[RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-10 Thread Tom Matchak 
Yet another way to deal with the alignment of the dropped top tube and the 
mid-stays. Reynand style mid-stay attachment, no kink, just to swoop.

http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/34156114@N05/11348445043/

That's a 60cm frame over 650B wheels. As others have pointed out, that's a 
pretty high hurdle to step over. Still better, however, than a big leg swing 
with a stiff hip.

Cheers,
Tom Matchak

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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-09 Thread Jan Heine 


On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 7:03:09 PM UTC-8, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> Did all French builders use the TT stays? 
>
>
> Peugeot made many women's bikes with a single dropped top tube, but no 
extra rear stays. In the 1980s, their inexpensive models had the twin 
diagonal stays, but the more expensive,  performance-oriented women's model 
had the single, dropped top tube. I suspect the single dropped tube was 
influenced by the fashion for Italian bikes. Many Italian makers offered 
frames of this type. (In Germany where I grew up, it was very unusual even 
for a "sporting" woman to ride a "men's frame", so you saw these Italian 
frames, outfitted with Campagnolo components, on training rides.)

I've often wondered about the ride of these women's bikes. From a basic 
engineering perspective, I understand the idea that ending a tube in the 
middle of another tube is a big no-no – you want triangulation. That 
clearly is what Reyhand was thinking when he developed the model with the 
extra rear stays, which transmit the loads of the diagonal tube to the rear 
dropouts. On the other hand, the flexing of the seat tube (on the Italian 
frames) could provide a little suspension, which might not be bad. Then you 
have all the issues of frame flex and planing... where a "compact" frame 
(since that is what the Reyhand style was, if you remove the uppermost set 
of seat stays) might be stiffer than perhaps ideal for its rider.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com

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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread sameness 
Speaking of fixed gear, now that I've got my correspondence course diploma 
on a frame I couldn't give away 10 years ago, I'd say my circle is almost 
complete.
>
> Jeff "Ix-nay on the Mix-tay" Hagedorn
Warragul, VIC Australia
. 

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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Philip Williamson 
I agree. I recall the heated debates over "fixed gear" vs "fixed wheel," as 
well as the "Singlespeed is a misnomer, since they go many speeds!" and "Don't 
call it a fixie!" controversies. I reject those on slightly different grounds, 
though. 

You undermined your whole position, though, by reminding me that I could ever 
use the word "mamachari!" As in, "A true mixte is differentiated from a 
mamachari by its third set of stays." ;^)


Philip
www.bikepedantry.com

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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Philip Williamson 
Aha. I didn't keep the allowable variant mixte style in my mind. 
This not a mixte (ATS): 
http://www.biketinker.com/2012/fine-bikes/state-of-the-steyr-3-15-12/ (no third 
set of stays)
This IS a mixte: 
http://www.biketinker.com/2012/fine-bikes/state-of-the-belleville-3-21-12/ 
(twin tubes + lateral stays... What would those be? Top Tube Stays?)

Is there any source more original than Sheldon for the Strict Interpretation of 
mixte-hood? Did all French builders use the TT stays? 

Philip
www.biketinker.com

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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Leslie 
Oh, and while talking mixtes, here's a bike that brought me around to 
thinking about them
http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/2349587723/mountain-mixte-custom 


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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Leslie 
On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 3:39:01 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Leslie  I thought the same thing, but when I went back in the BLUG, that 
> special lug you are referring to is a seat lug, with the seatpost clamp and 
> everything.  Two different lugs. 
> Here's the famous one: or maybe you are talking about a different special 
> one than I was thinking of.  At any rate, the middle Cheviot lug looks the 
> same as the one on recent Betty Foys.
>


Hi Bill,

Nope;  I remember that lug, too;  but the one I was referring to, and asked 
Grant about, you can see in these two Rosco Bubbe pics:
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvr1jxwxCw1qdvnvk.jpg 
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvymvxcdZX1qdvnvk.jpg 

The thing that had caught my eye was the two 'wings' with sockets for the 
stays to come into the sides of the lug;  normal mixte or normal bike size, 
it is; but fat Bombas, need more room than that lug has...

