> pare, wala namang palitan ng paninindigan. i thought you said
> 'linux needs standards to survive.'  or did i not get your point.

Linux needs good, well thought standards, not 'hell-loads' of them 
that all try to do the same thing.

> > Qt, Gnome, Tk, KDE, linuxfb, fbdev, fbconsole, GGI, DRI, XFree, 
> > Motif, Windowmaker - many duplicating each other's functionality 
> > and waaaaay less mature than Win32 and DirectX.
> 
> these are not standards. these are brand names. different
> implementations/use of standards. maybe you are trying to point out how
> windows beats linux on the desktop.

Call them whatever you wish.  In practice a developer has to commit 
to working with one of them, otherwise they'll be spread out too thinly.
That effectively makes these 'standards'.  There is some kind of ironical 
truth to the Devo song that goes: Freedom of choice, is what you've 
got.  Freedom from choice, is what you want.

> > And let's not get started on all the different 'proprietary'
> > distros and their packaging formats.
> distros are brands. they're not standards.  after the end of the 
> day, they are all linux running the same protocols/standards.  mag 
> redhat ka man, 

In practice, the popular distros like Red Hat end up becoming de 
facto standards.  Has anyone been able to get Kylix 2 to run on 
Debian?  How easy/hard is it? With all the support its getting, I 
can see a future where Mandrake becomes synonymous with Linux (for
the majority of users). For better or worse, market forces have
now become an important part of driving the Linux standards game.
And this is something that MS has far more experience and wisdom
in (just because they're asshole businessmen doesn't make them stupid 
technologists - and apparently they've shown themselves to understand 
market needs far better than anyone else).

> this *is* a perfect argument.  take a look at NetBEUI, Microsoft PPP LCP
> Extensions, PPTP, Windows Internet Name Service, PDC/BDC/SMB (sorry for
> those using Samba) --- all hell loads of proprietary standards.  now,
> compare that to TCP/IP, DHCP, IPSEC, DNS, RADIUS, LDAP, SSH -- the real
> deal 'open standards'.  if you knew better, you'd note Microsoft took

Networking-wise, I prefer Linux to Windoze. Graphics-wise, the standards
used by Linux are around 2 steps behind Windows.  Cross-platform APIs like 
libSDL (it works on *doze/*nix/Macs/BeOS/etc...) are a VERY GOOD thing. 
But, by their nature, tend to lag behind the state of the art in hardware 
support.

> including Cisco IOS.  if it didnt, WinXP wont live up to its hype. as
> you've said, it'll probably die.  now do you see unix running those

Excuse me, I never said WinXP will die for lack of standards. Stop
putting words in my mouth, please. MS can make its own standards and has 
the clout to make them stick. Linux, on the other hand, *needs* open 
standards, or else it will lose its most important appeal. 

> > Open standards matter VERY VERY MUCH. But saying it is what matters 
> > *most* indicates either ignorance or an overzealous fanatical 
> > attitude. Of what use is an open standard if it is lousily written and
> > inadequate to meet your needs?
> hindi naman ako fanatic.  no OS is perfect.  you need a standard to be
> open so that its short-sightedness/inadequacies can be corrected
> better by the user community themselves. simply put proprietary
> standardization is a jurassic model. if open standards can get 
> screwed up, proprietary/closed ones pa kaya.

In real life, we have seen how, despite everyone's clamour for 
an open standard (OpenGL), the once derided (and deservedly so) 
Direct3D has stolen the lead from OpenGL in terms of standard 
hardware support.  Today, under OpenGL, you have to code 
to a different set of manufacturer specific extensions to use 
hardware shader functionality.  No such problem (although there
are complaints of the spec being too rigid) in DirectGraphics.

I still prefer OpenGL for the moment, but if 2.0 doesn't come 
out soon and proves itself to be a superior spec (it's openness 
being only a small part of that), I'm afraid DirectGraphics will 
end up the winner... just like the Win32 GUI architecture has proven 
far more dominant than X Windows. The former may not be open, but 
it seems that MS has done a far better job of correcting its 
inadequacies than the X consortium or X community has.

Experience in the graphics area has shown that open standards will 
not necessarily win over closed ones. The flip side of openness is 
that it sometimes promotes fragmentation.  The price to pay for freedom 
of can often be slower standardization.


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