Hi Craig
Stand firm, you made my day be speaking against the idealism that
has infested the MOQ discussion. The decay started by the latter-day
Pirsig who - in "Lila's Child" introduced the "ideas come first"
interpretation, then Paul Turner who is the Jesuit willing to defend the
(owner of the) faith wherever it leads. He converted DMB and now as
he is sanctified he has convinced the lesser mind that this is the
correct interpretation. These midgets don't see that if this gets hold of
the MOQ it turns into a subsidiary of SOM - of its idealist division -
and all it's beauty and strength is gone. In ZAMM there is nothing
about ideas coming early or late, rather that ideas where the chief
instigator of SOM - Plato's - eternal (objective) component of the
newfangled S/O aggregate. The fact that it went through a 180 degree
turn with Aristotle - substance now becoming the objective part and
by and by "ideas" becoming mind patterns and thus the subjective
part - does not matter. To postulate inorganic VALUE patterns as
DQ's first fallout does not mean a somist materialist (objectivst) turn
(as Ron accused me of) accepting the DQ/SQ axiom has turned the
table from SOM to MOQ. Again thanks Craig, I thought all MD had
fallen for the "ideas first" hoax,
Bodvar
On 10 Jul 2009 at 21:59, Steve Peterson wrote:
> > Hi Craig,
>
>
> > [Steve]
> >> DQ as pre-intellectual makes sense from the empirical perspective
> >> where time itself is not a given but derived from experience. From
> >> this perspective ideas come first
> > [Craig, previously]
> >> This seems contradictory. If the empirical perspective is
> >> "pre-intellectual", then how can it be a perspective where
> >> "ideas come first"?
> > [Steve]
> >> Ideas come first as in the dynamic/static split. They are the
> >> first
> >> static patterns
> >
> Craig:
> > Pirsig mentions carbon static patterns, which must preceed ideas by
> > millions of years.
>
> Steve:
> From the historical point of view, carbon does indeed come before
> ideas, but the historical point of view itself is an idea which
> precedes the idea of carbon. So from an empirical point of view,
> ideas come before carbon.
>
>
>
>
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