I'm sure they were former auto salesmen ... 'oh, you want brakes with it...
well that's the diamond option, and a steering wheel? Well you need the
platinum option...' etc... etc.. 


Bill Brooks 
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510


-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Sapienza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 12:35 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Good schematic/PCB development suite recommendation?

Mike,

You left out the surprise that Dimensioning is also an OPTION, yes it is
designed for and by marketing/sales guys, must be a dream for some of them,
lest we forget the maintenance fee is also relative to number of options

Joe



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "edsi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Good schematic/PCB development suite recommendation?


> I am in agreement with Bill Brooks and his comments about PADS.  I too own
a seat of PADS. Unfortunately for $8500  I can't use it.  DXF is an option,
design rules are a $4K option and get this.....copy and paste is an option.
GONG! piece of crap for $8500.
>
> If you asked me several years ago about Protel, I would stack it against
anything ( providing you never attempted to user the router). The main
advantage was user interface and getting up to speed.  There is no clear
advantage to other products. DXP is as cumbersome and awkward to use as
PCAD, Cadence, or Mentor. So given that all is equal
> Mentor is the  clear winner.
>
> Altium better start to listen to folks like Ray.  Ray came to the same
conclusions that everyone else has about DXP without anyone holding a
prompter if front of him.  Ray's statement are pretty significant from a
marketing standpoint
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike Reagan
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: "Brooks,Bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date:  Fri, 9 Apr 2004 09:12:42 -0700
>
> >Ray,
> >
> >I made the mistake that you are considering before. The group I was with
in
> >Temecula bought Pads on my misguided recommendation... I was taken in by
the
> >demo. The guys made it look so easy, then when I got the software and
> >realized they sold me a package that was stripped down compared to the
one
> >they demonstrated... I saw red.  If I wanted the package that did all the
> >fancy stuff like interactive routing and push and shove placement....
etc, I
> >would have to pay thousands more for the 'add-ons'. The total would come
to
> >about 22K... we chose not to by more stuff, but to try to get along with
> >what we bought. I cussed aloud many times when trying to learn to use the
> >software on my own. I took a 1 day compressed class and that didn't help
> >much either...
> >
> >Pads is functional, if not confusing... and if you don't know any tool it
> >can be fine, you just need to allow yourself 6 months to a year to get it
to
> >be really useful. Learning all the 'work arounds' can be a full time job,
> >and very frustrating when you have a job to get done. I spent a lot of
time
> >on the phone with the tech support guy in Los Angeles, He speaks with a
> >Russian accent to boot. That was not fun when he was out on sales
calls...
> >
> >The thing I am trying to say is, Protel was what we purchased after
fighting
> >with the PADS program for a month and a half. PADS would not take back
their
> >software, so we had to eat the 12 grand we invested in that software.
Later
> >I took a class at Palomar College that was using PADS and walked through
a
> >full semester of training with the package and still I don't like it, but
I
> >was able to use it. It's a frustrating package for a guy like me who
expects
> >to find the print command under the word, print. There's was buried in
some
> >dialog box that had no reference to printing at all.
> >
> >Protel has been a better software package than the PADS program was for
me,
> >mostly because Protel was more intuitive to use, I spent less time
looking
> >for a command or feature than I did with PADS and it was easier to use
and
> >it let me undo mistakes which PADS was notorious for NOT letting me do.
> >
> >The new 2004 product remains to be seen... I would be patient and don't
get
> >too discouraged with all the talk you hear on this forum... some of us
are
> >real idealists... I think I'm included in that group.
> >
> >As soon as I can get the time to spend on kicking the tires on the new
> >software I will let you know what I think of where we are with Protel.
> >In the mean time you can ask specific questions about the functionality
on
> >this forum and you might consider get the training class that Matthew
> >Berggren does on Protel if you can. It was helpful in getting a better
sense
> >of what the software can do and where you can go with it. Although I
found
> >when I was learning Protel that a local designer who had been using it
since
> >version 2.0 was more savvy and had better 'tricks' for being productive
with
> >it than I got anywhere else.
> >
> >I have been using Protel since version 98 and that was in 1998. It's not
a
> >bad package. There are just some features I wish it had that are less
than
> >perfect, but hopefully they will iron those out in the future.
> >
> >Feel free to give me a call if you need help. Or just publish your
questions
> >here and you have a lot of years of PROTEL experience here at your
> >fingertips with all these great guys and gals listening in. They will be
> >glad to help and discuss your issues I'm sure and even some of them are
> >programmers who will write user commands that you can use to get better
> >productivity out of the software.
> >
> >(Okay, so now I am an apologist for the Altium company... so shoot me...)
> >
> >
> >Actually, the best combo I have used so far in this price range is the
Orcad
> >schematic package with the Protel PCB editor and the Specctra Autorouter
and
> >AutoCad for the drafting of mechanical things like board outlines,
> >dimensions, etc...
> >
> >We use the schematic package here that comes with Protel and we get by
with
> >it. Have for the last 3 years.
> >
> >
> >Bill Brooks
> >PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I.
> >TITAN CORPORATION
> >DATRON WORLD COMMUNICATIONS DIVISION
> >3030 Enterprise Court, Vista, CA 92083
> >Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Website:
http://www.titan.com/business_units/index.html?organization_id=81
> >Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
> >_______________________________________
> >Member of the San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council
> >Communications Officer, Web Manager
> >http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Ray Mitchell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 7:42 AM
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: [PEDA] Good schematic/PCB development suite recommendation?
> >
> >Our group has used Protel for years.  I've tried to get everyone to
change
> >to something else for most of that time but the resistance has been
fairly
> >great.  It seems that the the philosophy has been that pain you know is
> >preferable to the pain you don't know.  However, with the introduction of
> >DXP/2004 everyone is starting to realize that a good tool is needed.  Is
> >there something that is generally considered to be the best?  I realize
> >that some of the tools cost significantly more but when the frustration,
> >poor results, and wasted time are considered, it may not actually be that
> >expensive.  One of the guys here uses PADS and really likes it.  If we
make
> >a change we don't want to make the same mistake we made with Protel
again.
> >
> >Ray Mitchell
> >Engineer, Code 2732
> >SPAWAR Systems Center
> >San Diego, CA. 92152
> >(619)553-5344
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
>




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