On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:27:11PM -0500, Sterling Hughes wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, James Moore wrote:
> > > Ummmmm...
> > >
> > > If I'm not mistaken, the midgaurd extension itself, only provides
> > > functionality to the "midguard" application?  Ie, end-users of midguard
> > > will not use the functions and classes exported by the extension, only
> > > midguard will use that functionality?
> > >
> > > If so, I'm not too sure it would be a good idea to include the midguard
> > > extension in PEAR either...
> > 
> > There is nothing stopping someone else making a php app that uses midguard
> > extension if they want to.
> Right, but from what I understand the functions only make sense for the
> midguard application.
Please clarify what you are understanding under term "midgard application"?
Going this way anybody could say that MySQL extension only make sense for
MySQL applications, IRCG -- for IRCG applications (no offense for Sascha :)
and so on.

Yes, Midgard provides different approach to store and process information
than, f.g. MySQL extension, but it simply difference at high level. People
are using Midgard together with other extensions as well, f.g. PostgreSQL,
IRCG, ming, etc. and nobody said that Midgard functions only make sense
for Midgard application. It is matter of proper design of application.

> >  I can see your point but if there is a feeling that it should be
> > distributed with PHP in someway PEAR seems the most logical place. By your
> > arugment why should midguard be in ext/ either as noone but people running
> > midgard use it. PEAR is somewhere where it would be easy to retive from
> > (eventually) and is hopefully where we will eventually have other non
> > standard extensions.
> > 
> Yes, and no offense intended, I don't see why the midguard people don't
> just distribute the extension *with* midguard.  I could see some sense in
We did it for years with prepatched PHP 3.x. It always caused problems
with both PHP team and end users (former was not in favor in having
another PHP3 version which was extended in the core, latter were unable
to use Midgard without recompiling PHP3). We spent thousand of hours to
make possible co-existance of Midgard and original PHP core engine (PHP3
in first, Zend Engine in second), did it, got big experience in template
generation, found zillion bugs in both PHP versions (most of them were
fixed during this process). One thing that we would not to do is to
close this experience inside our product. Instead, we are trying to give
away it for anybody in other projects too. PHP has no templating system
at core and implementations in PHP itself are rather ineffective for
high-loaded applications. I don't want to initiate additional flame
here, please see the problem in open eyes. Ask Zend folks, they have our
proposals, even C code to Zend engine to implement native templating
with no connection to Midgard at all -- this system was designed to be
generic for any template providers. Midgard could be one of these
template providers, not exclusive one. It is some kind of extension like
session but better because it also works with template providers
instantiated from dynamically loaded modules.

> distributing it with PHP, because then users of midguard really didn't
> have to worry about compiling twice, etc, its already built-in to
> php.  While I'm not for that idea (it adds 70k of bloat), I don't see the
> point in distributing it with PEAR.  When you distribute it with pear
> there is no advantage for the midguard people (or anyone) that I can see
> (or advantage greater than just distributing the midguard extension with
> midguard itself).
We are really want to help PHP team to improve build environment and I'm
personally did it in past month, look into archives. What is strange is
that PHP team itself does not want to see problem with build environment
as serious and continue talk about 'bloat' in code instead of productive
work. It is sad.

Please see this discussion as a call for collaborative discussion how to
find solutions and improvements, not as an 'angry' answer. Latter is not
productive in any movement, especially in Open Source.
Sincerely yours, Alexander Bokovoy 
  The Midgard Project    | ALT  Linux  Team | Minsk Linux Users Group
 www.midgard-project.org | www.altlinux.ru  |    www.minsk-lug.net 
-- Since we're all here, we must not be all there.
                -- Bob "Mountain" Beck

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