Yes, I noted the mention of Capra's book which is also the basis for the movie MindWalk. And it was disparaged in the book 'Quantum Enigma' as new-agey.
Ian, I think the way that I disposed of my bible was a ritual that uprooted many religious tentacles. Not my heart, but its connection to religion. Enjoyed the discussion. Thank you. Marsha On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: > She gets very preachy in the last 5 minutes if that TED talk, I'd agree. > Gobbledygook - yes loads of it, but when you strip it away and look at > what is agreed, it's very simple - the golden rule / absence of ego. > (Enforced ? Huh ? where is that come from.) > > (You've made it clear your aim is not to progress any debate.) > > BTW I checked out the Wallace book. I remember it now - written after > Capra's "Tao of Physics" and Talbot's "Mysticism and the New Physics". > The former is quoted by Wallace, the latter is the book that I already > recorded as having flipped me into checking out Pirsig - the start of > my journey. > > Ian > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:39 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >> >>> And even Baroness Warnock, devout Christian theist and erstwhile >>> critic of Pirsig - her new book / agenda is precisely about keep >>> religion out of politics. >>> >>> Uncomfortable though it is, it is worth atheists / non-theists >>> listening carefully to more sophisticated theologians - rather than >>> talk-radio pundits - in order to progress the debate. >>> >>> Currently reading Karen Armstrong. >>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3567 >>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3329 >>> >>> Ian >> >> >> I read a bunch of books by Karen Armstong, even her book on >> Buddhism. I was not impressed, but then I was looking for >> ?something? that I did not find. I watched her on TED and thought >> she was too preachy. - The for and against arguments about God >> just leaves me cold. I just don't get it. Even the concept of 'religion' >> seems to be entangled in definition that I don't like, and don't think >> necessary. I listen to John and try to get what he's saying about a >> shared something-or-other. But what? Decided by whom? Enforced >> how? Listening to the academics rather then talk-radio pundits >> seems like slightly better smelling gobbledygook. Very slightly! >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Ian Glendinning >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Exactly Marsha, me too, >>>> >>>> Which is why I noted it as highly significant, that they >>>> (humanists/atheists and christians/theologians ... even the catholic >>>> convert) managed to agree that "none of us is right", the most we can >>>> agree on is some golden rule about our stewardship of the cosmos, or >>>> some such. >>>> >>>> Reality is indeed some middle position. Our stories are all part of >>>> some larger whole. >>>> >>>> Ian >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:30 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ian, >>>>> >>>>> I listened to the BBC discussion. The whole thing made me >>>>> uncomfortable. Save me from God, religion and Humanism, >>>>> but more than that save me from the SOM indoctrination. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marsha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Stanley Hauerwas .... is US top theologian .... hence the irony ? >>>>>> http://stanleyhauerwas.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Very interesting discussion with him on the BBC on Monday. >>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3582 >>>>>> >>>>>> Ian >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:45 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not know who Stanley Hauerwas is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh I was teasing this morning. Kind of... I have grown to respect >>>>>>> your position more and more. It is a middle way. Maybe not what I >>>>>>> always appreciate in the moment; I may snarl, but it is often the best >>>>>>> choice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't suppose some know how very happy I am to be in this forum. >>>>>>> I have no where else to go to talk of these matters. I consider myself >>>>>>> to be extremely fortunate. - Even my snarling skills have improved. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Be well Ian. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That Marsha, is why I often say (sincerely) that I think you do really >>>>>>>> get it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You (like all of us) often bring an "attitude" to the particular >>>>>>>> arguments with particular individuals on MD .... which gets you lashed >>>>>>>> and ridiculed too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I my case the "attitude" would appear to be "cute" or "smart-ass" or >>>>>>>> "superior & knowing" ;-) We all have our cross to bear, but in general >>>>>>>> (with one lone exception) I believe (trust) we are all sincere. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But that's only my opinion. BTW did you see the Stanley Hauerwas joke ? >>>>>>>> "When Bush came to power I concluded he was sincere about his >>>>>>>> Christian faith. I also concluded it showed how little sincerity had >>>>>>>> to do with Christianity." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:11 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ian, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I see the hope in the enigma, that science is beyond "making sense." >>>>>>>>> It might be a time for a paradigm shift in thinking. There's hints >>>>>>>>> and hope. >>>>>>>>> I love the quantum micro and macro, though. It's all very exciting >>>>>>>>> as scientists >>>>>>>>> become entangled in their own beliefs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There does seem to be a false dichotomy in the air: objective >>>>>>>>> science OR >>>>>>>>> subjective god. That's why I love and respect the MoQ and Buddhism.. >>>>>>>>> There's a better/middle way. And why I go on about reification/som. >>>>>>>>> Break >>>>>>>>> that habit and you have a whole new and improved game to play. But, >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> I've read and know first-hand, it is a hard habit to break. imho. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Marsha, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> DMB has his own agenda (and style of ridicule), in particular in this >>>>>>>>>> context defending scientific rationality against anti-intellectual >>>>>>>>>> attacks >>>>>>>>>> from the right, and spurious god / religion / theology arguments. >>>>>>>>>> There are >>>>>>>>>> millions of people in that debate right now - my lone voice in >>>>>>>>>> support of >>>>>>>>>> enlightened rationality will not be missed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm focussed on making science better (in whatever small ways I can) >>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>> better understand itself and its relation to the mythos ... so that >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> doesn't fall into the idolatrous trap of absolute intellectual >>>>>>>>>> superiority >>>>>>>>>> like any two-bit religion. (In doing so, I do risk appearing not to >>>>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>>>> the first argument .... but nothing could be further from the truth.) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If I wrote so dmb could understand me, I think our differences would >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> purely tactical - choosing our battlegrounds. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Standing by for DMB's ridicule. >>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:35 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Geez, someone criticized Hawking in this forum and was soundly >>>>>>>>>>> ridiculed >>>>>>>>>>> by dmb? I have watched all the Hawking dvd programs available; one >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>> to go. Find it important to know where I am pointing my >>>>>>>>>>> skepticism. - >>>>>>>>>>> It's >>>>>>>>>>> interesting story-telling. Once upon a time there was >>>>>>>>>>> singularity... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Wallace's book was great! - I can only change myself, which may >>>>>>>>>>> be the >>>>>>>>>>> best way to assist social change. When in public I _try_ to spread >>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>> cheer. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:21 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Hawking (media superstar) is part of the problem of >>>>>>>>>>>> current day >>>>>>>>>>>> science, all he can do is deepen the hole it's in. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Science will rise to its true position if it winds back 80 years >>>>>>>>>>>> or so. >>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>> problem with science now is that it is (in its own mind and in >>>>>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness and media generally) too exalted. Unfortunately, to >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> called >>>>>>>>>>>> scientific is to be praised - hallelujah. Idolatry in action. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But - let's try and do something about it - do as we would be done >>>>>>>>>>>> by. >>>>>>>>>>>> Look at the specific scientific error in the big bang stuff (I >>>>>>>>>>>> provided >>>>>>>>>>> 10 >>>>>>>>>>>> or more links) ... and use it as an example to spread awareness of >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:05 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry. I meant science. It will take much more than >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hawking hawking its theories to resurrect science to >>>>>>>>>>>>> an exalted position. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Marsha, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book, I've heard of, but ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Resurrect "it" - what's "it" ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whose comments on what programme ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:37 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book 'Choosing Reality' was enlightening. It will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much more than a Hawking to resurrect it. It's hard to keep >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laughing at his program comments. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:33 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If science is right it appears Copernicus was right all along, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really is the centre of the universe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3589 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Clue - science is wrong - shock, horror ;-o ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 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