Hello, This thread is not going anywhere because you continue to be insensitive to everything I tell you.
Zeev Suraski wrote: > > At 05:28 02/01/2002, Manuel Lemos wrote: > > > (b) If we do it, it'll go on leaking as it does today > > > >False, if you do it you will give one less reason for users to drop PHP. > > That sentence MEANS that though. Maybe you weren't sure of what you were > saying, but saying "We have to do X in order to prevent even more users > from leaking" means that even if we do X, users will go on leaking as they > do now, and if we don't do X, they'll leak more. I am sure that I always meant if you provide built-in Web services consuption support the users will not have that excuse to drop PHP. If they drop PHP it will be for other reasons that you may need to find out but that is unrelated to this suggestion. > Again, I wasn't expecting you to answer me point by point on this and tell > me if you think it's right or not. As I said - "if it's the truth - we > don't want to hear it" - especially when people here don't think it's the > truth. Think positive. Of course, you may not want to believe it now. What I have been trying to tell you for a long time is that history has shown that all languages had their best days and worst days. You may disagree just because you only want to be optimist but if PHP does not adapt to the user needs, PHP best days are over. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the rush for Web services already started and it is going to increase a lot very soon because it provides a new way to for service/content provides to make money from the Internet. If PHP is not at least as a good solution as other languages that are already capable of providing built-in consuption, you leave users interested on that no other choice as dropping PHP for those languages. I am not even guessing. It already happened in some other forum where some user was really trying hard for defending PHP in his company for providing and consuming Web services. I pointed him to several SOAP based classes that he could use but he told me that it was not convincing in his company because people there are already aware that even Visual Fox Pro (I thought nobody was using that anymore) can do it now with built-in commands making it a trivial task compared with the complexity of using PHP for the same purpose. It doesn't require a smart person to realize that cases like this will be increasing and people will use something else like when PHP did not have built-in session support. > >You are still not getting it, I don't have a problem when people do not > >accept my ideais. My problem only happens when arises when people invent > >forced excuses for not accepting my ideas or at least to not put them in > >practice. > > What excuses did I make up? What excuses did I even mention? This is your lame excuse for not doing it: > About SOAP and Web services - I agree with you that it would be very good > to have built-in support for it in PHP. However, suggesting this kind of > ideas is usually pretty pointless, unless you're willing to actually do > something about it. I think the only time it worked in the past was when > Sascha picked up the challenge of creating a session module for PHP, > because PHP really needed one (kodus to Sascha on that) - but that's the > exception to the rule. Meaning, "your idea is good, but my excuse for not doing it is because of the way you suggested". Very lame excuse! > I said that the preachy way in which you presented your idea is not going > to get you anywhere, let alone PHP. You may have encouraged someone to That is really silly because you think that following my suggestion you would be doing me a favour! ahahahgah Zeev, get a grip. My developments are no longer PHP specific. I don't care about built-in Web services support in PHP for myself. I would not use them in my software. However, it would help me to make a better case to convince people to stick with PHP. I am sorry that you are so obcessed to do whatever you think I want, that you lost focus and still don't see that doing that you are only causing harm to your business. Zeev, take some vacation, you seem to be really needing them! There seems to be already some key developers taking vacation of PHP development after you have been refusing their proposals in Zend 2 list. Maybe you need a rest to stop putting down people that only come here to bother to help you. > write a CORBA extension, and you definitely pissed off lots of other > developers. Is that good? Did it get you or PHP anywhere better? Are you pissed Zeev? Really? How do you feel I felt when you (PHP developers) broke backwards compatibility of some PHP functions after many years working the way they did, causing my site to stop working when I upgraded to PHP 4.1.0? How do you think I felt when you overruled 3 alternative solutions to repair the damage that you caused by making the mistake of breaking long standing PHP functions, thus making me spending several days to fix my site to ban such broken functions from its code? Don't come to me playing to be a victim of me pissing you, when you have not been such a saint! > I can assure you, by the way, that Andi didn't ask for out-of-the-blue > ideas from people who don't have any idea on how to do them, and have no > intention of doing anything about them themselves. How about a wiseguy > that will suggest to improve the speed of PHP 10 times around? Great, > we're all for it, but have a plan on how to do it, or be willing to work on > a plan if it's accepted. Read my original message, there is a plan on how to provide the suggested feature. Keeping putting down my suggestion as you do, only makes your quest to fight me, even sillier. > >It is like Richard Heyes said very well, while Andi asked for > >suggestions you promptly jumped in just to say it is pointless as if it > >was urgent to refuse my suggestion, or at least present an excuse for > >not implementing it. > > I did not refuse your suggestion or present any excuses. That's only in You are in denial. Read this message above again. > your preset mind. I said it's good, but I also said that you presented it > in a very, VERY poor way, as you tend to often do. There's no conspiracy There's the lame excuse again! > against you, I can assure you that, and if you cause many different people > to object to the way that you present your ideas, you can assume that the > problems lie in your hands, and not everybody else's. Good, revert the problem now to pretend that refusing people's suggestions (not just mine) has you been very into lately is just a problem of somebody else, never you. My mother was right, there is never one stubborn person alone. > >I hope you see this time is not "just Manuel". Things could have worked > >much better if you have to refused the countless times that I bothered > >to lend a hand, even if it was just presenting ideas and no code. Too > >bad that you usually only wanted to get me wrong as if what I was > >suggesting was not going to work in your favour. Anyway, it is not soon, > >but may be is not too late... > > I never refused a single time you bothered to lend a hand - I don't recall > a single time (other than this vague virtual marketing idea which I didn't Good, you just contradicted yourself in the same sentence. Anyway, you memory is really, really short. I don't have time nor patience to repeat myself about all the incidents regarding suggestions that I made in the last 4 years to improve PHP. On the bright side, it is also funny that some suggestions that I made ended up being implemented some time later after the discussions were over. So, I think it is better to end up this discussion now so somebody implements my suggestion, pretending that it was not suggested by myself. I don't care. When things end up being implemented, it just proves that these heated discussions were not in vain, regardless if anybody ever attributes the progress to my suggestion, that I honestly do not need any credit for. > consider too good). As far as I recall, you said that Rasmus refused your > help in the past, and I think I was the one that actually pushed for you to > get a CVS account. Not sure though, it was a long time ago. At any rate, > with all the differences I have with Rasmus, and God know we have lots - if > he refused to accept your help, you must have done something TERRIBLY wrong. Of course, I must have done something TERRIBLY wrong at least from his point of view. My guess is that I challenged his points of view in a public forum with technically correct arguments that he seemed to not like. I don't know, you have to ask him to let you know for sure. Anyway, the impression that you guys are passing is that you have this great view of yourselves that you are so good at this, that no "Manuel" should be allowed to challenge you. After all you are the kings a PHP, and nobody can challenge the kings, because the king is always right, and if "Manuel" challenges the king, "Manuel" must be wrong and his arguments must be fought until he shuts up. Maybe you do not intend to look this arrogant, but the fact is that you look arrogant to many of us, not just the "Manuels". The difference is that the "Manuels" dare to challenge the kings in public. Some people appreciate and cheer quietly, others (usually people that just got CVS accounts recently and want to show appreciation for that grace) join the kings and rage publically against "Manuel" because he is just one zealot and it is easier to fight one "Manuel" and fall in the grace of the kings. The funny part is that while this happens, I get some private e-mail of support of people amazed because I dare to challenge the kinds with pretty important questions. Enough chat, one day you will realize that you are just shooting the messenger just because he did not bring good news. Hopefully it will not be too late to react to such not so good news. Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP Development Mailing List <http://www.php.net/> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