-L



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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Joe Bunik 
it is a little bit Breezy, now that you mention it!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joe_bunik/4899070155/

On 1/8/14, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
> Fo-Sheezy, Joe Breezy
>
> On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 4:21:50 PM UTC-8, jbu...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> ceci n'est pas une Bombadil:
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/joe_bunik/4494454218/
>>
>> On 1/8/14, Bill Lindsay > wrote:
>> > Quote from Sheldon (AASHTA):
>> >
>> > According to Sheldon, a mixte is:
>> >
>> > "A style of lady's 
>> frame
>> > in which the "top tube
>> > "
>> > consists of a pair of small diameter tubes running more-or-less straight
>> >
>> > from the upper head lug ,
>> >
>> > past the seat tube
>> > ,
>>
>> > and on to the rear fork
>> > ends.
>> > A mixte frame thus has 3 sets of rear stays, instead of the usual two.
>> *A
>> > variant on the mixte uses a single, full sized top tube running from the
>> >
>> > upper head tube to the seat tube, but retains the middle set of stays*.
>> >
>> A
>> > lady's type bike that lacks the middle pair of stays is not a mixte."
>> >
>> >
>> > In other words, Sheldon defines a Rivendell as a variant of a mixte.
>>  The
>> > third set of stays is the critical part that supports the seat tube and
>> >
>> > makes it a mixte.  A Rivendell has the middle set of stays, and happens
>> >
>> to
>> > have a full size top tube.  Anybody who says a Rivendell is not a mixte
>> >
>> and
>> >
>> > uses Sheldon to defend their position, does not understand Sheldon's
>> > definition.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 3:56:30 PM UTC-8, Philip Williamson wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Sheldon does not appear to support his "true mixte" definition, except
>> >>
>> the
>> >>
>> >> implicit support of "Sheldon says so."
>> >> For the most part, that's enough for me, but does anyone have a French
>> >>
>> >> source to differentiate solid-tubed step-through frames as being not a
>> >>
>> >> "mixte?" I always wondered if it was a sly way to gauge his own
>> influence
>> >>
>> >> on the internet, and see how far an unsupported assertion can go, and
>> >> where
>> >> it might pop up in a Google search.
>> >>
>> >> Philip (long have I wondered this)
>> >> www.biketinker.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 9:16:29 AM UTC-8, Tim Gavin wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I've noticed that kink as well.  I also prefer the look of a single
>> >>> diagonal line; that's why the diagatube Bombadil and Appaloosa look so
>> >>>
>> >>> good.
>> >>>
>> >>> According to Sheldon Brown et al, in a true "mixte" frame the diagonal
>> >>>
>> >>> element is actually two stays from rear dropout to head tube.  Has Riv
>> >>>
>> >>> ever
>> >>> considered doing a true mixte?
>> >>>
>> >>> http://sheldonbrown.com/images/mixte-supercourse.jpg
>> >>>
>> >>> Although, I'd bet that suitable tubing would be a custom order, as the
>> >>>
>> >>> mixte diagatubes are usually seat stay diameter but quite long.
>> >>>
>> >>> Tim
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Andrew Letton 
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>>  Maybe it has to do with the angles of available lugs?
>>  cheers,
>>  Andrew
>>  (Painstakingly pecked out on my iPhone; please pardon my brevity and
>> 
>>  tpyos.)
>> 
>>  On Jan 8, 2014, at 8:27, BSWP  wrote:
>> 
>>  There's a picture of a 60cm Betty Foy on Riv's blug, and it's the
>> first
>> 
>>  I remember seeing where the top/diaga-tube looks to meet its rear
>>  counterparts in a clean straight line. On others, and I guess smaller
>> 
>>  sized
>>  frames, the top tube meets the rear tubes with a slight kink. Again,
>> 
>> I
>>  must
>>  not have paid attention to other images, or to the frames in person.
>> 
>> But
>> 
>>  why the difference? Is it to keep the step-through height of the top
>> 
>>  tube
>>  identical across frame sizes? It's no doubt identical in rigidity and
>> 
>>  stoutness, but quite different in appearance, one size to another. I
>> 
>>  like
>>  the look of a single line from top of head tube to rear axle.
>> 
>>  - Andrew, Berkeley
>> 
>>  --
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>>  Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Bill Lindsay 
Fo-Sheezy, Joe Breezy

