She gets very preachy in the last 5 minutes if that TED talk, I'd agree. Gobbledygook - yes loads of it, but when you strip it away and look at what is agreed, it's very simple - the golden rule / absence of ego. (Enforced ? Huh ? where is that come from.)
(You've made it clear your aim is not to progress any debate.) BTW I checked out the Wallace book. I remember it now - written after Capra's "Tao of Physics" and Talbot's "Mysticism and the New Physics". The former is quoted by Wallace, the latter is the book that I already recorded as having flipped me into checking out Pirsig - the start of my journey. Ian On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:39 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: > >> And even Baroness Warnock, devout Christian theist and erstwhile >> critic of Pirsig - her new book / agenda is precisely about keep >> religion out of politics. >> >> Uncomfortable though it is, it is worth atheists / non-theists >> listening carefully to more sophisticated theologians - rather than >> talk-radio pundits - in order to progress the debate. >> >> Currently reading Karen Armstrong. >> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3567 >> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3329 >> >> Ian > > > I read a bunch of books by Karen Armstong, even her book on > Buddhism. I was not impressed, but then I was looking for > ?something? that I did not find. I watched her on TED and thought > she was too preachy. - The for and against arguments about God > just leaves me cold. I just don't get it. Even the concept of 'religion' > seems to be entangled in definition that I don't like, and don't think > necessary. I listen to John and try to get what he's saying about a > shared something-or-other. But what? Decided by whom? Enforced > how? Listening to the academics rather then talk-radio pundits > seems like slightly better smelling gobbledygook. Very slightly! > > Marsha > > > > > > >> >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Ian Glendinning >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Exactly Marsha, me too, >>> >>> Which is why I noted it as highly significant, that they >>> (humanists/atheists and christians/theologians ... even the catholic >>> convert) managed to agree that "none of us is right", the most we can >>> agree on is some golden rule about our stewardship of the cosmos, or >>> some such. >>> >>> Reality is indeed some middle position. Our stories are all part of >>> some larger whole. >>> >>> Ian >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:30 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Ian, >>>> >>>> I listened to the BBC discussion. The whole thing made me >>>> uncomfortable. Save me from God, religion and Humanism, >>>> but more than that save me from the SOM indoctrination. >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>> >>>>> Stanley Hauerwas .... is US top theologian .... hence the irony ? >>>>> http://stanleyhauerwas.blogspot.com/ >>>>> >>>>> Very interesting discussion with him on the BBC on Monday. >>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3582 >>>>> >>>>> Ian >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:45 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not know who Stanley Hauerwas is. >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh I was teasing this morning. Kind of... I have grown to respect >>>>>> your position more and more. It is a middle way. Maybe not what I >>>>>> always appreciate in the moment; I may snarl, but it is often the best >>>>>> choice. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't suppose some know how very happy I am to be in this forum. >>>>>> I have no where else to go to talk of these matters. I consider myself >>>>>> to be extremely fortunate. - Even my snarling skills have improved. >>>>>> >>>>>> Be well Ian. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Marsha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> That Marsha, is why I often say (sincerely) that I think you do really >>>>>>> get it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You (like all of us) often bring an "attitude" to the particular >>>>>>> arguments with particular individuals on MD .... which gets you lashed >>>>>>> and ridiculed too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I my case the "attitude" would appear to be "cute" or "smart-ass" or >>>>>>> "superior & knowing" ;-) We all have our cross to bear, but in general >>>>>>> (with one lone exception) I believe (trust) we are all sincere. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But that's only my opinion. BTW did you see the Stanley Hauerwas joke ? >>>>>>> "When Bush came to power I concluded he was sincere about his >>>>>>> Christian faith. I also concluded it showed how little sincerity had >>>>>>> to do with Christianity." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:11 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ian, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I see the hope in the enigma, that science is beyond "making sense." >>>>>>>> It might be a time for a paradigm shift in thinking. There's hints >>>>>>>> and hope. >>>>>>>> I love the quantum micro and macro, though. It's all very exciting as >>>>>>>> scientists >>>>>>>> become entangled in their own beliefs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There does seem to be a false dichotomy in the air: objective science >>>>>>>> OR >>>>>>>> subjective god. That's why I love and respect the MoQ and Buddhism.. >>>>>>>> There's a better/middle way. And why I go on about reification/som. >>>>>>>> Break >>>>>>>> that habit and you have a whole new and improved game to play. But, as >>>>>>>> I've read and know first-hand, it is a hard habit to break. imho. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marsha, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> DMB has his own agenda (and style of ridicule), in particular in this >>>>>>>>> context defending scientific rationality against anti-intellectual >>>>>>>>> attacks >>>>>>>>> from the right, and spurious god / religion / theology arguments. >>>>>>>>> There are >>>>>>>>> millions of people in that debate right now - my lone voice in >>>>>>>>> support of >>>>>>>>> enlightened rationality will not be missed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm focussed on making science better (in whatever small ways I can) >>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>> better understand itself and its relation to the mythos ... so that it >>>>>>>>> doesn't fall into the idolatrous trap of absolute intellectual >>>>>>>>> superiority >>>>>>>>> like any two-bit religion. (In doing so, I do risk appearing not to >>>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>>> the first argument .... but nothing could be further from the truth.) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If I wrote so dmb could understand me, I think our differences would >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> purely tactical - choosing our battlegrounds. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Standing by for DMB's ridicule. >>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:35 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Geez, someone criticized Hawking in this forum and was soundly >>>>>>>>>> ridiculed >>>>>>>>>> by dmb? I have watched all the Hawking dvd programs available; one >>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> to go. Find it important to know where I am pointing my skepticism. >>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>> It's >>>>>>>>>> interesting story-telling. Once upon a time there was singularity... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Wallace's book was great! - I can only change myself, which may >>>>>>>>>> be the >>>>>>>>>> best way to assist social change. When in public I _try_ to spread >>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>> cheer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:21 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Hawking (media superstar) is part of the problem of current >>>>>>>>>>> day >>>>>>>>>>> science, all he can do is deepen the hole it's in. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Science will rise to its true position if it winds back 80 years or >>>>>>>>>>> so. >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>> problem with science now is that it is (in its own mind and in >>>>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>>> consciousness and media generally) too exalted. Unfortunately, to be >>>>>>>>>> called >>>>>>>>>>> scientific is to be praised - hallelujah. Idolatry in action. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But - let's try and do something about it - do as we would be done >>>>>>>>>>> by. >>>>>>>>>>> Look at the specific scientific error in the big bang stuff (I >>>>>>>>>>> provided >>>>>>>>>> 10 >>>>>>>>>>> or more links) ... and use it as an example to spread awareness of >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:05 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry. I meant science. It will take much more than >>>>>>>>>>>> Hawking hawking its theories to resurrect science to >>>>>>>>>>>> an exalted position. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Marsha, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book, I've heard of, but ... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Resurrect "it" - what's "it" ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Whose comments on what programme ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:37 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book 'Choosing Reality' was enlightening. It will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>>>>>>> much more than a Hawking to resurrect it. It's hard to keep from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> laughing at his program comments. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:33 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If science is right it appears Copernicus was right all along, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really is the centre of the universe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3589 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Clue - science is wrong - shock, horror ;-o ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 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