Yes, stories are a lot of fun, and revealing too. As many will say (J. Campell, for example), myths are metaphors for something fundamental (Quality) being revealed in human experience. The trouble is that trying to categorize that something, immediately creates a system of understanding that leaves everything out.
Metaphors are useful. If Quality were the ocean, then SQ are the waves, and DQ would be the currents, or the waves ever appearing and disappearing. What do you think? Willblake2 On Apr 1, 2009, at 2:20:02 PM, "Joseph Maurer" <[email protected]> wrote: > On Monday 30 March Joe muses: ³Can I make sense of any of it with DQ undefined? Probably not.² I was educated in Thomistic metaphysics and the undefined does not really exist. The metaphysical supposition was that the mind creates intentional existence for an abstracted idea of the object, so the undefined like ³nothing² exists in a mind, and I can use it as a word. But DQ is not ³nothing² in MOQ. It is undefined quality in relation to SQ, defined quality. IMO MOQ DQ/SQ. SOL manifests as the intellectual order in evolution, MOQ.. Thanks Bo! When I jump on my horse and ride off in all directions, ³Nothing ain¹t worth nothing, but its free!² I am merely poetically reminding myself to study hard. ³Talk, it¹s only talk.² Consciousness at the social level remains undefined, and imaginary heroes and gods are embodied in consciousness as possible. Heroes at the intellectual level lose their mystical aura and become instinctive modelers of DQ, creating a defining perception for undefined Quality, DQ, until the next level of evolution occurs. Stories are a lot of fun. Joe On 3/31/09 9:46 PM, "markhsmit" <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey Joe, > > I like your definition of evolution, in that sense it fits with my conception > of quality. But why define at all? The more I define, the more I am trapped. > Words are traps. Creating systems are traps. Sometimes traps are really > cool, sometimes a trap will set you free. If I trap the trap and turn it > inside out, then the trap is everything and everything is in the trap. > > Talk, it's only talk > Arguments, agreements, advice, answers, > Articulate announcements > It's only talk > Talk, it's only talk > Babble, burble, banter, bicker bicker bicker > Brouhaha, boulderdash, ballyhoo > It's only talk > Back talk > Talk talk talk, it's only talk > Comments, cliches, commentary, controversy > Chatter, chit-chat, chit-chat, chit-chat, > Conversation, contradiction, criticism > It's only talk > Cheap talk > Talk, talk, it's only talk > Debates, discussions > These are words with a D this time > Dialogue, dualogue, diatribe, > Dissention, declamation > Double talk, double talk > Talk, talk, it's all talk > Too much talk > Small talk > Talk that trash > Expressions, editorials, expugnations, exclamations, enfadulations > It's all talk > Elephant talk, elephant talk, elephant talk > > Willblake2 > > > On Mar 31, 2009, at 12:58:52 PM, "Joseph Maurer" <[email protected]> wrote: > On Monday 30 March 2009 7:49 PM Markhsmit writes to Joe: > > <snip> > My point about evolution is this: Is it useful as a metaphor for Quality? > As such, does it convey the same feeling to you as Quality does? My > question, to the group consciousness of this forum, is whether Evolution > fits into your concept of quality, and how. I don't believe the concept of > evolution is necessarily logical, maybe quite to the contrary, but, > nonetheless it is satisfying for many. > > Another question would be, is logic necessary for the explanation of > Quality? > > I have enjoyed many of the short stories conveying feelings through > metaphors written in this forum. Thank you all. > > Willblake2 > > Hi Markhsmit and all, > > Evolution (undefinable order) is a rational description for a moral order. > If something created is different, with no order it is merely fanciful.. Do, > Re, Mi_Fa, Sol, La Ti_Do describes an unlimited set order in sound. I like > it as an analogy for evolution. I exist in a living symphony. I expect color > is another undefined repeating order infra-red ultra-violet. Wow! A turn > on is worth something. Call it evolution. > > Can I make sense of any of it with DQ undefined? Probably not. Living in > sound and color is worth living. Color form, sound form, living form, > evolving form keeps things interesting. Who wants to be bored. But I don¹t > remember