Ron, I confess, I've never bothered much with Aristotle, and I'm more than a little concerned with your, or Aristotle's, use of the word 'certainty'. To me 'certainty' translates into wishful thinking. You know I'm partial to 'relative'.
Marsha On Jan 2, 2010, at 11:24 AM, X Acto wrote: > Marsha, > Nope, just a tool for building certainty > in meaning in the context of scientific > inquirey. > Aknowledging experience is relative > in flux and ever dynamic. > He takes time explaining why > the greatest philosphers of the day > fall short in their explainations.He > emphasiszes that the careful construction > of meaning is the only "knowledge" > that may be derrived from experience. > > I'm still reading but thats what I get so far. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 10:36:23 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure" > > > Happy new year Ron, > > So, the Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Excluded > Middle are just tools and were never intended to be used to > determine Reality? > > > Marsha > > > > > On Jan 2, 2010, at 9:43 AM, X Acto wrote: > >> Marsha, >>> From what I understand of my reading of Aristotles metaphysics >> it sure does. Aristotle starts from the premise of the dynamic >> and the relative making the arguement for distinctions or measure >> for better understanding. True/false, non contradiction, are tools >> to create order from the flux. Conventions. Useful in the building >> of certain types of knowledge, scientific. The metaphysics is a theory >> on the building of scientific meaning. >> >> To look back through a scientific dominated society at it as >> a statement about the laws of "reality" is taking it a bit out >> of context in my own opinion. >> >> best wishes for a happy new year >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 8:09:41 AM >> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure" >> >> Ian, Matt, >> >> I have been haunted by something I read a while ago: All knowledge is to >> some degree >> false because it is to some degree incomplete. Wouldn't this make knowledge >> both >> true and false? And this morning I read that Feyerbend called the laws of >> formal logic naive. >> Margolis says much about adding Indeterminate to the bipolar truth-values: >> True or False, but >> I'm finding his book very difficult because he mentions dozens of >> philosophers (briefly stating >> their argument) I have never heard of, and who seem to have some >> professional stake in >> this game. But I wonder that DQ is present in every event and it is >> indeterminate. Hmmm. >> >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 2, 2010, at 4:44 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >> >>> Nice one Matt, >>> >>> I'd seen tha ambiguity on the measure / rationality aspect before but >>> not the things / experience side of it. Very interesting. >>> >>> Ian >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Matt Kundert >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I ran across something interesting today. I didn't realize this, but >>>> Protagoras' famous aphorism "Man is the measure of all things..." has an >>>> ambiguity in the English (at least for amateurs who only read translations >>>> and dabble in Greek words). >>>> >>>> I'd always assumed that what standardly gets translated as "measure" was >>>> related to the Latin "ratio," and that old saw about how "reason" and >>>> mathematical "measuring" are ancient relations. etc. Well, the Latin >>>> "ratio" is the translation of "logos," which all us amateurs recognize as >>>> one of the more famous Greek words: reason, thought, account, measure, >>>> word, etc. >>>> >>>> The Greek word translated as "measure" in Protagoras' aphorism is _not_ >>>> Logos, but >>>> >>>> Metron >>>> >>>> "Metro" in modern Greek is still "measure." However, what I ran across >>>> which made much of what the actual Greek word is was an alternative >>>> translation by Mario Untersteiner (often considered a renegade scholar by >>>> respected Anglophones I've run across), who wrote a book on the Sophists >>>> that is almost impossible to find in English for under $50 (been out of >>>> print for half a century): >>>> >>>> "Man is the master of all experiences..." >>>> >>>> I have no bead on what Greek word (or phrase) "things" or "experiences" >>>> translates. All I can identify is "metron" and "anthropos" (the >>>> gender-neutral "man"). But I imagine "experiences" sounds even better to >>>> Pirsigians, whatever one might think of "measure vs. master." >>>> >>>> Matt >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. >>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _______________________________________________________________________ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
