Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 22. Mai 2019 um 13:12 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> How can i select the entrance on OSRM/openstreetmap website, MAPS.ME,
>
> OsmAND the entrance? You cant.
>
> Why would you want to manually select entrance?
>


because you might want to in order to state where you want to go? Usually
people do this via addresses. Imagine a huge shopping mall, or a different
huge structure with several entrances (train station, theme park, nature
reserve, ...). For a shopping mall, you may want to go just to one store,
so the parking should be close (for pedestrians, not as the crow flies) to
this store, for example.

>
> And when navigating by car to
> a mall i dont want the entrance - i want the Car park. Can i select
> that from a drop down when selecting a Mall to navigate to?
>
> It should be automatically preferred for car routing.
>


this is more complex than just the closest parking, your intentions may
have an impact on the kind of car park, e.g. if you go to the airport to
drop your friend off, you will typically want to drive in front of the
entrance, but if you are flying yourself and come by car, you will park on
a parking farer away from the entrances (long term parking), and if you are
going to pick someone up, you will go to the car park for short term
parking. (I wrote "airport", but it is the same situation with different
terminals on bigger airports).




And dont troll me with "add a footway" - A footway is not in the
routable graph for cars and will not even be in the database when
looking for the nearest point.

Router can use footway data to select good dropoff point.
And other info like parkings.


+1, just because something is not "naturally" in the routing graph does not
mean, the information could not be used during the preprocessing to create
navaid points. We must not necessarily provide the information explicitly,
if it could be computed from inherent information.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22. May 2019, at 12:49, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> 
> You need to have a way to EXPLICITLY define a location
> where to navigate to.


this is “entrance”/barrier=gate, or not?

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22. May 2019, at 12:42, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> If navigation is simply doing nearest road point on matching then it requires 
> change to both
> - properly use footway data
> - use your proposed relation
> 
> I see no reason for preferring second solution.


check the Rome Fiumicino airport, Nominatim uses a cycleway to describe the 
address and routes kilometers away from the entrances:
https://github.com/openstreetmap/Nominatim/issues/1389

maps.me for example routes to the entrances (not sure how they do it, whether 
they use external data as well or use a different mechanism to reduce the area 
to a point for navigation)

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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[marc marc]

Le 22.05.19 à 12:06, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
>> you mean https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/273023376 ?
>> it's a good example of missing datas.
>> no entrance, no way between the entrance and the public network.
>> I feel that the relation type=navaids should be called type=missingway
> 
> Again a footway between the house and a road will NOT help for
> car navigation because for cars a footway is NOT a routable
> part of the graph.

again multimodal app DO it (for e.g. switch footway with 
access=destination in a BRouter car profile, you may also add a weight
despite i didn't known how to add a big weight for missing way)

when datas are available, an application can choose to prefer the most 
complete routing to reatch a entrance even if a part is done by foot 
compared to a closer routing by car but for witch the routing till the 
destination is unknown and can therefore cross a barrier or anything 
that invalidates the routing.
it's a matter of weight between the footway and the "no-way" and/or a 
test to avoid a routing between the last routed-by-car node and the 
destination through a barrier

so first :
- add missing datas that have already an osm tag
- have an app that use those datas
MAYBE AFTER that some additional datas are needed,
but without using currently usable infos, our exemple
get the reply "use eisting datas"
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Colin Smale]

Navigation software needs to move on. Instead of mapping a destination
POI to a single point in every case, it needs to handle a list of
points. Each point may have filters or qualifiers, such as opening hours
or mode of transport; this can lead to some of the points being
disqualified. The routing needs to calculate a route to each remaining
point and choose the best one using the routing criteria (shortest,
fastest etc). The multiple route calculations don't always need to
restart from the departure point - I'm sure a heuristic to limit the
recalculation to the last X km would be fine in most cases. 

Then in the OSM data we need a way of indicating that multiple points
are initially equivalent, serving the same POI. For example, multiple
car parks serving the same public park. This can be purely geometric, by
virtue of the car parks being enclosed by the parks outer perimeter, or
by some kind of association relation. Reducing a car park polygon to a
candidate point for the above multiple-routing case can be based on a
node with entrance=* or the intersection with an accessible highway.
Where a car park has multiple entrances, add them all into the candidate
point list as above. 

Regarding the use of footways for vehicle navigation, there are plenty
of multimodal public transport planners out there, which know about
trains, buses, walking etc. They work much more from point to point, not
limited to just the vehicle segment of the journey. A car
router/navigator can do the same, can't it? It will of course rely on
the data it is given 

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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

22 May 2019, 13:03 by f...@zz.de:

> On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 12:55:44PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
>> > - Baumstraße 43a, Gütersloh, Germany
>> >  It does not have a connection to Baumstraße but to
>> >  Hermann-Vogelsang-Straße.
>> >
>> >  It still will be routed through Baumstraße and the driveway to
>> >  Baumstraße 45a
>> >
>> >  IMHO unfixable without bending geometry 
>> >
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/273023376 
>>  has no mapped entrance, 
>> footway access, driveway. Fences are also unmapped.
>>
>
> Footway -> not for car 
> fences -> not in graph for navigation - not connected to graph-> purely
> cosmetic object.
>
It is possible for routers to use fence/footway data to select good dropoff 
location.