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 4:21:50 PM UTC-8, jbu...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> ceci n'est pas une Bombadil: 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/joe_bunik/4494454218/ 
>
> On 1/8/14, Bill Lindsay > wrote: 
> > Quote from Sheldon (AASHTA): 
> > 
> > According to Sheldon, a mixte is: 
> > 
> > "A style of lady's  
> frame 
> > in which the "top tube 
> > " 
> > consists of a pair of small diameter tubes running more-or-less straight 
> > from the upper head lug , 
> > past the seat tube , 
>
> > and on to the rear fork 
> > ends. 
> > A mixte frame thus has 3 sets of rear stays, instead of the usual two. 
> *A 
> > variant on the mixte uses a single, full sized top tube running from the 
> > upper head tube to the seat tube, but retains the middle set of stays*. 
> A 
> > lady's type bike that lacks the middle pair of stays is not a mixte." 
> > 
> > 
> > In other words, Sheldon defines a Rivendell as a variant of a mixte. 
>  The 
> > third set of stays is the critical part that supports the seat tube and 
> > makes it a mixte.  A Rivendell has the middle set of stays, and happens 
> to 
> > have a full size top tube.  Anybody who says a Rivendell is not a mixte 
> and 
> > 
> > uses Sheldon to defend their position, does not understand Sheldon's 
> > definition. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 3:56:30 PM UTC-8, Philip Williamson wrote: 
> >> 
> >> Sheldon does not appear to support his "true mixte" definition, except 
> the 
> >> 
> >> implicit support of "Sheldon says so." 
> >> For the most part, that's enough for me, but does anyone have a French 
> >> source to differentiate solid-tubed step-through frames as being not a 
> >> "mixte?" I always wondered if it was a sly way to gauge his own 
> influence 
> >> 
> >> on the internet, and see how far an unsupported assertion can go, and 
> >> where 
> >> it might pop up in a Google search. 
> >> 
> >> Philip (long have I wondered this) 
> >> www.biketinker.com 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 9:16:29 AM UTC-8, Tim Gavin wrote: 
> >>> 
> >>> I've noticed that kink as well.  I also prefer the look of a single 
> >>> diagonal line; that's why the diagatube Bombadil and Appaloosa look so 
> >>> good. 
> >>> 
> >>> According to Sheldon Brown et al, in a true "mixte" frame the diagonal 
> >>> element is actually two stays from rear dropout to head tube.  Has Riv 
> >>> ever 
> >>> considered doing a true mixte? 
> >>> 
> >>> http://sheldonbrown.com/images/mixte-supercourse.jpg 
> >>> 
> >>> Although, I'd bet that suitable tubing would be a custom order, as the 
> >>> mixte diagatubes are usually seat stay diameter but quite long. 
> >>> 
> >>> Tim 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Andrew Letton  
> wrote: 
> >>> 
>  Maybe it has to do with the angles of available lugs? 
>  cheers, 
>  Andrew 
>  (Painstakingly pecked out on my iPhone; please pardon my brevity and 
>  tpyos.) 
>  
>  On Jan 8, 2014, at 8:27, BSWP  wrote: 
>  
>  There's a picture of a 60cm Betty Foy on Riv's blug, and it's the 
> first 
>  
>  I remember seeing where the top/diaga-tube looks to meet its rear 
>  counterparts in a clean straight line. On others, and I guess smaller 
>  sized 
>  frames, the top tube meets the rear tubes with a slight kink. Again, 
> I 
>  must 
>  not have paid attention to other images, or to the frames in person. 
> But 
>  
>  why the difference? Is it to keep the step-through height of the top 
>  tube 
>  identical across frame sizes? It's no doubt identical in rigidity and 
>  stoutness, but quite different in appearance, one size to another. I 
>  like 
>  the look of a single line from top of head tube to rear axle. 
>  
>  - Andrew, Berkeley 
>  
>  -- 
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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Joe Bunik 
ceci n'est pas une Bombadil:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joe_bunik/4494454218/

