Cheers Mark
On Sep 16, 2011, at 8:07 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Mark, > > 'I' is a conventional designation. > > Maybe you should stick to your 'automatic writing' where you can continue to > impress yourself. I am not interested in your further interpretation. > > > Marsha > > > > > > > On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:32 PM, 118 wrote: > >> Hi Marsha, >> When you start out below with "I", what are you pointing at? >> >> Your quotes below are interesting, and I have read many similar >> philosophical arguments. When you complain about DMV not being consistent >> that surprises me since you subscribe to "ever changing patterns". I would >> think that you would fully understand DMV based on that theory. So, I do >> not know if you are just being argumentative for fun, or if you are very >> confused about what you are. >> >> What you further describe in the first paragraph is simply the confusion >> that living in Language brings, nothing more. >> >> When I have more time I will provide my interpretation of what you quote >> below and how it all points to the existence of self. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Mark >> >> On Sep 16, 2011, at 4:44 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> Mark, >>> >>> I experience only a flow of ever-changing, conditionally co-dependent and >>> impermanent, static patterns of inorganic, biological, social and >>> intellectual value in the infinite field of Dynamic Quality. The 'self' >>> can best be represented by the tetralemma formulation. >>> >>> ------------- >>> >>> "This formulation is a tool towards understanding concepts such as the >>> not-self (or anatta) doctrine that is not handled particularly well by >>> binary logic. So, as with every static value pattern, the notion of the >>> ‘self’ in Buddhist philosophy is not simply considered an ‘illusion’ or an >>> entity (as claimed by some Christian understandings of the ‘soul’) with an >>> inherent self-existence. >>> >>> "That is, everything exists by being related to everything else >>> (‘dependent co- >>> origination’ is the usual term), but does not exist by itself. There is no >>> way to >>> state this in a way that conforms to Aristotelian logic. Hence the need for >>> the >>> logic of contradictory identity. The self exists by negating itself, as >>> Nishida puts >>> it. So, the phrase ‘the self is an illusion’ is just as much an error in >>> Buddhist >>> philosophy as ‘the self exists’. The traditional Buddhist formulation is >>> the >>> tetralemma: >>> >>> One cannot say that the self exists. >>> One cannot say that the self does not >>> exist. >>> One cannot say that self both exists and does >>> not exist. >>> One cannot say that the self neither exists nor does >>> not exist. >>> (Roberts, 2004) >>> >>> "Though he doesn’t knowingly employ the logic of the tetralemma, Pirsig >>> does share numerous ontological beliefs with Buddhist philosophy such as >>> Nagarjuna’s (c.300a, p.251) perception that the unconditioned (or Dynamic) >>> is the fundamental nature of the conditioned (or static): >>> >>> In their ultimate nature things are devoid of conditionedness and >>> contingency >>> belongs to this level. This very truth is revealed by also saying that all >>> things >>> ultimately enter the indeterminate dharma or that within the heart of every >>> conditioned entity (as its core, as its true essence, as its very real >>> nature) there is >>> the indeterminate dharma. While the one expresses the transcendence of the >>> ultimate reality, the other speaks of its immanence. The one says that the >>> ultimate reality is not an entity apart and wholly removed from the >>> determinate, >>> but is the real nature of the determinate itself. >>> (Cooper,2002) >>> >>> (McWatt, A Critical Analysis of Robert Pirsig’s Metaphysics of >>> Quality,pp.55-56) >>> >>> ------------- >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> On Sep 16, 2011, at 3:26 PM, 118 wrote: >>> >>>> Marsha, >>>> Are you speaking in theory? Your posts definitely suggest that you truly >>>> believe it exists. For example every time you use the pronoun "I". It is >>>> fine to deal in theories if they can be substantiated. It is better to >>>> post on our realities if they exist. >>>> >>>> I could say that nothing exists in theory and that we should drop that >>>> word from our vocabulary since it only misdirects. So, if the self does >>>> not exist, there is no need to describe it other than "non-existent". Is >>>> this where you are at with your metaphysics? If so, then I must caution >>>> you that you are in a cul-de-sac, on a very long and rewarding road. >>>> Accept your existence as analogy and move on. All in MHO. >>>> >>>> If the self does not exist, then what does it? Ball in your court, >>>> love-love. >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> On Sep 15, 2011, at 9:57 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mark, >>>>> >>>>> The self neither exists, nor doesn't exist, nor both exists & doesn't >>>>> exist, nor neither exists and doesn't exist. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marsha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sep 16, 2011, at 12:44 AM, 118 wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> OK, so you do believe in the existence of Self, my mistake. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 15, 2011, at 9:20 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 15, 2011, at 8:45 PM, 118 wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sure one can deny the existence of Self like Marsha does, >>>>>>>> but that is nonsense. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mark, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I deny the existence of an independent, autonomous self. The >>>>>>> "self" is a flow of ever-changing, conditionally co-dependent >>>>>>> and impermanent, static patterns of inorganic, biological, social >>>>>>> and intellectual value in the infinite field of Dynamic Quality. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
