Hum de dum. Been working on code for five clients, for the last 
15 hours, and what's this? An old fashioned flamewar?

On Monday, July 9, 2001, at 10:52  AM, Zeev Suraski wrote:
> Sascha,
> As a matter of fact, some of your negative contributions, i.e., 
> having a horrible attitude and a limitless ego, caused PHP's 
> development a great deal of damage.

I have this to say, about that....

I'm a doc guy. Not much social status here. I read C,  and write 
and patch it, but my contributions to the PHP project itself are 
primarilly about docs, about making php usabe, and viable, for 
PHP users.

You know what would make me really happy? Chucking the code that 
generates the most bug fixes, the most doc notes, the most 
complaints and questions.

Why? Excessive WTF factors. You want to know where our greatest 
bug problems are? Look to the supposedly "bogus" bug reports. 
Want to know what code sucks the most for end users? Look to 
errata notes, and bug reports. If it's complex to learn and 
understand, then it's broken.


If your code sucks, people will complain.

I don't care how skilled or insightful or how elegantly abstract 
your C is, this isn't C. It's PHP. I don't care how great your 
"über ideas" about code constructs, or new functions, are, if 
you *don't* make them easier to use, while adding important 
value to PHP users, your *code* is the problem, not the user, 
not the docs.

I don't even know (haven't looked) at who wrote it, but the two 
most damaging contribs in WTF terms have been our OO, and 
sessions. Both have generated lots of confusion, scorn, 
derision, errata, and bug reports, for being 
not-quite-straightforward and sensible.

Of course, if neither of these two slams hit you two, why don't 
you compare numbers on your personal code, and see who has had 
more bug complaints/doc complaints/etc about your code, as 
viewed by those who have to work with it on a daily basis. (I 
have no idea who I just pissed off, but please realize the bug 
reports and errata are more than just "bitchy users", they are 
also ratings on how usable the code is.... and both of these 

>  Perhaps I'll be surprised, but my guess is that most people 
> could live seeing you disappear from the PHP Group and PHP 
> development in general, a few lightyears before they would like 
> to see me disappear from there.

Nobody is irreplaceable. There's thousands of guys waiting to 
get the same fame, or power, or bragging rights, as you two. 
Many are as, or more, talented, knoledgeable, skillful, or 
educated as you both, but weren't in the right places at the 
right time.

>   It doesn't mean that neither of us has to step away from this 
> project, but perhaps you should finally take some time to 
> figure out the meaning of the word humility, like our Norwegian 
> friend once suggested.


The very concept of the star-chamber-like "php-group" has raised 
some eyebrows. ESR's book highlights both the advantages, and 
disadvantages, of this process. If this was an open-source 
project, one of you could just fork off, :-) ....but right now 
you're having a war in front of the troops.... bad.

I suggest you both learn to STFU[1], and listen. Humility is not 
something you can teach, so much as something you can learn. 
Others choose not to learn it, and eventually they are ignored 
for being the always-right-and-insulting-you-for-it  individuals 
they are, which, of course, is exactly this kind of person that 
*nobody* will listen to. Nobody cares about you if you're right 
if you're right *all the time*.

Since I've suffered ego-driven scorn from both of ya'll over the 
last year or so, I'd say some general STFU time is needed, so 
you two can calm down, and ascend to guruhood behavior, rather 
than fighting like feudal warlords in ancient japan. Maybe you 
can give the PHP lists wisdom instead of simple flamewars.

> At 20:35 9/7/2001, Sascha Schumann wrote:
>>     Zeev,
>>     I've given you more than half a year already to add the
>>     necessary logic to support accepting strings as input and
>>     exactly nothing happened.

Hey, Sascha, we (as a project) get patches that take *years* to 
commit. Since I feel like the newbie in this war, I'll put it 
this way:
1. It doesn't matter if the code "works".
2. It doesn't matter if *you* "really need it".
3. It doesn't matter how long it takes, doing the hasty wrong 
thing is worse then "doing nothing".

I sugest you chill, and watch a few good movies or read a book. 
(You too, Zeev). I recommend _Gödel, Escher, and Bach, The 
eternal Golden braid_, and if you've read that, try Joyce's 
_Ulysses_ or the movies in the Wim Wenders section of your local 
movie rental store.

>>    And I certainly don't want to burn all
>>     the dynamic of the PHP project by sitting around and hoping
>>     that you "may" change your license at some undetermined point
>>     in the future.  Thanks, but no.

I hate the license too. (Check the archives if ya want...) It's 
not like it's unchangeable, though.....

However, it can't be changed by attacking somebody publicly. 
That's a really bad way of trying to do something.

It _can_ be changed by respecting an author's work, and 
appealing to their sense of community, their sense of 
collaboration, their love of code, of the language(s), and by 
providing them with other channels for income.


[1]STFU=Shut The Fuck Up.

[EMAIL PROTECTED], 520-326-6109,
The opinions expressed in this email are not necessarily those 
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