On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 10:38 AM Dima Pasechnik <dimp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 6:26 PM William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 9:03 AM Dima Pasechnik <dimp...@gmail.com> wrote >> > > yes, Sage binaries on macOS in particular are total crap - in part thanks > to "let's vendor everything moving" approach, > in part thanks to Apple being bad to developers. > I assume you are talking about the official binaries that are distributed on Sagemath.org. Fortunately, the Sage binaries on MacOS that are produced by the conda-forge devs are not total crap. If you read https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/QeYle_D8Otc/m/_5Q8zHPLAwAJ?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer you'll see that Isuru Fernando quickly responded to my post with something I could copy/paste into the terminal on my Macbook M1 ARM laptop. I did so, waited for the download/install, and had what appeared to be a perfectly working self-contained pure userspace copy of Sage on my M1 laptop (and it is not using x86_64 emulation). Similarly, the "JupyterLab app" that sparked that thread is also a nice graphical MacOS installer for JupyterLab (via Electron) with the Python scientific stack bundled -- the guy who made it was introducing it in the JupyterLab weekly dev meeting, and within a few sentences of him telling us about it, I had installed and tested it and it was working. He also said that it wasn't particular hard for him to build, since so much work has gone into making things like conda-forge more mature. > > > >> Hopefully going forward, we can spoil users of Sage even more than we >> already are. >> > > Sage is trying to bite more than it can chew, and it is badly needs to > slim down, before becoming a total crap nobody uses. > If one wants to spoil (in the good way) Sage users on macOS, more brew > formulas are needed for Sage packages. > Then a similar to Sage on Debian Sage package might be possible. > This is totally orthogonal to vendoring things needlessly. > The way to spoil users of Sage on MacOS (or anywhere) is to create a binary installer that work really well, similar to what the JupyterLab devs did in [3]. It seems to me that this doesn't necessarily involve Homebrew or Debian Sage at all, but instead involve vendoring things, though that vendoring might better happen by joining forces with conda-forge, rather than duplicating their work. Isn't conda-forge also doing exactly the thing that you're arguing against as doing? I started Sage and its package system around the same time Travis Oliphant started conda, and it could have turned out that Sage's package system is the one that has 14000+ packages and everybody uses in the scientific Python ecosystem. It didn't turn out that way. I'm glad some people such as Isuru in the Sage community have embraced conda-forge. I hope we can focus on solving the big important problems, rather than whatever is being argued about in this thread. Matthias is right that another important big challenge is "pip install sagemath", and it sounds to me like he has a viable strategy to eventually solve that problem. It's a completely different problem than "binary that is easy for Ken Ribet to install on macOS", which conda-forge could solve. And yet a different big problem is a "Sage on Microsoft Windows", which conda-forge doesn't solve at all, and for which the cygwin solution isn't close to optimal. In conflict with all of the above, I also personally wish there were a significantly smaller Sage core with much less dependencies, and which removes everything from the Sage that annoys Dima, and much more. This is a difficult technical challenge, since it would certainly involve changing core parts of the library. E.g., it would be nice to have a working Sage that doesn't depend on Maxima or GAP being present, but still starts up and is generally useful for the rest of what Sage does. Creating such a thing involves making significant changes to the assumptions that can be made in the Sage library code about what they assume is available by default. -- William > >> [1] A good example of a representative influential mathematician, e.g., >> he was the last president of the American Mathematical Society. He uses >> MacOS. >> [2] https://github.com/jupyterlab/jupyterlab_app >> [3] >> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/QeYle_D8Otc/m/_5Q8zHPLAwAJ?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >> >> -- >> William (http://wstein.org) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "sage-devel" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CACLE5GB1PuUXJcU-d-PrOsYo1yL3BTeaJPsVsSq-3nGzT9095Q%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CACLE5GB1PuUXJcU-d-PrOsYo1yL3BTeaJPsVsSq-3nGzT9095Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAAWYfq0hT_e-2Mq1B4MVqEq1P5a929HHUo0bq3z-%2BexK36diRA%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAAWYfq0hT_e-2Mq1B4MVqEq1P5a929HHUo0bq3z-%2BexK36diRA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- William (http://wstein.org) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. 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