On 1/8/14, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
> Quote from Sheldon (AASHTA):
>
> According to Sheldon, a mixte is:
>
> "A style of lady's  frame
> in which the "top tube
> "
> consists of a pair of small diameter tubes running more-or-less straight
> from the upper head lug ,
> past the seat tube ,
> and on to the rear fork
> ends.
> A mixte frame thus has 3 sets of rear stays, instead of the usual two. *A
> variant on the mixte uses a single, full sized top tube running from the
> upper head tube to the seat tube, but retains the middle set of stays*. A
> lady's type bike that lacks the middle pair of stays is not a mixte."
>
>
> In other words, Sheldon defines a Rivendell as a variant of a mixte.  The
> third set of stays is the critical part that supports the seat tube and
> makes it a mixte.  A Rivendell has the middle set of stays, and happens to
> have a full size top tube.  Anybody who says a Rivendell is not a mixte and
>
> uses Sheldon to defend their position, does not understand Sheldon's
> definition.
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 3:56:30 PM UTC-8, Philip Williamson wrote:
>>
>> Sheldon does not appear to support his "true mixte" definition, except the
>>
>> implicit support of "Sheldon says so."
>> For the most part, that's enough for me, but does anyone have a French
>> source to differentiate solid-tubed step-through frames as being not a
>> "mixte?" I always wondered if it was a sly way to gauge his own influence
>>
>> on the internet, and see how far an unsupported assertion can go, and
>> where
>> it might pop up in a Google search.
>>
>> Philip (long have I wondered this)
>> www.biketinker.com
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 9:16:29 AM UTC-8, Tim Gavin wrote:
>>>
>>> I've noticed that kink as well.  I also prefer the look of a single
>>> diagonal line; that's why the diagatube Bombadil and Appaloosa look so
>>> good.
>>>
>>> According to Sheldon Brown et al, in a true "mixte" frame the diagonal
>>> element is actually two stays from rear dropout to head tube.  Has Riv
>>> ever
>>> considered doing a true mixte?
>>>
>>> http://sheldonbrown.com/images/mixte-supercourse.jpg
>>>
>>> Although, I'd bet that suitable tubing would be a custom order, as the
>>> mixte diagatubes are usually seat stay diameter but quite long.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Andrew Letton  wrote:
>>>
 Maybe it has to do with the angles of available lugs?
 cheers,
 Andrew
 (Painstakingly pecked out on my iPhone; please pardon my brevity and
 tpyos.)

 On Jan 8, 2014, at 8:27, BSWP  wrote:

 There's a picture of a 60cm Betty Foy on Riv's blug, and it's the first

 I remember seeing where the top/diaga-tube looks to meet its rear
 counterparts in a clean straight line. On others, and I guess smaller
 sized
 frames, the top tube meets the rear tubes with a slight kink. Again, I
 must
 not have paid attention to other images, or to the frames in person. But

 why the difference? Is it to keep the step-through height of the top
 tube
 identical across frame sizes? It's no doubt identical in rigidity and
 stoutness, but quite different in appearance, one size to another. I
 like
 the look of a single line from top of head tube to rear axle.

 - Andrew, Berkeley

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>>>
>>>
>
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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread tarik saleh 
Yeah, the true mixte vs not true mixte thing is just a dumb distinction.
Mixte is not french for "a step through frame with twin laterals". There is
no better name for the style of bike with a top tube hitting mid seat tube,
and it is used interchangeably by most people for a "true twin lateral" vs
"dropped top tube". Other than mixte there is no other good single name for
the step-through dropped-top-tube ladies-bike girls-bike mamachari style
bike.  This is the realm of pedants. "Realm of Pedants", of course, is
pretty much synonymous with the internet.  I think you will find in real
life that Mixte is used more often than any other term other than he poor
descriptives girls-bike or ladies-bike.

