Mindwalk was actually based on Turning Point not Tao of Physics as I understand it.
Clearly mainstream science is going to brand Capra new-agey, like Pirsig in fact. That's the problem we're talking about, mainstream physics believing anything that doesn't fit their SOMist mould is to be disparaged. It's why I cited Talbot (not Capra) incidentally - Capra does push the boundaries a bit far (even for a MoQist) in his Holographic Universe. Unfortunately Talbot doesn't seem to have the PR agent that Capra has, but his writing is better ... and he's a Brit ;-) Ian On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:11 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Yes, I noted the mention of Capra's book which is also the > basis for the movie MindWalk. And it was disparaged in the book > 'Quantum Enigma' as new-agey. > > Ian, I think the way that I disposed of my bible was a ritual > that uprooted many religious tentacles. Not my heart, but its > connection to religion. > > Enjoyed the discussion. Thank you. > > > Marsha > > > > > On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: > >> She gets very preachy in the last 5 minutes if that TED talk, I'd agree. >> Gobbledygook - yes loads of it, but when you strip it away and look at >> what is agreed, it's very simple - the golden rule / absence of ego. >> (Enforced ? Huh ? where is that come from.) >> >> (You've made it clear your aim is not to progress any debate.) >> >> BTW I checked out the Wallace book. I remember it now - written after >> Capra's "Tao of Physics" and Talbot's "Mysticism and the New Physics". >> The former is quoted by Wallace, the latter is the book that I already >> recorded as having flipped me into checking out Pirsig - the start of >> my journey. >> >> Ian >> >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:39 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>> >>>> And even Baroness Warnock, devout Christian theist and erstwhile >>>> critic of Pirsig - her new book / agenda is precisely about keep >>>> religion out of politics. >>>> >>>> Uncomfortable though it is, it is worth atheists / non-theists >>>> listening carefully to more sophisticated theologians - rather than >>>> talk-radio pundits - in order to progress the debate. >>>> >>>> Currently reading Karen Armstrong. >>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3567 >>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3329 >>>> >>>> Ian >>> >>> >>> I read a bunch of books by Karen Armstong, even her book on >>> Buddhism. I was not impressed, but then I was looking for >>> ?something? that I did not find. I watched her on TED and thought >>> she was too preachy. - The for and against arguments about God >>> just leaves me cold. I just don't get it. Even the concept of 'religion' >>> seems to be entangled in definition that I don't like, and don't think >>> necessary. I listen to John and try to get what he's saying about a >>> shared something-or-other. But what? Decided by whom? Enforced >>> how? Listening to the academics rather then talk-radio pundits >>> seems like slightly better smelling gobbledygook. Very slightly! >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Ian Glendinning >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> Exactly Marsha, me too, >>>>> >>>>> Which is why I noted it as highly significant, that they >>>>> (humanists/atheists and christians/theologians ... even the catholic >>>>> convert) managed to agree that "none of us is right", the most we can >>>>> agree on is some golden rule about our stewardship of the cosmos, or >>>>> some such. >>>>> >>>>> Reality is indeed some middle position. Our stories are all part of >>>>> some larger whole. >>>>> >>>>> Ian >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:30 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Ian, >>>>>> >>>>>> I listened to the BBC discussion. The whole thing made me >>>>>> uncomfortable. Save me from God, religion and Humanism, >>>>>> but more than that save me from the SOM indoctrination. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Marsha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Stanley Hauerwas .... is US top theologian .... hence the irony ? >>>>>>> http://stanleyhauerwas.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Very interesting discussion with him on the BBC on Monday. >>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3582 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:45 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do not know who Stanley Hauerwas is. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Oh I was teasing this morning. Kind of... I have grown to respect >>>>>>>> your position more and more. It is a middle way. Maybe not what I >>>>>>>> always appreciate in the moment; I may snarl, but it is often the best >>>>>>>> choice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't suppose some know how very happy I am to be in this forum. >>>>>>>> I have no where else to go to talk of these matters. I consider myself >>>>>>>> to be extremely fortunate. - Even my snarling skills have improved. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Be well Ian. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That Marsha, is why I often say (sincerely) that I think you do >>>>>>>>> really get it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You (like all of us) often bring an "attitude" to the particular >>>>>>>>> arguments with particular individuals on MD .... which gets you lashed >>>>>>>>> and ridiculed too. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I my case the "attitude" would appear to be "cute" or "smart-ass" or >>>>>>>>> "superior & knowing" ;-) We all have our cross to bear, but in general >>>>>>>>> (with one lone exception) I believe (trust) we are all sincere. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But that's only my opinion. BTW did you see the Stanley Hauerwas joke >>>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>>> "When Bush came to power I concluded he was sincere about his >>>>>>>>> Christian faith. I also concluded it showed how little sincerity had >>>>>>>>> to do with Christianity." