall isn't there > > > and try to walk through it, you can't. > > > > > > dmb says: > > > The fact that we can't walk through walls remains > > even if we reject SOM. > > > Likewise, adopting the MOQ does not entail any claims > > about being able to > > > walk through walls. Think of it in terms of reversing > > the relationship > > > between "objects" and "quality". > > SOM says the wall is an objective reality, > > > a real substance, and its properties or qualities are > > such that it can not > > > be walked through. It has hardness and flatness. It > > offers resistance when > > > we put pressure on it. The MOQ says that these > > qualities come first and that > > > the "wall" is secondary, an interpretation > > of the qualities felt in > > > experience. And of course the idea of a > > "wall" works well with many other > > > ideas such as doors and windows. (The idea of a wall > > also connects to paint, > > > to floors, ceilings, houses, gardens, towns, Berlin > > during the Cold War, > > > China during the Mongol invasions and, the line > > between church and state, a > > > place of blindfolded executions, to a lesser or > > greater degree, to every > > > other idea in the whole lang > > > uage system.) In the MOQ, the experience of not being > > able to walk through > > > is more real than the "wall". As in the hot > > stove example, the "wall" is > > > subsequently ascribed as the reason or cause of not > > being able to walk > > > through. Rejecting SOM in no way denies the experience > > from which these > > > ideas are derived, it is simply a matter of stepping > > back to see that > > > subjects and objects are conventional concepts, useful > > concepts, rather than > > > the starting point of reality or the cause of > > experience. The MOQ says that > > > experience comes first, that experience IS reality. In > > that sense, not being > > > able to walk through is as real as it gets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with > > Windows Live Messenger. > > > > > > > > > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008 > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Find a better answer, faster with the new Yahoo!7 Search. > www.yahoo7.com.au/search > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