Later

Tarik



On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Philip Williamson <
philip.william...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sheldon does not appear to support his "true mixte" definition, except the
> implicit support of "Sheldon says so."
> For the most part, that's enough for me, but does anyone have a French
> source to differentiate solid-tubed step-through frames as being not a
> "mixte?" I always wondered if it was a sly way to gauge his own influence
> on the internet, and see how far an unsupported assertion can go, and where
> it might pop up in a Google search.
>
> Philip (long have I wondered this)
> www.biketinker.com
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 9:16:29 AM UTC-8, Tim Gavin wrote:
>
>> I've noticed that kink as well.  I also prefer the look of a single
>> diagonal line; that's why the diagatube Bombadil and Appaloosa look so
>> good.
>>
>> According to Sheldon Brown et al, in a true "mixte" frame the diagonal
>> element is actually two stays from rear dropout to head tube.  Has Riv ever
>> considered doing a true mixte?
>>
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/images/mixte-supercourse.jpg
>>
>> Although, I'd bet that suitable tubing would be a custom order, as the
>> mixte diagatubes are usually seat stay diameter but quite long.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Andrew Letton  wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe it has to do with the angles of available lugs?
>>> cheers,
>>> Andrew
>>> (Painstakingly pecked out on my iPhone; please pardon my brevity and
>>> tpyos.)
>>>
>>> On Jan 8, 2014, at 8:27, BSWP  wrote:
>>>
>>> There's a picture of a 60cm Betty Foy on Riv's blug, and it's the first
>>> I remember seeing where the top/diaga-tube looks to meet its rear
>>> counterparts in a clean straight line. On others, and I guess smaller sized
>>> frames, the top tube meets the rear tubes with a slight kink. Again, I must
>>> not have paid attention to other images, or to the frames in person. But
>>> why the difference? Is it to keep the step-through height of the top tube
>>> identical across frame sizes? It's no doubt identical in rigidity and
>>> stoutness, but quite different in appearance, one size to another. I like
>>> the look of a single line from top of head tube to rear axle.
>>>
>>> - Andrew, Berkeley
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Bill Lindsay 
Quote from Sheldon (AASHTA):

According to Sheldon, a mixte is:

"A style of lady's  frame 
in which the "top tube " 
consists of a pair of small diameter tubes running more-or-less straight 
from the upper head lug , 
past the seat tube , 
and on to the rear fork 
ends. 
A mixte frame thus has 3 sets of rear stays, instead of the usual two. *A 
variant on the mixte uses a single, full sized top tube running from the 
upper head tube to the seat tube, but retains the middle set of stays*. A 
lady's type bike that lacks the middle pair of stays is not a mixte."


In other words, Sheldon defines a Rivendell as a variant of a mixte.  The 
third set of stays is the critical part that supports the seat tube and 
makes it a mixte.  A Rivendell has the middle set of stays, and happens to 
have a full size top tube.  Anybody who says a Rivendell is not a mixte and 
uses Sheldon to defend their position, does not understand Sheldon's 
definition.  




On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 3:56:30 PM UTC-8, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> Sheldon does not appear to support his "true mixte" definition, except the 
> implicit support of "Sheldon says so." 
> For the most part, that's enough for me, but does anyone have a French 
> source to differentiate solid-tubed step-through frames as being not a 
> "mixte?" I always wondered if it was a sly way to gauge his own influence 
> on the internet, and see how far an unsupported assertion can go, and where 
> it might pop up in a Google search. 
>
> Philip (long have I wondered this)
> www.biketinker.com
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 9:16:29 AM UTC-8, Tim Gavin wrote:
>>
>> I've noticed that kink as well.  I also prefer the look of a single 
>> diagonal line; that's why the diagatube Bombadil and Appaloosa look so 
>> good.  
>>
>> According to Sheldon Brown et al, in a true "mixte" frame the diagonal 
>> element is actually two stays from rear dropout to head tube.  Has Riv ever 
>> considered doing a true mixte?
>>   
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/images/mixte-supercourse.jpg
>>
>> Although, I'd bet that suitable tubing would be a custom order, as the 
>> mixte diagatubes are usually seat stay diameter but quite long.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Andrew Letton  wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe it has to do with the angles of available lugs?
>>> cheers,
>>> Andrew
>>> (Painstakingly pecked out on my iPhone; please pardon my brevity and 
>>> tpyos.)
>>>
>>> On Jan 8, 2014, at 8:27, BSWP  wrote:
>>>
>>> There's a picture of a 60cm Betty Foy on Riv's blug, and it's the first 
>>> I remember seeing where the top/diaga-tube looks to meet its rear 
>>> counterparts in a clean straight line. On others, and I guess smaller sized 
>>> frames, the top tube meets the rear tubes with a slight kink. Again, I must 
>>> not have paid attention to other images, or to the frames in person. But 
>>> why the difference? Is it to keep the step-through height of the top tube 
>>> identical across frame sizes? It's no doubt identical in rigidity and 
>>> stoutness, but quite different in appearance, one size to another. I like 
>>> the look of a single line from top of head tube to rear axle.
>>>
>>> - Andrew, Berkeley
>>>
>>> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Philip Williamson 
Sheldon does not appear to support his "true mixte" definition, except the 
implicit support of "Sheldon says so." 
For the most part, that's enough for me, but does anyone have a French 
source to differentiate solid-tubed step-through frames as being not a 
"mixte?" I always wondered if it was a sly way to gauge his own influence 
on the internet, and see how far an unsupported assertion can go, and where 
it might pop up in a Google search. 

