Bye for now...
On Jan 2, 2010, at 8:35 PM, X Acto wrote: > The law of non contradictions arguement is one of syllogistic meaning, > Clarity in statements. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 4:00:09 PM > Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure" > > > > > Ron, > > Well, there is Aristotle's argument against Protagoras. > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > On Jan 2, 2010, at 3:35 PM, X Acto wrote: > >> Marsha, >> Aristotle makes an interesting arguement >> for certainty in meaning. meaning. not "reality". >> He seems to side with you that reality is relative. >> -Ron >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 11:35:07 AM >> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure" >> >> Ron, >> >> I confess, I've never bothered much with Aristotle, and I'm more than a >> little concerned with your, or Aristotle's, use of the word 'certainty'. To >> me 'certainty' translates into wishful thinking. You know I'm partial to >> 'relative'. >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 2, 2010, at 11:24 AM, X Acto wrote: >> >>> Marsha, >>> Nope, just a tool for building certainty >>> in meaning in the context of scientific >>> inquirey. >>> Aknowledging experience is relative >>> in flux and ever dynamic. >>> He takes time explaining why >>> the greatest philosphers of the day >>> fall short in their explainations.He >>> emphasiszes that the careful construction >>> of meaning is the only "knowledge" >>> that may be derrived from experience. >>> >>> I'm still reading but thats what I get so far. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 10:36:23 AM >>> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure" >>> >>> >>> Happy new year Ron, >>> >>> So, the Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Excluded >>> Middle are just tools and were never intended to be used to >>> determine Reality? >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 9:43 AM, X Acto wrote: >>> >>>> Marsha, >>>>> From what I understand of my reading of Aristotles metaphysics >>>> it sure does. Aristotle starts from the premise of the dynamic >>>> and the relative making the arguement for distinctions or measure >>>> for better understanding. True/false, non contradiction, are tools >>>> to create order from the flux. Conventions. Useful in the building >>>> of certain types of knowledge, scientific. The metaphysics is a theory >>>> on the building of scientific meaning. >>>> >>>> To look back through a scientific dominated society at it as >>>> a statement about the laws of "reality" is taking it a bit out >>>> of context in my own opinion. >>>> >>>> best wishes for a happy new year >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 8:09:41 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure" >>>> >>>> Ian, Matt, >>>> >>>> I have been haunted by something I read a while ago: All knowledge is to >>>> some degree >>>> false because it is to some degree incomplete. Wouldn't this make >>>> knowledge both >>>> true and false? And this morning I read that Feyerbend called the laws of >>>> formal logic naive. >>>> Margolis says much about adding Indeterminate to the bipolar truth-values: >>>> True or False, but >>>> I'm finding his book very difficult because he mentions dozens of >>>> philosophers (briefly stating >>>> their argument) I have never heard of, and who seem to have some >>>> professional stake in >>>> this game. But I wonder that DQ is present in every event and it is >>>> indeterminate. Hmmm. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 4:44 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>> >>>>> Nice one Matt, >>>>> >>>>> I'd seen tha ambiguity on the measure / rationality aspect before but >>>>> not the things / experience side of it. Very interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Ian >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Matt Kundert >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I ran across something interesting today. I didn't realize this, but >>>>>> Protagoras' famous aphorism "Man is the measure of all things..." has an >>>>>> ambiguity in the English (at least for amateurs who only read >>>>>> translations and dabble in Greek words). >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd always assumed that what standardly gets translated as "measure" was >>>>>> related to the Latin "ratio," and that old saw about how "reason" and >>>>>> mathematical "measuring" are ancient relations. etc. Well, the Latin >>>>>> "ratio" is the translation of "logos," which all us amateurs recognize >>>>>> as one of the more famous Greek words: reason, thought, account, >>>>>> measure, word, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Greek word translated as "measure" in Protagoras' aphorism is _not_ >>>>>> Logos, but >>>>>> >>>>>> Metron >>>>>> >>>>>> "Metro" in modern Greek is still "measure." However, what I ran across >>>>>> which made much of what the actual Greek word is was an alternative >>>>>> translation by Mario Untersteiner (often considered a renegade scholar >>>>>> by respected Anglophones I've run across), who wrote a book on the >>>>>> Sophists that is almost impossible to find in English for under $50 >>>>>> (been out of print for half a century): >>>>>> >>>>>> "Man is the master of all experiences..." >>>>>> >>>>>> I have no bead on what Greek word (or phrase) "things" or "experiences" >>>>>> translates. All I can identify is "metron" and "anthropos" (the >>>>>> gender-neutral "man"). But I imagine "experiences" sounds even better >>>>>> to Pirsigians, whatever one might think of "measure vs. master." >>>>>> >>>>>> Matt >>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. >>>>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _______________________________________________________________________ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
