And even Baroness Warnock, devout Christian theist and erstwhile critic of Pirsig - her new book / agenda is precisely about keep religion out of politics.
Uncomfortable though it is, it is worth atheists / non-theists listening carefully to more sophisticated theologians - rather than talk-radio pundits - in order to progress the debate. Currently reading Karen Armstrong. http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3567 http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3329 Ian On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Ian Glendinning <[email protected]> wrote: > Exactly Marsha, me too, > > Which is why I noted it as highly significant, that they > (humanists/atheists and christians/theologians ... even the catholic > convert) managed to agree that "none of us is right", the most we can > agree on is some golden rule about our stewardship of the cosmos, or > some such. > > Reality is indeed some middle position. Our stories are all part of > some larger whole. > > Ian > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:30 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Ian, >> >> I listened to the BBC discussion. The whole thing made me >> uncomfortable. Save me from God, religion and Humanism, >> but more than that save me from the SOM indoctrination. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >> >>> Stanley Hauerwas .... is US top theologian .... hence the irony ? >>> http://stanleyhauerwas.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> Very interesting discussion with him on the BBC on Monday. >>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3582 >>> >>> Ian >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:45 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I do not know who Stanley Hauerwas is. >>>> >>>> Oh I was teasing this morning. Kind of... I have grown to respect >>>> your position more and more. It is a middle way. Maybe not what I >>>> always appreciate in the moment; I may snarl, but it is often the best >>>> choice. >>>> >>>> I don't suppose some know how very happy I am to be in this forum. >>>> I have no where else to go to talk of these matters. I consider myself >>>> to be extremely fortunate. - Even my snarling skills have improved. >>>> >>>> Be well Ian. >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>> >>>>> That Marsha, is why I often say (sincerely) that I think you do really >>>>> get it. >>>>> >>>>> You (like all of us) often bring an "attitude" to the particular >>>>> arguments with particular individuals on MD .... which gets you lashed >>>>> and ridiculed too. >>>>> >>>>> I my case the "attitude" would appear to be "cute" or "smart-ass" or >>>>> "superior & knowing" ;-) We all have our cross to bear, but in general >>>>> (with one lone exception) I believe (trust) we are all sincere. >>>>> >>>>> But that's only my opinion. BTW did you see the Stanley Hauerwas joke ? >>>>> "When Bush came to power I concluded he was sincere about his >>>>> Christian faith. I also concluded it showed how little sincerity had >>>>> to do with Christianity." >>>>> >>>>> Ian >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:11 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Ian, >>>>>> >>>>>> I see the hope in the enigma, that science is beyond "making sense." >>>>>> It might be a time for a paradigm shift in thinking. There's hints and >>>>>> hope. >>>>>> I love the quantum micro and macro, though. It's all very exciting as >>>>>> scientists >>>>>> become entangled in their own beliefs. >>>>>> >>>>>> There does seem to be a false dichotomy in the air: objective science OR >>>>>> subjective god. That's why I love and respect the MoQ and Buddhism.. >>>>>> There's a better/middle way. And why I go on about reification/som. >>>>>> Break >>>>>> that habit and you have a whole new and improved game to play. But, as >>>>>> I've read and know first-hand, it is a hard habit to break. imho. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Marsha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Marsha, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> DMB has his own agenda (and style of ridicule), in particular in this >>>>>>> context defending scientific rationality against anti-intellectual >>>>>>> attacks >>>>>>> from the right, and spurious god / religion / theology arguments. There >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> millions of people in that debate right now - my lone voice in support >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> enlightened rationality will not be missed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm focussed on making science better (in whatever small ways I can) ... >>>>>>> better understand itself and its relation to the mythos ... so that it >>>>>>> doesn't fall into the idolatrous trap of absolute intellectual >>>>>>> superiority >>>>>>> like any two-bit religion. (In doing so, I do risk appearing not to >>>>>>> support >>>>>>> the first argument .... but nothing could be further from the truth.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I wrote so dmb could understand me, I think our differences would be >>>>>>> purely tactical - choosing our battlegrounds. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Standing by for DMB's ridicule. >>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:35 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Geez, someone criticized Hawking in this forum and was soundly >>>>>>>> ridiculed >>>>>>>> by dmb? I have watched all the Hawking dvd programs available; one >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> to go. Find it important to know where I am pointing my skepticism. - >>>>>>>> It's >>>>>>>> interesting story-telling. Once upon a time there was singularity... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wallace's book was great! - I can only change myself, which may be >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> best way to assist social change. When in public I _try_ to spread >>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>> cheer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:21 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Agreed. Hawking (media superstar) is part of the problem of current >>>>>>>>> day >>>>>>>>> science, all he can do is deepen the hole it's in. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Science will rise to its true position if it winds back 80 years or >>>>>>>>> so. >>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>> problem with science now is that it is (in its own mind and in public >>>>>>>>> consciousness and media generally) too exalted. Unfortunately, to be >>>>>>>> called >>>>>>>>> scientific is to be praised - hallelujah. Idolatry in action. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But - let's try and do something about it - do as we would be done by. >>>>>>>>> Look at the specific scientific error in the big bang stuff (I >>>>>>>>> provided >>>>>>>> 10 >>>>>>>>> or more links) ... and use it as an example to spread awareness of the >>>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:05 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sorry. I meant science. It will take much more than >>>>>>>>>> Hawking hawking its theories to resurrect science to >>>>>>>>>> an exalted position. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Marsha, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book, I've heard of, but ... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Resurrect "it" - what's "it" ? >>>>>>>>>>> Whose comments on what programme ? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:37 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ian, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book 'Choosing Reality' was enlightening. It will take >>>>>>>>>>>> much more than a Hawking to resurrect it. It's hard to keep from >>>>>>>>>>>> laughing at his program comments. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:33 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If science is right it appears Copernicus was right all along, and >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> Earth >>>>>>>>>>>>> really is the centre of the universe. >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3589 >>>>>>>>>>>>> (Clue - science is wrong - shock, horror ;-o ) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ___ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
