Hi Arlo, On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 5:24 PM, ARLO J BENSINGER JR <[email protected]> wrote:
> [John] > I did read it that way and I think you've got your cart and horse > backwards. I > think greater complexity is driven by "the agenic side" rather than agency > being a function of additions to complexity. > > [Arlo] > You're saying amoebas "choose" (via free will) to become "more complex" and > turn into mice? Is that correct? Did they have a "mouse plan" in mind? Or > was > that something that just happened? > John: Well the way you say it, it almost sounds silly, but basically, yeah. That's the way I think of it. Only the "mouse plan" was writ large in the design and construction of the whole universe, which in some unknown way, needed mouseness and thus brought it about through what is called in human terms, a "cause and effect process". It is the whole which calls forth and defines the particulars, in my worldview. Construing this cosmic agency as some form of divinity is quite natural, and a path followed by humans for millinia, but transcending the particular cultural beliefs and taking Nature as a whole as the definer of Good then allows a conceptualization of this whole being a creative power which pulls particulars into shape. Never do particulars just magically combine by themselves into more complex patterns. There is entropy to explain one direction, nothing explains the other except "DQ" and various religious conceptualizations. Randomness explains nothing. This mechanistic view of the lower evolving into the higher does not explain the jumps in the levels - the radical shifts ARE what create the complexity. They don't merely arise from it. Arlo: > > I am saying that "structure" and "agency" are NOT a horse and a cart, and > neither is first, that's the key. Agency does not "make" structure, and > structure does not "make" agency, the two mutually evolve, back and forth > and > back and forth (if you will). Evolution in one increases the odds for > evolution > in the other, and the wheel keeps turning. > > John: I see what you're saying, and hey, being a big fan of co-dependent arising as a realization for almost everything, I can't quite buy it here. I'm sure you can't have structure without some aspect of agency - structure is a term for organization recognizable to a mind - but mind - agency, is harder to pin down. Sometimes it seems most moving when it's the least structured! So I think there is a horse, there is a cart, and it makes a difference in which is in front. Agency makes structure. > [John] > Nuthin' like a nice equivocation to settle an argument. Nice. > > [Arlo] > Okay, buy me a beer then? > Anytime, Arlo. Maybe I'll be in town one day, if the North Dakota gig doesn't work out, I'll get to drive across the country. [John] > Cosmic choice. The universe choose my existence... > > [Arlo] > When? > > John: 1959 to present. > [Arlo] > Structure does not "trap" agency, it enables it (and vice versa). > John: To really dissect this, I think it's helpful to keep the levels discrete. That is, recognize from which level-perspective the structure in question resides. ANd to look first at the intellectual level, since it holds all the others by implication and is on the plane of words in which we dwell. So, intellectual structure is what? Thought expressed in word. The word, especially in this sense, would be the structure, right? And the thoughts would be the agency. Trying to put thought into word, trying to fit the inspiration into the structure of thoughts (already defined by one's culture) composed of words. At this level alone, I believe this demonstrates your error. Structure does trap agency. Sometime it enables. It varies. It depends, upon whether it is good structure, or not good structure. That's where we get hung up because you seem to disagree about the actual existence of good and bad. > [John] > Choosing choice, as always. > > [Arlo] > Choosing The Catherine Wheel tonight (Fripp, at the moment)... been a long > friggin' week. > > Yup. Seven days, to be pedantically exact. John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
