> [Arlo previously]
> Yes, especially the part about how it "unites our minds as the cells of a
> body are united". It also reminds us on how the "logos" derives from a
> cultural context, and that this dialogism is inescapable.
>
> [Platt]
> "Dialogism?" What big words you use, Grandma.
>
> [Arlo]
> Sorry if big words give you trouble, Platt. (Gonna do some thread
> consolidation here).
If you care about your readers, you should be sorry for any word that
might give them trouble. You will not find words like "dialogism" in
Pirsig's writings.
> [Platt]
> Anyway, what ever became of "collective consciousness?" Seems you are now
> agreeing to Horse's suggestion to substitute the plainer "common
> knowledge."
>
> [Arlo]
> Read my response to Horse.
I did. Seems you agree with "common knowledge" instead of "collective
consciousness." If so, it's a sign of progress.
> [Platt]
> Ah, a point of agreement. I wrote in another post: "We, like Lila,
> individually consist of the four static levels of morality plus the ability
> to respond to DQ."
>
> [Arlo]
> Adding the word "individually" belies your adherence to S/O dualism. Better
> just to say "We consist of the four static levels of morality plus the
> ability to respond to DQ". Recall that the collective consciousness "unites
> our minds as cells are united in the body of man".
Adding the word "individually" points to the fact that you, me, Lila and
the brujo each consist of the four static levels or morality plus the
ability to respond to DQ. If that's S/O dualism, Pirsig is equally
guilty.
> [Platt]
> That the levels influence and affect one another is not an issue.
>
> [Arlo]
> It most certainly is. The ability to respond to DQ (on the social and
> intellectual levels), for example, derives from the the interplay between
> bodily-kinesthetic "proprietary" experience AND the appropriation of the
> collective consciousness. ("So and so culture exists, therefore I think,
> therefore I am").
The ability to respond to DQ is the normal state of being a human being.
As Pirsig made clear, no culture needed for a baby to respond to DQ.
She just does what comes naturally. Later she acquires social/intellectual
patterns (common knowledge) that are "transmitted from generation to
generation." (Lila, 9)
> [Platt]
> Any chance you can restate this in plain English?
> [Arlo]
> As embodied beings (biological agents),
> we have an inescapable
> bodily-kinesthetic experience that is unique (I include inorganic in this,
> as I said, but don't stress it because I find it more or less universal).
Translation: I'll never know what it's like to be kissed by me.
> The collective consciousness emerges as social interactivity between
> biological agents begins (something that requires the evolution of quite
> complex biological patterns).
Translation: I learned in school what a lot of other people learned, or
what is sometimes called "common knowledge.".
> As complexity on the social level is
> achieved, a "self" emerges as a referential point in organization of these
> two (bodily-kinesthetic and social). This "self" is not external to either,
> but a construct of both. As social patterns increase in complexity, and
> intellectual patterns begin to emerge from collective social activity,
> these patterns too become part of the collective consciousness and are in
> turn transformed and transform the self as it "becomes".
Translation: As soon as I learned my name, I became a "self." As a
matured, I learned more, and others learned more about me..
> The ability to respond to DQ, on subsequent levels of static quality,
> derives from our appropriation of these patterns. We can respond to
> biological quality because we ARE collective biological patterns. We can
> respond to social quality because we ARE collective social patterns. We can
> respond to intellectual quality because we ARE collective intellectual
> patterns. (Notice that this simply restates "We consist of the four levels
> of static morality"). Our ability to respond to DQ derives from the
> appropriation of these patterns AND, or IN DANCE WITH our unique
> bodily-kinesthetic (including inorganic) experience.
Translation: As I gain more knowledge, I can respond to DQ at higher
levels.
> Finally, note that the collective consciousness, according to Pirsig, does
> indeed include the intellectual level. In the segment you cite in an
> attempt to show otherwise, you omit this precedent.
>
> "The mythos-over-logos argument points to the fact that each child is born
> as ignorant as any caveman. What keeps the world from reverting to the
> Neanderthal with each generation is the continuing, ongoing mythos,
> transformed into logos BUT STILL MYTHOS, the huge body of common knowledge
> that unites our minds as cells are united in the body of man."
Translation: The more I learn, the more I know what a lot of other people
know. This makes it easier to get along with others.
Platt
moq_discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