Philip (long have I wondered this)
www.biketinker.com


On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 9:16:29 AM UTC-8, Tim Gavin wrote:
>
> I've noticed that kink as well.  I also prefer the look of a single 
> diagonal line; that's why the diagatube Bombadil and Appaloosa look so 
> good.  
>
> According to Sheldon Brown et al, in a true "mixte" frame the diagonal 
> element is actually two stays from rear dropout to head tube.  Has Riv ever 
> considered doing a true mixte?
>   
> http://sheldonbrown.com/images/mixte-supercourse.jpg
>
> Although, I'd bet that suitable tubing would be a custom order, as the 
> mixte diagatubes are usually seat stay diameter but quite long.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Andrew Letton 
> > wrote:
>
>> Maybe it has to do with the angles of available lugs?
>> cheers,
>> Andrew
>> (Painstakingly pecked out on my iPhone; please pardon my brevity and 
>> tpyos.)
>>
>> On Jan 8, 2014, at 8:27, BSWP > wrote:
>>
>> There's a picture of a 60cm Betty Foy on Riv's blug, and it's the first I 
>> remember seeing where the top/diaga-tube looks to meet its rear 
>> counterparts in a clean straight line. On others, and I guess smaller sized 
>> frames, the top tube meets the rear tubes with a slight kink. Again, I must 
>> not have paid attention to other images, or to the frames in person. But 
>> why the difference? Is it to keep the step-through height of the top tube 
>> identical across frame sizes? It's no doubt identical in rigidity and 
>> stoutness, but quite different in appearance, one size to another. I like 
>> the look of a single line from top of head tube to rear axle.
>>
>> - Andrew, Berkeley
>>
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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Bill Lindsay 
Leslie

I thought the same thing, but when I went back in the BLUG, that special 
lug you are referring to is a seat lug, with the seatpost clamp and 
everything.  Two different lugs. 

Here's the famous one:




or maybe you are talking about a different special one than I was thinking 
of.  At any rate, the middle Cheviot lug looks the same as the one on 
recent Betty Foys.


On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 12:17:31 PM UTC-8, Leslie wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 12:46:28 PM UTC-5, Shoji Takahashi wrote:
>>
>> For fabricating a "true mixte", the limitation is the lug-- Riv would 
>> have to use a different headlug and seat lug () or perhaps do a filet 
>> braze to the headtube? I think Liesl mentioned that her custom Appaloosa 
>> will have a diagatube of this sort. (As the frame is too small to have a 
>> Riv-normal diagatube.)
>>
>
>
> I noticed the lug on the Cheviot (this one: 
> http://25.media.tumblr.com/122d0d1e21f583da20777428d264d501/tumblr_myubi5Hecp1qe3ngpo6_400.jpg)
>  
> is the same as one that was mentioned in a blug awhile back; as I was 
> awaiting my Bombadil at the time and knew they had a new lug coming for 
> it,  when I saw that lug in the blug, I'd asked about it, if it was going 
> to be on the diaga-Bomba...   Grant said nope, that the Bomba had a LOT 
> more clearance needed, and that lug wouldn't do for it, that he might 
> eventually design a new lug for it, but that if the angles didn't come out 
> just right, that such could end up being an expensive problem;  that's why 
> they were passed through Mark Nobilette's for adding on the curvastays on 
> the Bombadils...
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Leslie 
On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 12:46:28 PM UTC-5, Shoji Takahashi wrote:
>
> For fabricating a "true mixte", the limitation is the lug-- Riv would have 
> to use a different headlug and seat lug () or perhaps do a filet braze 
> to the headtube? I think Liesl mentioned that her custom Appaloosa will 
> have a diagatube of this sort. (As the frame is too small to have a 
> Riv-normal diagatube.)
>


I noticed the lug on the Cheviot (this one: 
http://25.media.tumblr.com/122d0d1e21f583da20777428d264d501/tumblr_myubi5Hecp1qe3ngpo6_400.jpg)
 
is the same as one that was mentioned in a blug awhile back; as I was 
awaiting my Bombadil at the time and knew they had a new lug coming for 
it,  when I saw that lug in the blug, I'd asked about it, if it was going 
to be on the diaga-Bomba...   Grant said nope, that the Bomba had a LOT 
more clearance needed, and that lug wouldn't do for it, that he might 
eventually design a new lug for it, but that if the angles didn't come out 
just right, that such could end up being an expensive problem;  that's why 
they were passed through Mark Nobilette's for adding on the curvastays on 
the Bombadils...


