Greetings Platt, Marsha, John and All --
On Sept 23 at 4:08 PM Platt wrote:
SOM axiom: "There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."
MOQ axiom: Everything is good or bad before thinking at all.
We can see what the MOQ is up against -- Pirsig vs. Shakespeare,
a far out idea vs.conventional wisdom.
Do the levels get in the way of Pirsig's Copernican revolution?
Does he cater too much to SOM thinking?
First of all, difference is the nature of existential reality; so there is
no "special difference" that applies to subject-object (SOM) experience. As
for Dynamic Quality being divided into four distinct levels, that is
Pirsig's theory of "causation by preference", and it limits the MoQ to the
evolutionary process of scientific objectivism.
No offense to RMP, but of course I side with Shakespeare on the question of
values. What is "good" or "bad" is man's judgment
(experiencing/thinking/feeling) based on his value orientation. More
recently, astrophysicist John Wheeler noted: "...what we say about the
universe as a whole depends on the means we use to observe it. In the act
of observing we bring into being something of what we see. Laws of physics
relate to man, the observer, more closely than anyone has thought before.
The universe is not 'out there', somewhere, independent of us. Simply put:
without an observer, there are no laws of physics."
I think he understates the case. Not only are there no laws of physics,
there is no physical world without an observer. A few days ago, Marsha
quoted a developer of quantum physics as saying: "Observations not only
_disturb_ what is to be measured, they _produce_ it." If, as Pirsig wrote
[in SODV], "the observation creates the reality," and if the sense of
Quality is primary to objective experience, then two conclusions can be
drawn:
1) An observer (subject) is necessary for objects to exist, and
2) Quality (Value) is the essence of empirical reality.
Yes, Platt, this is "SOM thinking". But we MUST think in SOM terms when
dealing with the differentiated world of objects and events. More
importantly, from a metaphysical standpoint, we need to dispense with
difference when postulating Ultimate Reality. The MoQ tries to straddle
both dimensions, using the same terminology to describe "static" and
"dynamic" phenomena, thus failing to break through finitude to an absolute
source. And therein lies much of the confusion regarding patterns,
subjectivity, and intellect.
The pattern I've noted in recent posts is an attempt to deny both
objectivity and subjectivity and describe the world as if it could be
understood without observation. That's like trying to explain time in a
world where nothing changes. It makes no sense to deny the obvious; this
only complicates the issue and its exposition.
In a different thread, John pointed out another important concept that has
been slighted in the MoQ: Freedom. If goodness is fixed to Quality in the
universe, we have no alternative but to experience goodness. But we
experience the bad along with the good. That's because Quality is only a
relative measure of goodness--which allows for free choice.
[John to Andre on 9/23]:
A response to Quality can be good or bad, right? You can harmonize,
or be out of tune. There is choice.
Good can exist with freedom, because choice is as fundamental as value.
If there is no choice, there is no good.
Indeed, as I have argued previously, it is our CHOICE of value, not the
patterns we construct from it, that is fundamental to human existence.
Essentially speaking,
Ham
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