On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Unman <un...@thirdeyesecurity.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 03, 2017 at 12:43:31AM -0300, Franz wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star <evas...@openmailbox.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hash: SHA256
> > >
> > > On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> > >
> > > > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> > > > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> > > > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> > > > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> > > > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> > > > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> > >
> > > It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> > > friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> > > manager? :(
> > >
> > > Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> > > important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> > > Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> > > will be amazing.
> > >
> > >
> > Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen
> > because it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization
> that
> > I am too lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything with the
> > Qubes Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid that the
> > new arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new user
> since
> > items are spread over different buttons/places.
> >
> > I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places
> on
> > the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can
> > separate things, but better put links to find them again.
> >
> > Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please
> > 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and
> > 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> >
> > The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> > The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common
> > routines
> >
> > Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I
> > had my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against
> > Qubes telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it
> > without help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain
> Qubes
> > without the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  But
> > perhaps if we are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes
> matures
> > enough, this may change. But we are not there yet.
> > Best
> > Fran
> >
> I completely disagree with you, and I'm with cooloutac on this.
> I have a number of Qubes users who are fine, and NEVER touch the command
> line. (Most of them would go to pieces at the prospect.)

Sorry, but I do not believe that. How can your users perform the following
basic required actions without a CLI:
 1. verify iso
2. put the iso on a usb stick
3. print (you need a custom DVM)
4. scan
5. update templates after EOL
6. update dom0 and templates when the same Manager command does not work
for some reason. How many times it happened?
7. solve various issues when something simply does not work as expected,
such as the last one with the wrong kernel when you Unman kindly helped me
to solve it with the terminal because it did not work with the Manager

Most of them
> rarely touch the Manager.
How can they update templates and dom0 without touching the Manager?

You users may be able to use Qubes only because you kindly help them with
the above and other issues. Nothing wrong with that of course, you are a
very nice person, but they are not autonomous. If they have to travel a
couple of months and something wrong happens, as with my wife that had wifi
dead, then they are unable to solve it. Worse,  NOBODY is able to help
because when they see Qubes they declare inability.  In that case I was
lucky to be able on the phone to tell her to connect with ethernet and
upgrade Fedora 24 to Fedora 25 and it fixed it. But it was just luck that
it worked and that she was able to correctly do what I told her. What was
broken? No idea.

Without you, coouloutac  or even me, always ready to help, how can a normal
person use Qubes without using the CLI. No way. Now Qubes is still a
project for geeks. Too many issues. And it is obvious that this state
cannot improve until we are obliged to continuously change architecture
such as the last one release 4 for the Xen issues. But hopefully this is
the last change we need to do and can concentrate on maturing Qubes into a
more mainstream product.

I suspect your wife suffered from your (self confessed ) laziness -
> If you spend some time customizing the menu, creating shortcuts, and
> hiding the infrastructure as much as possible, then in my experience,
> most users are fine with Qubes.
> The problems they report are user problems - funny copy/paste between
> qubes/ difficulty with full screen playback/ inability to open lots of
> images in the same disposableVM/ Qubes toggling wifi hardware switch on
> boot.
> For these users, the loss of QubesManager will be almost completely
> irrelevant.
> BUT, the new widget seems to me to be unreliable ,and doesn't keep
> updated as qubes start.
> Also,the very slow load times and lack of any user feedback on qubes
> start are a major UX fail imo. Sometimes I see qubes fail to start for
> no apparent reason, or loading with times in excess of 45 secs. Without
> feedback that forces users to the command line, which is, I think, the
> opposite of the intention. These are the major pain points for me.
> unman

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