Hello everyone On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:02 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Oct 20, 2010, at 10:30 AM, Dan Glover wrote: > >> Hello everyone >> >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:21 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 4:55 PM, Dan Glover wrote: >>> >>>> Hello everyone >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:30 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 12:48 PM, 118 wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 7:29 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Dan Glover wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello everyone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 4:26 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Oct 18, 2010, at 11:39 PM, Dan Glover wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dan: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The intellectual level is just thinking, plain and simple. You know >>>>>>> that, John. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marsha: >>>>>>>>> Aren't all patterns conceptually constructed? Wouldn't that make all >>>>>>> levels "just thinking?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Marsha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would say that within the framework of the MOQ, inorganic and >>>>>>>> biological patterns are physical. We can touch them, examine them. >>>>>>>> Social and intellectual patterns are mental... like the President of >>>>>>>> the United States. There is no way to physically tell the President >>>>>>>> apart from any other human being by examination. So to answer your >>>>>>>> question, no, not all levels are "just thinking." In addition, there >>>>>>>> seem to social patterns of value that are not intellectual, like >>>>>>>> saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes. Those types of patterns are >>>>>>>> ingrained in us to the extent that we really don't think about it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dan, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I think "Should I say "Bless you." to this guy." does that make it an >>>>>>> intellectual static pattern of value or a social static pattern of >>>>>>> value? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark: >>>>>> Yes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marsha: >>>>> And the notion that the Intellectual Level represent theology, science, >>>>> philosophy >>>>> and mathematics has collapsed into thinking about whether to say "Bless >>>>> you.", >>>>> or not? No, I don't buy that. >>>> >>>> Hi Marsha >>>> >>>> Sometimes in order to make the complicated a bit simpler, we start >>>> small. I mean, there are only four levels and they contain everything >>>> (except Dynamic Quality), so obviously we are using analogy here to >>>> order our understanding of reality. Theology, science, philosophy and >>>> mathematics are made up of both social and intellectual pattens. They >>>> are often cultural-specific, as Robert Pirsig points out. >>>> >>>> I hope that helps. >>>> >>>> Dan >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Dan, >>> >>> Marsha: >>> In Anthony's PhD it states that science theology, mathematics and >>> philosophy are >>> intellectual quality patterns. So here's my understanding of the >>> Intellectual Level: >>> >>> The Intellectual Level, the fourth level, is comprised of static patterns >>> of value such >>> as science theology, mathematics and philosophy. The way that these patterns >>> function is as reified concepts and the rules for their rational analysis >>> and manipulation. >>> Reification decontextualizes. Intellectual patterns process from a >>> subject/object >>> conceptual framework creating false boundaries that give the illusion of >>> independence >>> as a “thing” or an “object of analysis.” The fourth level is a formalized >>> subject/object >>> level (SOM), where the paramount demand is for rational, objective >>> knowledge, which >>> is free from the taint of any subjectivity like emotions, inclinations, >>> fears and compulsions >>> in order to pursue study and research in an unbiased and rational manner. >> >> Hi Marsha >> >> You almost had me. I actually thought you might be getting it. But >> then you have to throw a monkey wrench into the works and foul it all >> up. Where in Anthony's work does it say the intellectual level is a >> formalized SOM? Anywhere? Or are you like Bo, just picking and >> choosing what you agree with? Maybe you and John and get together and >> relive the old times. > > > Hi Dan, > > My statement was: "In Anthony's PhD it states that science, theology, > mathematics: > and philosophy are intellectual quality patterns." (period) Next came "So > here's > my understanding of the Intellectual Level:", which clearly labels the > sentence as > mine. Sorry, but I don't want you, and I never stated Anthony's work > suggested > anything other than the the Intellectual Level being "science, theology, > mathematics > and philosophy". You, on the other hand, tried to pass the Intellectual > Level off > as "just thinking." Ant's thesis did not state that the Intellectual Level > is "just thinking."
Dan: But Robert Pirsig does! And yes, I know you don't allow much value to the LILA'S CHILD annotations but it is there for all to see. Plain and simple. > > I have a great deal of respect for Bo, and think he is correct about the > Intellectual > Level being SOM. And not much for those who harassed him using ad hominem > attacks. My rationale is different than his, but we are in agreement with > the main > point. There are many truths, and the one that I present is better than > yours. :-) Dan: Good for you, Marsha. Dan > > > Marsha > > > > > > >> >> Why do I bother? >> >> Dan >> >>> >>> All patterns are interdependent so naturally there would be a relationship >>> with social >>> level patterns. >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
