On Thu, Aug 03, 2017 at 12:43:31AM -0300, Franz wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star <evas...@openmailbox.org> wrote:
> > Hash: SHA256
> >
> > On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> >
> > > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> > > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> > > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> > > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> > > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> > > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> >
> > It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> > friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> > manager? :(
> >
> > Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> > important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> > Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> > will be amazing.
> >
> >
> Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen
> because it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization that
> I am too lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything with the
> Qubes Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid that the
> new arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new user since
> items are spread over different buttons/places.
> I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places on
> the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can
> separate things, but better put links to find them again.
> Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please
> 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and
> 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common
> routines
> Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I
> had my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against
> Qubes telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it
> without help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain Qubes
> without the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  But
> perhaps if we are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes matures
> enough, this may change. But we are not there yet.
> Best
> Fran

I completely disagree with you, and I'm with cooloutac on this.
I have a number of Qubes users who are fine, and NEVER touch the command
line. (Most of them would go to pieces at the prospect.) Most of them
rarely touch the Manager.

I suspect your wife suffered from your (self confessed ) laziness - 
If you spend some time customizing the menu, creating shortcuts, and
hiding the infrastructure as much as possible, then in my experience,
most users are fine with Qubes.
The problems they report are user problems - funny copy/paste between
qubes/ difficulty with full screen playback/ inability to open lots of
images in the same disposableVM/ Qubes toggling wifi hardware switch on
For these users, the loss of QubesManager will be almost completely

BUT, the new widget seems to me to be unreliable ,and doesn't keep
updated as qubes start.
Also,the very slow load times and lack of any user feedback on qubes
start are a major UX fail imo. Sometimes I see qubes fail to start for
no apparent reason, or loading with times in excess of 45 secs. Without
feedback that forces users to the command line, which is, I think, the
opposite of the intention. These are the major pain points for me.


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