On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: > And even Baroness Warnock, devout Christian theist and erstwhile > critic of Pirsig - her new book / agenda is precisely about keep > religion out of politics. > > Uncomfortable though it is, it is worth atheists / non-theists > listening carefully to more sophisticated theologians - rather than > talk-radio pundits - in order to progress the debate. > > Currently reading Karen Armstrong. > http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3567 > http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3329 > > Ian
I read a bunch of books by Karen Armstong, even her book on Buddhism. I was not impressed, but then I was looking for ?something? that I did not find. I watched her on TED and thought she was too preachy. - The for and against arguments about God just leaves me cold. I just don't get it. Even the concept of 'religion' seems to be entangled in definition that I don't like, and don't think necessary. I listen to John and try to get what he's saying about a shared something-or-other. But what? Decided by whom? Enforced how? Listening to the academics rather then talk-radio pundits seems like slightly better smelling gobbledygook. Very slightly! Marsha > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Ian Glendinning > <[email protected]> wrote: >> Exactly Marsha, me too, >> >> Which is why I noted it as highly significant, that they >> (humanists/atheists and christians/theologians ... even the catholic >> convert) managed to agree that "none of us is right", the most we can >> agree on is some golden rule about our stewardship of the cosmos, or >> some such. >> >> Reality is indeed some middle position. Our stories are all part of >> some larger whole. >> >> Ian >> >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:30 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Ian, >>> >>> I listened to the BBC discussion. The whole thing made me >>> uncomfortable. Save me from God, religion and Humanism, >>> but more than that save me from the SOM indoctrination. >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>> >>>> Stanley Hauerwas .... is US top theologian .... hence the irony ? >>>> http://stanleyhauerwas.blogspot.com/ >>>> >>>> Very interesting discussion with him on the BBC on Monday. >>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3582 >>>> >>>> Ian >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:45 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I do not know who Stanley Hauerwas is. >>>>> >>>>> Oh I was teasing this morning. Kind of... I have grown to respect >>>>> your position more and more. It is a middle way. Maybe not what I >>>>> always appreciate in the moment; I may snarl, but it is often the best >>>>> choice. >>>>> >>>>> I don't suppose some know how very happy I am to be in this forum. >>>>> I have no where else to go to talk of these matters. I consider myself >>>>> to be extremely fortunate. - Even my snarling skills have improved. >>>>> >>>>> Be well Ian. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marsha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That Marsha, is why I often say (sincerely) that I think you do really >>>>>> get it. >>>>>> >>>>>> You (like all of us) often bring an "attitude" to the particular >>>>>> arguments with particular individuals on MD .... which gets you lashed >>>>>> and ridiculed too. >>>>>> >>>>>> I my case the "attitude" would appear to be "cute" or "smart-ass" or >>>>>> "superior & knowing" ;-) We all have our cross to bear, but in general >>>>>> (with one lone exception) I believe (trust) we are all sincere. >>>>>> >>>>>> But that's only my opinion. BTW did you see the Stanley Hauerwas joke ? >>>>>> "When Bush came to power I concluded he was sincere about his >>>>>> Christian faith. I also concluded it showed how little sincerity had >>>>>> to do with Christianity." >>>>>> >>>>>> Ian >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:11 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ian, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I see the hope in the enigma, that science is beyond "making sense." >>>>>>> It might be a time for a paradigm shift in thinking. There's hints and >>>>>>> hope. >>>>>>> I love the quantum micro and macro, though. It's all very exciting as >>>>>>> scientists >>>>>>> become entangled in their own beliefs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There does seem to be a false dichotomy in the air: objective science >>>>>>> OR >>>>>>> subjective god. That's why I love and respect the MoQ and Buddhism.. >>>>>>> There's a better/middle way. And why I go on about reification/som. >>>>>>> Break >>>>>>> that habit and you have a whole new and improved game to play. But, as >>>>>>> I've read and know first-hand, it is a hard habit to break. imho. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marsha, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> DMB has his own agenda (and style of ridicule), in particular in this >>>>>>>> context defending scientific rationality against anti-intellectual >>>>>>>> attacks >>>>>>>> from the right, and spurious god / religion / theology arguments. >>>>>>>> There are >>>>>>>> millions of people in that debate right now - my lone voice in support >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> enlightened rationality will not be missed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm focussed on making science better (in whatever small ways I can) >>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>> better understand itself and its relation to the mythos ... so that it >>>>>>>> doesn't fall into the idolatrous trap of absolute intellectual >>>>>>>> superiority >>>>>>>> like any two-bit religion. (In doing so, I do risk appearing not to >>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>> the first argument .... but nothing could be further from the truth.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If I wrote so dmb could understand me, I think our differences would be >>>>>>>> purely tactical - choosing our battlegrounds. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Standing by for DMB's ridicule. >>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:35 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Geez, someone criticized Hawking in this forum and was soundly >>>>>>>>> ridiculed >>>>>>>>> by dmb? I have watched all the Hawking dvd programs available; one >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> to go. Find it important to know where I am pointing my skepticism. >>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>> It's >>>>>>>>> interesting story-telling. Once upon a time there was singularity... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Wallace's book was great! - I can only change myself, which may >>>>>>>>> be the >>>>>>>>> best way to assist social change. When in public I _try_ to spread >>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>> cheer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:21 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Hawking (media superstar) is part of the problem of current >>>>>>>>>> day >>>>>>>>>> science, all he can do is deepen the hole it's in. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Science will rise to its true position if it winds back 80 years or >>>>>>>>>> so. >>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> problem with science now is that it is (in its own mind and in public >>>>>>>>>> consciousness and media generally) too exalted. Unfortunately, to be >>>>>>>>> called >>>>>>>>>> scientific is to be praised - hallelujah. Idolatry in action. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But - let's try and do something about it - do as we would be done >>>>>>>>>> by. >>>>>>>>>> Look at the specific scientific error in the big bang stuff (I >>>>>>>>>> provided >>>>>>>>> 10 >>>>>>>>>> or more links) ... and use it as an example to spread awareness of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:05 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry. I meant science. It will take much more than >>>>>>>>>>> Hawking hawking its theories to resurrect science to >>>>>>>>>>> an exalted position. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Marsha, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book, I've heard of, but ... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Resurrect "it" - what's "it" ? >>>>>>>>>>>> Whose comments on what programme ? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:37 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book 'Choosing Reality' was enlightening. It will >>>>>>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>>>>>> much more than a Hawking to resurrect it. It's hard to keep from >>>>>>>>>>>>> laughing at his program comments. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:33 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If science is right it appears Copernicus was right all along, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth >>>>>>>>>>>>>> really is the centre of the universe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3589 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Clue - science is wrong - shock, horror ;-o ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ___ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
