Hi dmb,
> Pirsig's response: > "Traditionally, this is the meaning of free will. But the MOQ can argue that > free will exists at all levels with increasing freedom to make choices as one > ascends the levels. At the lowest inorganic level, the freedom is so small > that it can be said that nature follows laws but the quantum theory shows > that within the laws the freedom is still there..." (Annotn 75) > > > dmb says: > Thanks, Andre. Nice work, as usual. > > This is what I've been saying all along. It probably won't convince Steve... Steve: Convince me of what? I quoted that bit several times and long ago in this discussion. You seemed to have missed the quotes that add something interesting... On p222 of Lila's Child, Bodvar asks: "If the world is composed of values, then who is doing the valuing? ... Pirsig's response to Bodvar: "This is a subtle slip back into subject-object thinking. Values have bee converted to a kind of object in this sentence, and then the question is asked, "If values are an object,then where is the subject?" The answer is found in the MOQ sentence,"It is not Lila who has values, it is values that have Lila."Both the subject and the object are patterns of value."( Annotn 76). To further clarify: "It's important to remember that both science and Eastern religions regard "the individual" as an empty concept. It is literally a figure of speech. If you start assigning concrete reality to it, you will find yourself in a philosophic quandary".( Annotn 77) The freewill vs determinism debate can better be restated in terms of preference and probability (which, as Pirsig says, are subsets of value). This makes much more sense, also from an evolutionary perspective where "...Pirsig's particular perception of the universe's evolution [is seen] as being primarily an evolution of values...". ( Anthony's PhD p 87) Steve: If the individual is a figure of speech, then talking about the individual "making choices" is a figure of speech about a figure of speech. At no point does it begin to make any MOQ sense to say that the individual possesses or does not possess "free will." We literally are our value choices. Quality has Lila. The question in the MOQ is not about whether the individual possesses free will but whether values themselves are free. Pirsig's answer is that DQ is the free sort. SQ is the non-free sort. Talking about a person choosing one thing or another has no metaphysical reality in the MOQ. It is just a figure of speech. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
