Mark, 'I' is a conventional designation.
Maybe you should stick to your 'automatic writing' where you can continue to impress yourself. I am not interested in your further interpretation. Marsha On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:32 PM, 118 wrote: > Hi Marsha, > When you start out below with "I", what are you pointing at? > > Your quotes below are interesting, and I have read many similar philosophical > arguments. When you complain about DMV not being consistent that surprises > me since you subscribe to "ever changing patterns". I would think that you > would fully understand DMV based on that theory. So, I do not know if you > are just being argumentative for fun, or if you are very confused about what > you are. > > What you further describe in the first paragraph is simply the confusion that > living in Language brings, nothing more. > > When I have more time I will provide my interpretation of what you quote > below and how it all points to the existence of self. > > Cheers, > > Mark > > On Sep 16, 2011, at 4:44 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Mark, >> >> I experience only a flow of ever-changing, conditionally co-dependent and >> impermanent, static patterns of inorganic, biological, social and >> intellectual value in the infinite field of Dynamic Quality. The 'self' can >> best be represented by the tetralemma formulation. >> >> ------------- >> >> "This formulation is a tool towards understanding concepts such as the >> not-self (or anatta) doctrine that is not handled particularly well by >> binary logic. So, as with every static value pattern, the notion of the >> ‘self’ in Buddhist philosophy is not simply considered an ‘illusion’ or an >> entity (as claimed by some Christian understandings of the ‘soul’) with an >> inherent self-existence. >> >> "That is, everything exists by being related to everything else >> (‘dependent co- >> origination’ is the usual term), but does not exist by itself. There is no >> way to >> state this in a way that conforms to Aristotelian logic. Hence the need for >> the >> logic of contradictory identity. The self exists by negating itself, as >> Nishida puts >> it. So, the phrase ‘the self is an illusion’ is just as much an error in >> Buddhist >> philosophy as ‘the self exists’. The traditional Buddhist formulation is >> the >> tetralemma: >> >> One cannot say that the self exists. >> One cannot say that the self does not >> exist. >> One cannot say that self both exists and does >> not exist. >> One cannot say that the self neither exists nor does >> not exist. >> (Roberts, 2004) >> >> "Though he doesn’t knowingly employ the logic of the tetralemma, Pirsig does >> share numerous ontological beliefs with Buddhist philosophy such as >> Nagarjuna’s (c.300a, p.251) perception that the unconditioned (or Dynamic) >> is the fundamental nature of the conditioned (or static): >> >> In their ultimate nature things are devoid of conditionedness and >> contingency >> belongs to this level. This very truth is revealed by also saying that all >> things >> ultimately enter the indeterminate dharma or that within the heart of every >> conditioned entity (as its core, as its true essence, as its very real >> nature) there is >> the indeterminate dharma. While the one expresses the transcendence of the >> ultimate reality, the other speaks of its immanence. The one says that the >> ultimate reality is not an entity apart and wholly removed from the >> determinate, >> but is the real nature of the determinate itself. >> (Cooper,2002) >> >> (McWatt, A Critical Analysis of Robert Pirsig’s Metaphysics of >> Quality,pp.55-56) >> >> ------------- >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> On Sep 16, 2011, at 3:26 PM, 118 wrote: >> >>> Marsha, >>> Are you speaking in theory? Your posts definitely suggest that you truly >>> believe it exists. For example every time you use the pronoun "I". It is >>> fine to deal in theories if they can be substantiated. It is better to >>> post on our realities if they exist. >>> >>> I could say that nothing exists in theory and that we should drop that word >>> from our vocabulary since it only misdirects. So, if the self does not >>> exist, there is no need to describe it other than "non-existent". Is this >>> where you are at with your metaphysics? If so, then I must caution you >>> that you are in a cul-de-sac, on a very long and rewarding road. Accept >>> your existence as analogy and move on. All in MHO. >>> >>> If the self does not exist, then what does it? Ball in your court, >>> love-love. >>> Mark >>> >>> On Sep 15, 2011, at 9:57 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Mark, >>>> >>>> The self neither exists, nor doesn't exist, nor both exists & doesn't >>>> exist, nor neither exists and doesn't exist. >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sep 16, 2011, at 12:44 AM, 118 wrote: >>>> >>>>> OK, so you do believe in the existence of Self, my mistake. >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> On Sep 15, 2011, at 9:20 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 15, 2011, at 8:45 PM, 118 wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sure one can deny the existence of Self like Marsha does, >>>>>>> but that is nonsense. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark, >>>>>> >>>>>> I deny the existence of an independent, autonomous self. The >>>>>> "self" is a flow of ever-changing, conditionally co-dependent >>>>>> and impermanent, static patterns of inorganic, biological, social >>>>>> and intellectual value in the infinite field of Dynamic Quality. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Marsha >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
