The law of non contradictions arguement is one of syllogistic meaning, Clarity in statements.
----- Original Message ---- From: MarshaV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 4:00:09 PM Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure" Ron, Well, there is Aristotle's argument against Protagoras. Marsha On Jan 2, 2010, at 3:35 PM, X Acto wrote: > Marsha, > Aristotle makes an interesting arguement > for certainty in meaning. meaning. not "reality". > He seems to side with you that reality is relative. > -Ron > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 11:35:07 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure" > > Ron, > > I confess, I've never bothered much with Aristotle, and I'm more than a > little concerned with your, or Aristotle's, use of the word 'certainty'. To > me 'certainty' translates into wishful thinking. You know I'm partial to > 'relative'. > > Marsha > > > > > > > > On Jan 2, 2010, at 11:24 AM, X Acto wrote: > >> Marsha, >> Nope, just a tool for building certainty >> in meaning in the context of scientific >> inquirey. >> Aknowledging experience is relative >> in flux and ever dynamic. >> He takes time explaining why >> the greatest philosphers of the day >> fall short in their explainations.He >> emphasiszes that the careful construction >> of meaning is the only "knowledge" >> that may be derrived from experience. >> >> I'm still reading but thats what I get so far. >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 10:36:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure" >> >> >> Happy new year Ron, >> >> So, the Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Excluded >> Middle are just tools and were never intended to be used to >> determine Reality? >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 2, 2010, at 9:43 AM, X Acto wrote: >> >>> Marsha, >>>> From what I understand of my reading of Aristotles metaphysics >>> it sure does. Aristotle starts from the premise of the dynamic >>> and the relative making the arguement for distinctions or measure >>> for better understanding. True/false, non contradiction, are tools >>> to create order from the flux. Conventions. Useful in the building >>> of certain types of knowledge, scientific. The metaphysics is a theory >>> on the building of scientific meaning. >>> >>> To look back through a scientific dominated society at it as >>> a statement about the laws of "reality" is taking it a bit out >>> of context in my own opinion. >>> >>> best wishes for a happy new year >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 8:09:41 AM >>> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure" >>> >>> Ian, Matt, >>> >>> I have been haunted by something I read a while ago: All knowledge is to >>> some degree >>> false because it is to some degree incomplete. Wouldn't this make >>> knowledge both >>> true and false? And this morning I read that Feyerbend called the laws of >>> formal logic naive. >>> Margolis says much about adding Indeterminate to the bipolar truth-values: >>> True or False, but >>> I'm finding his book very difficult because he mentions dozens of >>> philosophers (briefly stating >>> their argument) I have never heard of, and who seem to have some >>> professional stake in >>> this game. But I wonder that DQ is present in every event and it is >>> indeterminate. Hmmm. >>> >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 4:44 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>> >>>> Nice one Matt, >>>> >>>> I'd seen tha ambiguity on the measure / rationality aspect before but >>>> not the things / experience side of it. Very interesting. >>>> >>>> Ian >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Matt Kundert >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I ran across something interesting today. I didn't realize this, but >>>>> Protagoras' famous aphorism "Man is the measure of all things..." has an >>>>> ambiguity in the English (at least for amateurs who only read >>>>> translations and dabble in Greek words). >>>>> >>>>> I'd always assumed that what standardly gets translated as "measure" was >>>>> related to the Latin "ratio," and that old saw about how "reason" and >>>>> mathematical "measuring" are ancient relations. etc. Well, the Latin >>>>> "ratio" is the translation of "logos," which all us amateurs recognize as >>>>> one of the more famous Greek words: reason, thought, account, measure, >>>>> word, etc. >>>>> >>>>> The Greek word translated as "measure" in Protagoras' aphorism is _not_ >>>>> Logos, but >>>>> >>>>> Metron >>>>> >>>>> "Metro" in modern Greek is still "measure." However, what I ran across >>>>> which made much of what the actual Greek word is was an alternative >>>>> translation by Mario Untersteiner (often considered a renegade scholar by >>>>> respected Anglophones I've run across), who wrote a book on the Sophists >>>>> that is almost impossible to find in English for under $50 (been out of >>>>> print for half a century): >>>>> >>>>> "Man is the master of all experiences..." >>>>> >>>>> I have no bead on what Greek word (or phrase) "things" or "experiences" >>>>> translates. All I can identify is "metron" and "anthropos" (the >>>>> gender-neutral "man"). But I imagine "experiences" sounds even better to >>>>> Pirsigians, whatever one might think of "measure vs. master." >>>>> >>>>> Matt >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. >>>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _______________________________________________________________________ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... 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