Ron,
Well, there is Aristotle's argument against Protagoras.
Marsha
On Jan 2, 2010, at 3:35 PM, X Acto wrote:
> Marsha,
> Aristotle makes an interesting arguement
> for certainty in meaning. meaning. not "reality".
> He seems to side with you that reality is relative.
> -Ron
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: MarshaV <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 11:35:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure"
>
> Ron,
>
> I confess, I've never bothered much with Aristotle, and I'm more than a
> little concerned with your, or Aristotle's, use of the word 'certainty'. To
> me 'certainty' translates into wishful thinking. You know I'm partial to
> 'relative'.
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 2, 2010, at 11:24 AM, X Acto wrote:
>
>> Marsha,
>> Nope, just a tool for building certainty
>> in meaning in the context of scientific
>> inquirey.
>> Aknowledging experience is relative
>> in flux and ever dynamic.
>> He takes time explaining why
>> the greatest philosphers of the day
>> fall short in their explainations.He
>> emphasiszes that the careful construction
>> of meaning is the only "knowledge"
>> that may be derrived from experience.
>>
>> I'm still reading but thats what I get so far.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: MarshaV <[email protected]>
>> To: [email protected]
>> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 10:36:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure"
>>
>>
>> Happy new year Ron,
>>
>> So, the Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Excluded
>> Middle are just tools and were never intended to be used to
>> determine Reality?
>>
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 9:43 AM, X Acto wrote:
>>
>>> Marsha,
>>>> From what I understand of my reading of Aristotles metaphysics
>>> it sure does. Aristotle starts from the premise of the dynamic
>>> and the relative making the arguement for distinctions or measure
>>> for better understanding. True/false, non contradiction, are tools
>>> to create order from the flux. Conventions. Useful in the building
>>> of certain types of knowledge, scientific. The metaphysics is a theory
>>> on the building of scientific meaning.
>>>
>>> To look back through a scientific dominated society at it as
>>> a statement about the laws of "reality" is taking it a bit out
>>> of context in my own opinion.
>>>
>>> best wishes for a happy new year
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: MarshaV <[email protected]>
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 8:09:41 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure"
>>>
>>> Ian, Matt,
>>>
>>> I have been haunted by something I read a while ago: All knowledge is to
>>> some degree
>>> false because it is to some degree incomplete. Wouldn't this make
>>> knowledge both
>>> true and false? And this morning I read that Feyerbend called the laws of
>>> formal logic naive.
>>> Margolis says much about adding Indeterminate to the bipolar truth-values:
>>> True or False, but
>>> I'm finding his book very difficult because he mentions dozens of
>>> philosophers (briefly stating
>>> their argument) I have never heard of, and who seem to have some
>>> professional stake in
>>> this game. But I wonder that DQ is present in every event and it is
>>> indeterminate. Hmmm.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Marsha
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 4:44 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice one Matt,
>>>>
>>>> I'd seen tha ambiguity on the measure / rationality aspect before but
>>>> not the things / experience side of it. Very interesting.
>>>>
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Matt Kundert
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I ran across something interesting today. I didn't realize this, but
>>>>> Protagoras' famous aphorism "Man is the measure of all things..." has an
>>>>> ambiguity in the English (at least for amateurs who only read
>>>>> translations and dabble in Greek words).
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd always assumed that what standardly gets translated as "measure" was
>>>>> related to the Latin "ratio," and that old saw about how "reason" and
>>>>> mathematical "measuring" are ancient relations. etc. Well, the Latin
>>>>> "ratio" is the translation of "logos," which all us amateurs recognize as
>>>>> one of the more famous Greek words: reason, thought, account, measure,
>>>>> word, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Greek word translated as "measure" in Protagoras' aphorism is _not_
>>>>> Logos, but
>>>>>
>>>>> Metron
>>>>>
>>>>> "Metro" in modern Greek is still "measure." However, what I ran across
>>>>> which made much of what the actual Greek word is was an alternative
>>>>> translation by Mario Untersteiner (often considered a renegade scholar by
>>>>> respected Anglophones I've run across), who wrote a book on the Sophists
>>>>> that is almost impossible to find in English for under $50 (been out of
>>>>> print for half a century):
>>>>>
>>>>> "Man is the master of all experiences..."
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no bead on what Greek word (or phrase) "things" or "experiences"
>>>>> translates. All I can identify is "metron" and "anthropos" (the
>>>>> gender-neutral "man"). But I imagine "experiences" sounds even better to
>>>>> Pirsigians, whatever one might think of "measure vs. master."
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt
>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
>>>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>>>> Archives:
>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>>>>>
>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>>> Archives:
>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> Archives:
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> Archives:
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>
>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
_______________________________________________________________________
Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
