On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:34:12 PM, "Joseph Maurer" <[email protected]> wrote: On Sunday 29 March 2009 10:15 PM Marhsmit writes:
> This is a good place to start. The tool I am using is dialogue. > > Perhaps it is the burden of scientific training that I carry, but I > have trouble with an evolutionary law of order. In physics we learn > that the tendency of everything is towards greater disorder or > increased entropy. If we apply Quality only to life, then there is > an increasing disorder as more species are being formed. If what > MOQ means is order in terms of complexity, then maybe I can > understand, at least for a part of what I experience. > Evolution, in my mind, implies a tendency. Such as the evolution > of gas from liquid when heat is applied. Or the evolution of life > to match the evolution of life (or natural selection). It is this > tendency of Quality that I have difficulty with. That there is > somehow a hierarchy in Quality. I don't believe that I am in denial > of the non-duality of all, and believe consciousness (for lack of a > better word) to be theexpression of all. > What I do have trouble with is the notion that Quality is changing > over time. Perhaps the word evolution is not the correct one to use > in terms of Quality, at least for my understanding. > > I would like to carry MOQ beyond the authors' start, which I believe > is the purpose of this forum. Pirsig has planted a seed. This > concept of evolution requires a bit more work in my mind. > > Thanks Hi Markhsmit, Dialogue puts the focus of my attention on logic. I make up the rules for my logic? Is love logical? Is hitting a baseball traveling 100 MPH logical? Is getting pregnant logical? Is blinking my eyes logical? Is liking ice cream logical? Are yes/no logical? I have been put in jail. No logic for me in some laws! Socrates does not like logic! He drank the Hemlock and died! Did he abhor mathematics? I don¹t think so. There is something more. Evolution is not logical. Evolution is an illogical order. Freedom is not logical. Something is undefined in dialogue, my experience, my suppositions. Undefined/Defined, DQ/SQ what is logic? Definition! I have been wrong! I have been right! Joe Hi Joe, I don't believe that dialogue has to involve logic, much dialogue does not. Sharing stories or feelings is not logic. Much can be learned without logic. Perhaps Western philosophy is logic; I don't know since I only dabble in it and have no real training as to the rules of logic.. I imagine that logic contains a bunch of "if, then" kind of stuff. Math is OK, it is all about equivalence. "This equals that", only that this is said in different way from that, it is nothing more. Reductionist logic has no purpose other than to say the same thing only with different words, kind of like mathematics. Dialogue leaves room for lateral thinking which takes leaps from one logic to another, then builds, only to leap again. Dialogue is useful through metaphors, "this is kind of like that, in this way..." It can become like a painting, or like poetry where the meaning is only in the brain of the receiver. When such meaning coincides in a meaningful way with another's, it is elating. There is no logic in reading or writing these posts, unless enjoyment or significance is logical. My point about evolution is this: Is it useful as a metaphor for Quality? As such, does it convey the same feeling to you as Quality does? My question, to the group consciousness of this forum, is whether Evolution fits into your concept of quality, and how. I don't believe the concept of evolution is necessarily logical, maybe quite to the contrary, but, nonetheless it is satisfying for many. Another question would be, is logic necessary for the explanation of Quality? I have enjoyed many of the short stories conveying feelings through metaphors written in this forum. Thank you all. Willblake2 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