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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread EGNolan 

>
> It definitely looks as though they use the same lugs (for cost savings I 
> assume), which just means the tubes, because of varying lengths, though at 
> similar angles, meet at different points.
>

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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Dan McNamara 
Yah, the 55 Cheviot shares the kink. At least it looks that way from the
posted pics. I have gotten used to look as I have to see the 50 Betty in
the garage every day. But I do prefer the straight line.

Dan

-Marin


On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Shoji Takahashi
wrote:

> The 55cm demo (congrats on getting it, Michael!) has the no-kink geometry,
> compared to the 50cm demo (kinky). I used to think the kink detracted from
> the look... but my mind's now used to the look, and the 55cm no-kink looks
> to be the outlier!
>
> I also think large frames w/o TT or diagatubes look strange now. Maybe if
> I look at MCRB long enough, they'll look fine, too?
>
> For fabricating a "true mixte", the limitation is the lug-- Riv would have
> to use a different headlug and seat lug () or perhaps do a filet braze
> to the headtube? I think Liesl mentioned that her custom Appaloosa will
> have a diagatube of this sort. (As the frame is too small to have a
> Riv-normal diagatube.)
>
> Shoji
>
> On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 12:16:29 PM UTC-5, Tim Gavin wrote:
>
>> I've noticed that kink as well.  I also prefer the look of a single
>> diagonal line; that's why the diagatube Bombadil and Appaloosa look so
>> good.
>>
>> According to Sheldon Brown et al, in a true "mixte" frame the diagonal
>> element is actually two stays from rear dropout to head tube.  Has Riv ever
>> considered doing a true mixte?
>>
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/images/mixte-supercourse.jpg
>>
>> Although, I'd bet that suitable tubing would be a custom order, as the
>> mixte diagatubes are usually seat stay diameter but quite long.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Andrew Letton  wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe it has to do with the angles of available lugs?
>>> cheers,
>>> Andrew
>>> (Painstakingly pecked out on my iPhone; please pardon my brevity and
>>> tpyos.)
>>>
>>> On Jan 8, 2014, at 8:27, BSWP  wrote:
>>>
>>> There's a picture of a 60cm Betty Foy on Riv's blug, and it's the first
>>> I remember seeing where the top/diaga-tube looks to meet its rear
>>> counterparts in a clean straight line. On others, and I guess smaller sized
>>> frames, the top tube meets the rear tubes with a slight kink. Again, I must
>>> not have paid attention to other images, or to the frames in person. But
>>> why the difference? Is it to keep the step-through height of the top tube
>>> identical across frame sizes? It's no doubt identical in rigidity and
>>> stoutness, but quite different in appearance, one size to another. I like
>>> the look of a single line from top of head tube to rear axle.
>>>
>>> - Andrew, Berkeley
>>>
>>> --
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>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Shoji Takahashi 
The 55cm demo (congrats on getting it, Michael!) has the no-kink geometry, 
compared to the 50cm demo (kinky). I used to think the kink detracted from 
the look... but my mind's now used to the look, and the 55cm no-kink looks 
to be the outlier! 

I also think large frames w/o TT or diagatubes look strange now. Maybe if I 
look at MCRB long enough, they'll look fine, too? 

For fabricating a "true mixte", the limitation is the lug-- Riv would have 
to use a different headlug and seat lug () or perhaps do a filet braze 
to the headtube? I think Liesl mentioned that her custom Appaloosa will 
have a diagatube of this sort. (As the frame is too small to have a 
Riv-normal diagatube.)

