I have to chuckle Ron. First Bo and then Craig misconstruing your very simple logic, though I suspect Craig was being deliberately provocative. And Bo actually criticising your display of flawed logic.
I wonder how many times we will recycle this map and terrain debate. The idea of the MoQ as an intellectual pattern vs the content of the MoQ (described by the MoQ idea, but not the same as the idea) as pre-existing reality waiting to be experienced on every level. As Bo knows I share some sympathy with his view that Pirsig contributed some confusion by the way he latterly tried to explain it, but how hard can it be for intelligent people to escape from that confusion ? Far from making MoQ a mere sub-set of SOM Bo, it makes SOM a pattern across the social and intellectual levels of the MoQ. Regards Ian On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 3:18 PM, X Acto<[email protected]> wrote: > Craig, Bo > On the surface, it seems a pragmatic practical distinction > and for the most part it is, it is very useful in terms of understanding > causual relationships. But in this case, in the context of what > I'm trying to explain in terms of MoQ, is that this distiction falls > into the catagory of ideas, useful practical ideas, but ideas > none the less. I'm trying to explain what Bo percieves as Pirsigs fall from > grace > in his eyes. > -Ron > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 2:33:45 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] Empirical and Historical > > Hi Craig > > 11 July you wrote: > >> From the historical point of view: Carbon (billions of years ago) Idea >> of the helicopter (16 th century) Idea of carbon (19 th century) >> Helicopter (20 th century) Let´s say the historical point of view >> itself is an idea, so it´s somewhere in the above sequence. But this >> gives us no reason to reverse the priority of carbon & the idea of >> carbon. > > You beat me with this comment to Ron's and you go to the core of the > idea nonsense (as well as the language ditto in the form of the > Quality/Concept thesis) Ideas (or thoughts) as what goes on in minds > is SOM, and if MOQ's 4th. level is made equal to SOM's mind it > inherits all SOM's plartypuses. > > You may be too nice to join me in my criticism of (what I call latter- > day) Pirsig as the one who started this undermining of MOQ's > purpose which is to do away with SOM's ideas/matter mess. This is > done by making the aforementioned mess into its own intellectual > level (see ZAMM) The S/O distinction is the highest value, but its > static quality explains why it produces platypuses if treated as > absolute. > > Bodvar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> [Xacto] >> >> > the idea of anything coming before experience >> > is, in fact, an idea. >> >> >> >> Let´s say the historical point of view itself is an idea, so it´s >> somewhere in the above sequence. But this gives us no reason to >> reverse the priority of carbon & the idea of carbon. >> >> >> [Xacto] >> >> > the idea of anything coming before experience >> > is, in fact, an idea. >> >> >> >> >> >> So the idea of experience comes before experience? >> >> Craig >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
