Thanks Marsha, Yes I do need to finish Lila. I'm now re-reading zamm where the concept is introduced. So far I see an interesting connection between DW and Prisig. The difference is that they try to solve the same problem from different religious, or theological, or if you prefer, philosophical stances.
I didn't make it clear in my last post, but DW's work makes it abundantly clear, that all thought, all philosophy, is based in thoughts about Divinity. It depends on how you define divinity, and there is a common set of assumptions behind all thoughts of God. And for Prisig, "Quality" fits that definition. He has deified quality. Not only this but a close look shows that all metaphysics, the roots of the tree of knowledge, are grounded in theistic assumptions. The metaphysical roots that Prisig rightly says we are changing as a culture, are growing in a theolocial soil, whether this is consciously seen or acknowledged. All thought has to start from some "uncaused" reality, that is independent from the rest of reality and the cause of the rest of reality. This uncaused something is beyond reason and logical explanation. It just is, and it has to be posited by everyone, with all It's inherent paradoxes, mystery, and suprarationality. Wow! The mailman just came to my door with all 4 volumes of DW opus-The New Critique of Theoretical Thought. As you have time, do some research on DW, I think you will find many intriguing parallels and even solutions to Prisigs moq. Look forward to our future discussions, Jon On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 2:07 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Greetings Jon, > > Thank you for supplying this information. At least, there is now some > idea concerning Dooyeweered. This list is heavily involved in the > Metaphysics of Quality which RMP develops in LILA, and it might be > beneficial if you complete your reading it. > > There is additional reading you can do concerning the MoQ: > Lila's Child by Dan Glover (Amazon) > MOQ Textbook by Anthony McWatt > http://robertpirsig.org/news.htm (some great papers to read) > > Personally, I am not a theist so I cannot help you with your > theological point-of-view. > > > Marsha > > > > > > On Apr 12, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: > > > Hi Marsha, > > DW identifies 15 different aspects, but doesn't limit reality to just > > those-there could be more. Aspects are the levels, the different way > reality > > can be expressed. There is a logical, a numerical, an aesthetic, an > ethical, > > a juridicial, linguistic, physical, bioitici=-, political, etc. aspect to > > reality. Prisig seems to reduce all reality to only one, the aesthetic. > > > > I haven't read all of Lila so I'm unclear on the extent of Prisig's > theory. > > He seems to have extended it to 4 aspects or levels.. In DW each sphere > is > > sovereign unto itself-it has laws applying only to its own sphere. And > each > > sphere can only be understood in relation to the others. There is a > horizon, > > or limit to our knowledge. > > > > DW, following a Biblical world view, sees the human heart as the center > of > > our being. Theoretical thought is not neutral, but is determined by the > > attitude of the heart. All people, all philosophies choose something > > "divine" as a starting point for their thought. All people see something > as > > an independent reality, an uncaused reality, which is the cause of all > else. > > For Pythagoras for example, number was divine. For the materialist it is > > matter, for some it is logic, for Priisg it is the aesthetic aspect, or > > quality. > > > > Prisig, like the Greeks, starts with human reason as autonomous, and > > legislative. DW starts with God's revealed truth in the Bible. And > Prisisg, > > like the Greeks, sees no division between Creator and creation, but > deifies > > creation. This is a crucial difference that leads to a crucial difference > in > > their epistemology and metaphysics. For philosophy is ultimately grounded > in > > an understanding of the Divine, in a religious ground motive. DW > identifies > > 4 separate religious ground motives that have been at work in the course > of > > Western civ. > > > > Prisig's starting point, like the Greeks, leads him to conclude that > "all" > > reality is one thing or another. For him "all" reality is quality. For > > Pythagoras, all reality is number, for Thales all reality was water, for > > Heraclitus, all reality was fire, for Anaxamines all reality was apieron, > > for some it was air, for some it was mind, for Parmenides it was Being, > the > > unchanging, for Plato it was the forms. > > > > DW seeing Creator, the Divine, and creation as absolutely distinct, as > the > > Bible presents, does not fall into this trap of seeing reality as "all" > one > > thing, but as seeing all creation as unique. And all interpretation of > > temporal reality as coming from man's supratemporal center, his heart' > > > > That's how I see it now. Maybe you can help explain Prisig's view and his > 4 > > levels. > > > > Thanks, > > Jon > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 3:02 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> Jon, > >> > >> Please offer a few sentences explaining how Dooyeweerd's Theory of > >> Modal Aspects and the MoQ are related? > >> > >> > >> Marsha > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Apr 11, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: > >> > >>> What are the 4 levels. Dooyeweered has 15. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Mary <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Steve, > >>>> > >>>> Yes, Pirsig certainly did say that, but that is not the important > thing > >>>> about the levels. He also says this further along in the same quote. > >>>> [quote] > >>>> In a value-centered Metaphysics of Quality the four sets of static > >> patterns > >>>> are not isolated into separate compartments of mind and matter. > Matter > >> is > >>>> just a name for certain inorganic value patterns. Biological > patterns, > >>>> social patterns, and intellectual patterns are supported by this > pattern > >> of > >>>> matter but are independent of it. They have rules and laws of their > own > >>>> that are not derivable from the rules or laws of substance. This is > not > >>>> the > >>>> customary way of thinking, but, when you stop to think about it you > >> wonder > >>>> how you ever got conned into thinking otherwise. What, after all, is > >> the > >>>> likelihood that an atom possesses within its own structure enough > >>>> information to build the city of New York? > >>>> > >>>> If you are trying to tell me that the 4 Levels are nothing more than > >>>> groupings of similar things, then the power of the MoQ is diluted. > The > >>>> levels start to take on an arbitrariness that defeats the whole > concept > >> of > >>>> Levels. Might as well introduce a taxonomic classification system. > >> They > >>>> are not called "Static Patterns of VALUE" for nothing. What is valued > >> by > >>>> one level is not valued by another, and that is what makes the levels > >>>> differ > >>>> from each other. > >>>> > >>>> Mary > >>>> > >>>> - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:moq_discuss- > >>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steven Peterson > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 7:30 AM > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] A fly in the MOQ ointment > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Mary, > >>>>> > >>>>> You had said: > >>>>>> The thing > >>>>>> that makes the whole construct of the MoQ WORK is the idea that sets > >>>>> of > >>>>>> patterns only achieve the status of a Level when they cease to > >>>>> support the > >>>>>> level they are in and go off to meet ends of their own. Brilliant! > >>>>> > >>>>> Steve: > >>>>> I disagreed, and the quote you provided demonstates that Pirsig calls > >>>>> higher levels "levels" before they go off on purposes of their own. > >>>>> The fact that the fist intellectual patterns offered freedom to > social > >>>>> patterns does not mean that they did not constitute a level in > >>>>> Pirsig's hierarchy of types of patterns of value. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Lila Chapter 12 pg 101 (Electronic) > >>>>>> ... > >>>>>> A primary occupation of every level of evolution seems to be > offering > >>>>> freedom to lower levels of evolution. But as the higher level gets > >>>>> more sophisticated it goes off on purposes of its own. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Best, > >>>>> Steve > >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>> Archives: > >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>> > >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>> Archives: > >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>> > >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>> Archives: > >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >> > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> > >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