Shoji 

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 12:16:29 PM UTC-5, Tim Gavin wrote:
>
> I've noticed that kink as well.  I also prefer the look of a single 
> diagonal line; that's why the diagatube Bombadil and Appaloosa look so 
> good.  
>
> According to Sheldon Brown et al, in a true "mixte" frame the diagonal 
> element is actually two stays from rear dropout to head tube.  Has Riv ever 
> considered doing a true mixte?
>   
> http://sheldonbrown.com/images/mixte-supercourse.jpg
>
> Although, I'd bet that suitable tubing would be a custom order, as the 
> mixte diagatubes are usually seat stay diameter but quite long.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Andrew Letton 
> > wrote:
>
>> Maybe it has to do with the angles of available lugs?
>> cheers,
>> Andrew
>> (Painstakingly pecked out on my iPhone; please pardon my brevity and 
>> tpyos.)
>>
>> On Jan 8, 2014, at 8:27, BSWP > wrote:
>>
>> There's a picture of a 60cm Betty Foy on Riv's blug, and it's the first I 
>> remember seeing where the top/diaga-tube looks to meet its rear 
>> counterparts in a clean straight line. On others, and I guess smaller sized 
>> frames, the top tube meets the rear tubes with a slight kink. Again, I must 
>> not have paid attention to other images, or to the frames in person. But 
>> why the difference? Is it to keep the step-through height of the top tube 
>> identical across frame sizes? It's no doubt identical in rigidity and 
>> stoutness, but quite different in appearance, one size to another. I like 
>> the look of a single line from top of head tube to rear axle.
>>
>> - Andrew, Berkeley
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Tim Gavin 
I've noticed that kink as well.  I also prefer the look of a single
diagonal line; that's why the diagatube Bombadil and Appaloosa look so
good.

According to Sheldon Brown et al, in a true "mixte" frame the diagonal
element is actually two stays from rear dropout to head tube.  Has Riv ever
considered doing a true mixte?

http://sheldonbrown.com/images/mixte-supercourse.jpg

Although, I'd bet that suitable tubing would be a custom order, as the
mixte diagatubes are usually seat stay diameter but quite long.

Tim


On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Andrew Letton  wrote:

> Maybe it has to do with the angles of available lugs?
> cheers,
> Andrew
> (Painstakingly pecked out on my iPhone; please pardon my brevity and
> tpyos.)
>
> On Jan 8, 2014, at 8:27, BSWP  wrote:
>
> There's a picture of a 60cm Betty Foy on Riv's blug, and it's the first I
> remember seeing where the top/diaga-tube looks to meet its rear
> counterparts in a clean straight line. On others, and I guess smaller sized
> frames, the top tube meets the rear tubes with a slight kink. Again, I must
> not have paid attention to other images, or to the frames in person. But
> why the difference? Is it to keep the step-through height of the top tube
> identical across frame sizes? It's no doubt identical in rigidity and
> stoutness, but quite different in appearance, one size to another. I like
> the look of a single line from top of head tube to rear axle.
>
> - Andrew, Berkeley
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread Andrew Letton 
Maybe it has to do with the angles of available lugs?
cheers,
Andrew
(Painstakingly pecked out on my iPhone; please pardon my brevity and tpyos.)

On Jan 8, 2014, at 8:27, BSWP  wrote:

> There's a picture of a 60cm Betty Foy on Riv's blug, and it's the first I 
> remember seeing where the top/diaga-tube looks to meet its rear counterparts 
> in a clean straight line. On others, and I guess smaller sized frames, the 
> top tube meets the rear tubes with a slight kink. Again, I must not have paid 
> attention to other images, or to the frames in person. But why the 
> difference? Is it to keep the step-through height of the top tube identical 
> across frame sizes? It's no doubt identical in rigidity and stoutness, but 
> quite different in appearance, one size to another. I like the look of a 
> single line from top of head tube to rear axle.
> 
> - Andrew, Berkeley
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[RBW] Mixte frame design question

2014-01-08 Thread BSWP 
There's a picture of a 60cm Betty Foy on Riv's blug, and it's the first I 
remember seeing where the top/diaga-tube looks to meet its rear 
counterparts in a clean straight line. On others, and I guess smaller sized 
frames, the top tube meets the rear tubes with a slight kink. Again, I must 
not have paid attention to other images, or to the frames in person. But 
why the difference? Is it to keep the step-through height of the top tube 
identical across frame sizes? It's no doubt identical in rigidity and 
stoutness, but quite different in appearance, one size to another. I like 
the look of a single line from top of head tube to rear axle.

- Andrew, Berkeley

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