dmb, Krimel, Well I agree with dave completely on this one. Quality = Chaos seems the most ridiculous formulation I can imagine. It is the essence of what I've termed, the Moronist position - the Metaphysics of Randomness makes as little sense to me today as when I first heard it.
Shit happens, indeed. But the fact that it is "shit", is a matter of value. Chaos is a valueless entity. Since you share mine and hunter's fondness for the odd apt scriptural quote, Krimel: Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20 John > dmb says: > > I was trying to be polite, but since you asked twice I'll tell pay it some > attention. > > It seems to me that the whole thing revolves around the notion that > "Quality is Chaos". If that part of your picture is undermined everything > else falls with it, more or less. We all know that shit happens. I'll > certainly go along with you there. But if Quality is not Chaos, and it's > definitely not, then the whole thing folds like a cheap card table, which it > is. > > There are many pieces of evidence to choose from but I like the passages > from the end of his second book, in this case chapter 30: > > "One of Phaedrus' old school texts ..contained a good summary: 'RTA, which > etymologically stands for 'course' originally meant 'cosmic order', the > maintenance of which was the purpose of all the gods; and later it also came > to mean 'right' so that the gods were conceived as preserving the world not > merely from physical disorder but also from moral chaos. The one idea is > implicit in the other; and there is order in the universe because its > control is in righteous hands.'The physical order of the universe is also > the moral order of the universe. Rta is both. This is exactly what the MOQ > was claiming. it was not a new idea. It was the oldest idea known to > man.This identification of RTA and ARETE was enormously valuable, Phaedrus > thought, because it provided a huge historical panorama in which the > fundamental conflict between static and Dynamic Quality had been worked > out." > > "Dharma, like rta, means 'what holds together'. It is the basis of all > order. It equals righteousness. It is the ethical code. It is the stable > condition which gives man perfect satisfaction. Dharma is duty. It is not > external duty which is arbitrarily imposed by others. It is not any > artificial set of conventions which can be repealed by legislation. Neither > is it internal duty which is arbitrarily decided by one's own conscience. > Dharma is beyond all questions of what is internal and what is external. > Dharma is Quality itself, the principle of 'rightness' which gives structure > and purpose to the evolution of all life and to the evolving understanding > of the universe which life created." > > > First of all, this strikes me as a very beautiful and very powerful summary > of the MOQ. But it the point is to refute the notion that "Quality is > Chaos". If it Quality itself is "the basis of all order" and "the principle > of rightness which gives structure and purpose to all life" then Quality is > the exact opposite of chaos. That would mean you were about as wrong as it's > possible to be - and this error is about nothing less than the MOQ's central > term. > > What was that thing you were saying about elephants and gnats? Compared to > the epic nature of this blunder, elephants would look like gnats. Yep, you > practically gotta get in hot air balloon if you want to see the whole thing > at once. It's visible from space. > > > Just kidding. > > But it is pretty bad. > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