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:11 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ian, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I see the hope in the enigma, that science is beyond "making sense." >>>>>>>>>> It might be a time for a paradigm shift in thinking. There's hints >>>>>>>>>> and hope. >>>>>>>>>> I love the quantum micro and macro, though. It's all very exciting >>>>>>>>>> as scientists >>>>>>>>>> become entangled in their own beliefs. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There does seem to be a false dichotomy in the air: objective >>>>>>>>>> science OR >>>>>>>>>> subjective god. That's why I love and respect the MoQ and Buddhism.. >>>>>>>>>> There's a better/middle way. And why I go on about reification/som. >>>>>>>>>> Break >>>>>>>>>> that habit and you have a whole new and improved game to play. But, >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> I've read and know first-hand, it is a hard habit to break. imho. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Marsha, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> DMB has his own agenda (and style of ridicule), in particular in >>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> context defending scientific rationality against anti-intellectual >>>>>>>>>>> attacks >>>>>>>>>>> from the right, and spurious god / religion / theology arguments. >>>>>>>>>>> There are >>>>>>>>>>> millions of people in that debate right now - my lone voice in >>>>>>>>>>> support of >>>>>>>>>>> enlightened rationality will not be missed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm focussed on making science better (in whatever small ways I >>>>>>>>>>> can) ... >>>>>>>>>>> better understand itself and its relation to the mythos ... so that >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> doesn't fall into the idolatrous trap of absolute intellectual >>>>>>>>>>> superiority >>>>>>>>>>> like any two-bit religion. (In doing so, I do risk appearing not to >>>>>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>> the first argument .... but nothing could be further from the >>>>>>>>>>> truth.) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If I wrote so dmb could understand me, I think our differences >>>>>>>>>>> would be >>>>>>>>>>> purely tactical - choosing our battlegrounds. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Standing by for DMB's ridicule. >>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:35 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Geez, someone criticized Hawking in this forum and was soundly >>>>>>>>>>>> ridiculed >>>>>>>>>>>> by dmb? I have watched all the Hawking dvd programs available; >>>>>>>>>>>> one more >>>>>>>>>>>> to go. Find it important to know where I am pointing my >>>>>>>>>>>> skepticism. - >>>>>>>>>>>> It's >>>>>>>>>>>> interesting story-telling. Once upon a time there was >>>>>>>>>>>> singularity... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Wallace's book was great! - I can only change myself, which >>>>>>>>>>>> may be the >>>>>>>>>>>> best way to assist social change. When in public I _try_ to >>>>>>>>>>>> spread good >>>>>>>>>>>> cheer. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:21 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Hawking (media superstar) is part of the problem of >>>>>>>>>>>>> current day >>>>>>>>>>>>> science, all he can do is deepen the hole it's in. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Science will rise to its true position if it winds back 80 years >>>>>>>>>>>>> or so. >>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with science now is that it is (in its own mind and in >>>>>>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness and media generally) too exalted. Unfortunately, to >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> called >>>>>>>>>>>>> scientific is to be praised - hallelujah. Idolatry in action. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> But - let's try and do something about it - do as we would be >>>>>>>>>>>>> done by. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Look at the specific scientific error in the big bang stuff (I >>>>>>>>>>>>> provided >>>>>>>>>>>> 10 >>>>>>>>>>>>> or more links) ... and use it as an example to spread awareness >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:05 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry. I meant science. It will take much more than >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hawking hawking its theories to resurrect science to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an exalted position. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Marsha, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book, I've heard of, but ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Resurrect "it" - what's "it" ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whose comments on what programme ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:37 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book 'Choosing Reality' was enlightening. It will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much more than a Hawking to resurrect it. It's hard to keep >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laughing at his program comments. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:33 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If science is right it appears Copernicus was right all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> along, and >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really is the centre of the universe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3589 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Clue - science is wrong - shock, horror ;-o ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html 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