----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 2:53 PM
 
In a message dated 4/11/2004 8:09:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<<If people are really concerned about publishers using the OGL to claim PI on terms couldn't they just use the principle of PI against itself? >>


Given that you quoted me, that's not my concern.  My concern is that I've been told any number of times on this list that rules, etc. can't be PI'd and that every major publisher agrees.  They clearly don't.

I'm not chastising Chris Pramas or Monte Cook an iota for wanting to PI things, provided that they can do so clearly an unambiguously (and I'm not always sure that the latter has always been done).
 
I didn't mean to imply that you were chastising Chris Pramas or Monte Cook for wanting to PI things. I was mainly directing this point further up the chain (to the people that were arguing the issue with you). You are not the only person on this list that likes to play devils advocate. ;-)
 


<<On the other hand if there are not any authors out there that *really* want to fight against crippled content then you won't see this subject on the mailing list again. I wait to be convinced that the people that dislike crippled content are actually prepared to *do something about it* instead of just moaning about it.
>
>


Dude, I'm not moaning about it.  In fact, I've argued that, like it or not, as long as it is handled under the terms of the license, people have a right to cripple their product to make OGC extraction possible and clear, but not worth the trouble. 
 
As I said above I don't think you are moaning (at least not about what I was writting about ;-) ). I've even agreed that people had the right to cripple their product myself.
 


What I want, is for Ryan and others who claim consistently that everyone agrees to admit that there are several major publishers who explicitly DO NOT agree with them on PI'ing phrases and rules.

I'm hoping that they'll discuss things and either pick a traditional (if not legally binding) industry standard, or WotC will update the license so that people can voluntarily migrate to it to get rid of the gray areas of the license.

Almost every time I bring up a gray area I'm told that I just don't understand, but the "real" publishers do, and they all agree.  That is increasingly showing to be an argument without substance.

That is not saying Green Ronin, Monte Cook, Ryan, or anyone else has the morally or legally right answer.  That's not the point.  The point is to find _an_ answer that the big boys, at the very least, can agree upon.  If they can't, then that, to me, is a sign that the license could be clearer.
 
Maybe they don't want to admit that there is disagreement about the interpretation of the OGL in case that admission can later be used in court to allow a court to make an interpretation.
 
Under section 14 this might enable a court to "reform" the licence. If lawyers managed to get the licence reformed, it wouldn't be the same as a new version of the licence, which people say is optional, but might affect all the existing licences.
 
If this happened (which I am not saying is a certainty) all the parties concerned would loose the ability to say "we believe the OGL means..." and things would be forced onto them by that precedent in the courts. While this might please you (a person who is interested in common agreement) and it might please people who already have the interpretation that the court decision favoured the other people would loose out. As nobody actually knows exactly what the OGL means legally, until this happens. People can not tell who would loose out. For a company that has a lot of money involved in role playing products, I can't see any reason why they would want to force the issue.
 
As for a new version of the OGL, people have already said that the OGL allows you to use any version. WotC is already known to want to use PI to protect certain words that other people say are not part of OGC and can not be PIed. So unless the new OGL gives away something that can not be used unless you renounce older OGLs people will still use the older versions that are not agreed upon if they think might support their position on PI/OGC in a potential court case [1].
 
Even if the next OGL clears up all *future* ambiguity, I am fairly sure that a lawyer could say: "WotC actually changed what the OGL meant. It used to mean A, B and C. My clients used the earlier versions in good faith, and when this legally different licence came out they chose to stick with the one with the *correct* interpretation."
 
So unless there is a court case to "reform" the existing licences, I can not see that getting people to agree that they don't agree, will make them start to agree in the future. WotC will only be able to force people to change via the d20stl and if publishers are convinced that the interpretation not supported by the hypothetical next licence is good for them then they could just drop the "d20 System" logo and maintain their brand loyalty via their existing reputation. If six or more publishers dropped the "d20 System" logo at the same time, they might even throw all their PR behind promoting a rival "compatibility" logo either Prometheus or something else agreed upon by them collectively.
 
David S
 
[1] Allegedly ;-)

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