Just a small point Bill, to pick up on something you mentioned. America
isn't the only country to use Protel, or any of the other CADs tools you
mention. In fact quite a few other countries even design electronics! So in
fact the effects of CAD prices, like Protel, effect everyone all over the
world so America is not likely to be less competative as a result of
Protels, sorry Altiums, change in policy. 

I can say that I agree that Altium will lose customers because of ATS. We
only recently (10months ago) selected Protel and one deciding factor was the
free tech support. If I was choose again, Protel may well lose out to a
competitors product simply because thier tech support  now has to be paid
for and the price took quite a significant hike recently.
Having said that I suspect that we will continue to use Protel for a few
years now however  we probably won't be adding any seats or paying for any
upgrades where we may have been tempted to if it wasn't for ATS.
Having said that some companies, previously using more costly tools, may
actually be tempted to buy Protel as a result of thier ATS program, it is a
very good tool but it does have problems, as do even the best out there. I
guess thats why they made the move top ATS. Good for the big boys but not
for the little man.

just my 2 pence worth


>  -----Original Message-----
> From:         "Brooks,Bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 9:04 PM
> To:   'Protel EDA Forum'
> Subject:      Re: [PEDA] ATS
> P.S. RE ATS:
> Just an added note... A very successful friend of mine gave me some advice
> a
> while a go... 'If you want to be a successful, don't be afraid to tell
> your
> secrets..... and always give good service...' He used to be the most
> productive new guy on the assembly line and had his work done correctly,
> way
> before the others... they suggested he keep his secrets to himself and not
> be so productive because it would do them all out of a job... He refused
> to
> agree with that because he wanted to give good service... Now he's a boss
> and they are gone... Lesson being, if you make things better for your
> customers they will come back to you and reward you over and over... where
> if you get greedy and back away from or cut good service... you will loose
> what market share you have and moreover you the reputation will prevent
> you
> from getting other clients... Every Cad company I have known that got
> greedy
> went out of business or is struggling ... I think that says it all...
> Remember Scicards, Applicon, Intergraph, Cadnetix, Orcad, Callay,
> Tellisys,
> EE Designer 3, PROCAD .... shall I go on?
> I don't use Mentor, Cadence, or PADS, Accel or P-CAD, Zuken Redac's
> Cadstar,
> because of the cost per seat, learning curve, poor editor interface, and
> the
> maintenance cost per year...(not that I wouldn't use them if there was no
> choice)...
>  I made the mistake of buying PADS (because there was a user base in San
> Diego) and what a nightmare... never got use out of the Spectraa Auto
> Router
> that we paid through the nose for... They need a novel size book for all
> the
> software bugs and workarounds (which they don't tell you about in the
> demos)...I spent hours and hours on the phone to the tech reps who were
> not
> always there but were out doing demo's with the Sales guy.... (I was not a
> happy camper)
>  The Main reason Protel was attractive was the cost per seat, ease of use,
> and low maintenance.... (and if they would fix the bugs in a timely manner
> the market would open to them just by word of mouth)  If CAD Companies
> drive
> up the cost of electronic product development it makes America less
> competitive in the world markets and at home... They should cut the
> salesman's commissions and recurring costs to A REASONABLE PERCENTAGE and
> provide good working product, and give good service.. They will be the
> only
> ones left after the smoke clears... Join the other Cad companies in their
> greed... end up in the graveyard with them... Its just common sense. This
> stuff always seems to happen when small companies make the transition to
> High overhead large companies.. Top heavy sales staffs, and support groups
> that are under funded...oh well my 2 cents worth....
> <soap-box mode off>
> Bill Brooks
> (back to designing PCB's with Protel)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 10:12 AM
> To: 'Protel EDA Forum'
> Subject: Re: [PEDA] ATS
> Perhaps they have had a 'mole' from PADS move in to scuttle the Protel
> company... It's really sounding a lot like what the Pads/Inoveda people
> have
> done to their abused users... I think most of us hate PADS and their
> stinking product upgrade structure... "Oh!.. you want to edit the parts...
> <grin> that is inside the edit module... fork over more cash"... etc...
> etc..
> - Bill Brooks
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:41 AM
> To: Protel EDA Forum
> Subject: Re: [PEDA] ATS
> > Screw them all if that's where the s/w world is heading. Windows2000
> (and
> > Office 2000) is pretty damn good and so is Protel (even though the
> router
> > isn't close to "state of the art")
> I, too, refuse to accept the .NET/XP scheme of time-limited
> remote-deactivated licensing, and the slightly less onerous (but still
> awful) software maintenance scheme.  Microsoft will encounter massive
> resistance to their new scheme once the public gets stung by it.  These
> strongarm attempts at revenue expansion seem doomed to fail in the face of
> increased competition from open source software.  Let's hope Protel
> (Altium,
> whatever they call themselves this week) realize the error of this change
> too.
> Some foolish elements must have seized control of Protel.  As evidence, I
> present the following facts:
> 1)  Corporate name change to Altium.  In the business world, a name change
> almost always does a company more harm than good.  Why piss away the
> million$ spent on advertising and building name recognition?
> 2)  Changing the software support model to this new ATS software
> maintenance
> monstrosity.  Free support was why many folks chose Protel software in the
> first place.  If we had wanted to pay for maintenance, we would have
> bought
> some other package.
> 3)  Acquisition of other companies.  The acquistion phenomena is purely a
> business play.  It doesn't benefit the Protel product in any way I have
> seen.  If the Altium folks want to play business money games, they should
> go
> work for an investment firm instead of a CAD software provider.
> Best regards,
> Ivan Baggett
> Bagotronix Inc.
> website:  www.bagotronix.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Karavidas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 2:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [PEDA] ATS
> > Well if you are right, I'm going to be stuck in a 2001 time zone. If
> Protel
> > and Microsoft fell off the face of the earth, I would still be able to
> > successfully:
> >
> > 1. Design "stuff"
> > 2. Write letters
> > 3. Write emails
> > 4. Collect money for my work.
> > 5. Pay my bills
> >
> > Screw them all if that's where the s/w world is heading. Windows2000
> (and
> > Office 2000) is pretty damn good and so is Protel (even though the
> router
> > isn't close to "state of the art")
> >
> > Tony

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