Marsha.
15 Nov. you wrote:
> From Quality, static patterns of value emerge. Static patterns of
> value are conventional, conceptual constructs which the MOQ has
> divided into four categories. As far as how it sounds to you:
The static inorganic level=the universe, if it is "conventional" or not?
Then to Pirsig quotes:
> "The idea that the world is composed of nothing but moral value
> sounds impossible at first."
About the world being static inorganic morals I have no problems with
or objections to.
> "Of course it sounds peculiar at first and awkward and unnecessary to say
> that hydrogen and oxygen form water because it is moral to do so."
This is the overarching reality, but IMO it's a bit awkward to impose Q-
terms on science, its own intellectual (S/O) approach is far better ... if it
only recognizes its static level position.
> "It sounds quite blasphemous to put religion and insanity on an equal
> footing for comparison, but his point was not to undercut religion, only
> to illuminate insanity.
Wish we would soon put the basics behind us and start on these
aspects of the MOQ, they are absolutely fascinating.
> "This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is to
> trash all subject-object thought but that's not true."
MOQ's purpose is to trash SOM as metaphysically valid, that's for
sure, but it must find how SOM can be "encased" and I don't agree
with Pirsig's method as you may know.
> "In the Metaphysics of Quality 'causation' is a metaphysical term
> that can be replaced by 'value.' To say that 'A causes B' or to say
> that 'B values precondition A' is to say the same thing. The
> difference is one of words only. Instead of saying 'A magnet causes
> iron filings to move toward it,' you can say 'Iron filings value
> movement toward a magnet.' Scientifically speaking neither statement is
> more true than the other. It may sound a little awkward, but that's a
> matter of linguistic custom, not science. "
This is Pirsig's effort to create a Q-variant of all scientific disciplines,
which is superfluous once SOM is relegated the role as MOQ's
intellectual level. Causation in its physics role is useful, as are all S/O
tools, it's only in a SOM context they are paradoxical (platypus).
----------------
> What of my point that there may be a visual or auditory piece to
> conceptual patterns (spovs). Close you eyes and think about zebras.
> There should be a composite of images brought to mind with that spov.
> Or think about an eyeball. Again there should be a composite of
> images brought to mind. These images accompany language. Think about
> a train and the sound of a train whistle is brought to mind. These
> are not biological experiences. There are conceptual experiences, as
> in memory. That was my point.
I see your point, but I'm afraid we talk past each other. If we accept the
concept/non-concept (which is a S/O variant) as absolute we are back
in SOM-land. The closing of eyes exercise (why not dreams?) and
imaging things also takes place at the bio. level, without the animals
knowing it to be "imaginary". As did social level people, but here
dreams for instance were messages from whatever ruled their
existence, and visualizing things could alter the course of events - a
magic existence. It was intellect that made these imaginary ..whatever
to JUST take place in a subjective (non-existent) realm without any
connection or impact in the objective realm that went its course
governed by natural laws.
Talking more past?
Bo
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