the excitement. I am bored! I just do what I do following my > nose. Yet, somehow I get where I am going, and then it is over. I¹ve got > to remember. > > Joe > > > > On 3/30/09 7:49 PM, "markhsmit" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:34:12 PM, "Joseph Maurer" <[email protected]> wrote: >> On Sunday 29 March 2009 10:15 PM Marhsmit writes: >> >>> This is a good place to start. The tool I am using is dialogue. >>> >>> Perhaps it is the burden of scientific training that I carry, but I >>> have trouble with an evolutionary law of order. In physics we learn >>> that the tendency of everything is towards greater disorder or >>> increased entropy. If we apply Quality only to life, then there is >>> an increasing disorder as more species are being formed. If what >>> MOQ means is order in terms of complexity, then maybe I can >>> understand, at least for a part of what I experience. >>> Evolution, in my mind, implies a tendency. Such as the evolution >>> of gas from liquid when heat is applied. Or the evolution of life >>> to match the evolution of life (or natural selection). It is this >>> tendency of Quality that I have difficulty with. That there is >>> somehow a hierarchy in Quality. I don't believe that I am in denial >>> of the non-duality of all, and believe consciousness (for lack of a >>> better word) to be theexpression of all. >>> What I do have trouble with is the notion that Quality is changing >>> over time. Perhaps the word evolution is not the correct one to use >>> in terms of Quality, at least for my understanding. >>> >>> I would like to carry MOQ beyond the authors' start, which I believe >>> is the purpose of this forum. Pirsig has planted a seed. This >>> concept of evolution requires a bit more work in my mind. >>> >>> Thanks >> >> Hi Markhsmit, >> >> Dialogue puts the focus of my attention on logic. I make up the rules for >> my logic? Is love logical? Is hitting a baseball traveling 100 MPH >> logical? Is getting pregnant logical? Is blinking my eyes logical? Is >> liking ice cream logical? Are yes/no logical? I have been put in jail.. No >> logic for me in some laws! Socrates does not like logic! He drank the >> Hemlock and died! Did he abhor mathematics? I don¹t think so. There is >> something more. >> >> Evolution is not logical. Evolution is an illogical order. Freedom is not >> logical. Something is undefined in dialogue, my experience, my >> suppositions. Undefined/Defined, DQ/SQ what is logic? Definition! I have >> been wrong! I have been right! >> >> Joe >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> I don't believe that dialogue has to involve logic, much dialogue does not. >> Sharing stories or feelings is not logic. Much can be learned without >> logic. >> Perhaps Western philosophy is logic; I don't know since I only dabble in it >> and have no real training as to the rules of logic.. I imagine that logic >> contains a bunch of "if, then" kind of stuff. Math is OK, it is all about >> equivalence. "This equals that", only that this is said in different way >> from >> that, it is nothing more. Reductionist logic has no purpose other than to >> say the same thing only with different words, kind of like mathematics.. >> >> Dialogue leaves room for lateral thinking which takes leaps from one logic to >> another, then builds, only to leap again. Dialogue is useful through >> metaphors, "this is kind of like that, in this way..." It can become like a >> painting, or like poetry where the meaning is only in the brain of the >> receiver. When such meaning coincides in a meaningful way with another's, it >> is elating. There is no logic in reading or writing these posts, unless >> enjoyment or significance is logical. >> >> My point about evolution is this: Is it useful as a metaphor for Quality? >> As >> such, does it convey the same feeling to you as Quality does? My question, to >> the group consciousness of this forum, is whether Evolution fits into your >> concept of quality, and how. I don't believe the concept of evolution is >> necessarily logical, maybe quite to the contrary, but, nonetheless it is >> satisfying for many. >> >> Another question would be, is logic necessary for the explanation of >> Quality? >> >> I have enjoyed many of the short stories conveying feelings through metaphors >> written in this forum. Thank you all. >> >> Willblake2 >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