I am not claiming that there are routers doing this now, but it is possible to 
do
and better solution that manual routing with relations.
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

22 May 2019, 13:00 by f...@zz.de:

>
> Hi
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 12:42:45PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
>> 22 May 2019, 09:53 by f...@zz.de:
>> > Hi Marc,
>> > On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:38:23PM +, marc marc wrote:
>> >> > What is the expectation to get navigated to when selecting a park?
>> >> there is no such thing as "a single point that makes everyone agree"
>> > Yes there is - there has to be an explicit location you will ne navigated
>> > to for a certain feature. 
>> >
>> This is blatantly untrue. Depending on location you will prefer to be routed
>> to different entrances and it is not considering different modes of 
>> transport.
>>
>
> How can i select the entrance on OSRM/openstreetmap website, MAPS.ME,
> OsmAND the entrance? You cant. 
>
Why would you want to manually select entrance?

See for example router selecting appropriate entrance based on location:

http://brouter.de/brouter-web/#map=16/50.0645/19.9179/standard=19.916883,50.065609;19.917483,50.062799=shortest
 


http://brouter.de/brouter-web/#map=16/50.0645/19.9179/standard=19.918041,50.059245;19.917483,50.062799=shortest

> And when navigating by car to
> a mall i dont want the entrance - i want the Car park. Can i select
> that from a drop down when selecting a Mall to navigate to?
>
It should be automatically preferred for car routing. I admit that I have no 
router to
recommend, as I am not using car. But have you tried requesting improvements
for your navigation (assuming that it has a a public bug tracker and it was not
requested already)?

> Mapping OSM Objects to navigational locations is implicit right now and
> depends on the algorithm used to find the nearest location on the
> routable network for the specified mode of transportation. So i bet
> i can generate a situation where OSMAnd, OSRM and MAPS.ME will bring
> you to different spots more than 5km apart. 
>
What is wrong with that?

> And dont troll me with "add a footway" - A footway is not in the
> routable graph for cars and will not even be in the database when
> looking for the nearest point.
>
Router can use footway data to select good dropoff point. 
And other info like parkings.

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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Florian Lohoff]

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 01:01:20PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> 
> 22 May 2019, 12:49 by f...@zz.de:
> 
> > On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 12:37:21PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> >
> >> > Again a footway between the house and a road will NOT help for
> >> > car navigation because for cars a footway is NOT a routable 
> >> > part of the graph.
> >> >
> >> Car navigation may use footway data to select best dropoff point.
> >>
> >> In exactly the same way as you proposed with navaid relation,
> >> but without adding subjective data.
> >>
> >
> > Look at my school example - would still be broken. Yes - there is a
> > footway - but not the original parking lot for the school.
> >
> > Different street. ~1km detour. No parking at the selected spot - Private
> > property.
> >
> > You are trying to fix an algorithm with new assumptions which break in
> > other aspects. You need to have a way to EXPLICITLY define a location
> > where to navigate to. 
> >
> I noticed no link to that case, but here routers should direct car to mapped
> parking within school area (it is a public parking, right?).

Search for it - When i add a link i add a specific location - I did this
intentionally - Because with the search you map object -> specific
location and then you can query OSRM again for routing.

It is the official parking lot for the school. Its vis a vis to the 
entrance.

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Florian Lohoff]

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 12:55:44PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > - Baumstraße 43a, Gütersloh, Germany
> >  It does not have a connection to Baumstraße but to
> >  Hermann-Vogelsang-Straße.
> >
> >  It still will be routed through Baumstraße and the driveway to
> >  Baumstraße 45a
> >
> >  IMHO unfixable without bending geometry 
> >
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/273023376 
>  has no mapped entrance, 
> footway access, driveway. Fences are also unmapped.

Footway -> not for car 
fences -> not in graph for navigation - not connected to graph-> purely
cosmetic object.

43a has no footway/driveway. The carport is directly at the side of the
road.

> I am not sure whatever we have smart routers, but here even human would fail
> due to lack of data.
> 
> I added driveway based on aerial image but it is unlikely to be enough.

Where is it ? 43a does not have a driveway.

> > - Dalbker Straße 40a, Oerlinghausen, Germany 
> >  Dalbker Straße 44a, Oerlinghausen, Germany 
> >
> Fences/hedges/whatever barrier is there is missing though
> really smart router (that is using footway at start and the end)
> would work correctly here.
> 
> Have you checked whatever this improvement is suggested for routers with 
> public
> bug trackers?

Okay - first you tell me - its solvable - then you tell me data is
missing, now you tell me the software is broken.

And there is a footway - its directly in front of the door. Still - you
will get routed to a differen street. The footway is NOT in the graph
for cars. 

All objects you put into this argument do not have any influence on any
routing app/software mentioned in this thread before.

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

22 May 2019, 12:49 by f...@zz.de:

> On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 12:37:21PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
>> > Again a footway between the house and a road will NOT help for
>> > car navigation because for cars a footway is NOT a routable 
>> > part of the graph.
>> >
>> Car navigation may use footway data to select best dropoff point.
>>
>> In exactly the same way as you proposed with navaid relation,
>> but without adding subjective data.
>>
>
> Look at my school example - would still be broken. Yes - there is a
> footway - but not the original parking lot for the school.
>
> Different street. ~1km detour. No parking at the selected spot - Private
> property.
>
> You are trying to fix an algorithm with new assumptions which break in
> other aspects. You need to have a way to EXPLICITLY define a location
> where to navigate to. 
>
I noticed no link to that case, but here routers should direct car to mapped
parking within school area (it is a public parking, right?).
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 12:42:45PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> 22 May 2019, 09:53 by f...@zz.de:
> > Hi Marc,
> > On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:38:23PM +, marc marc wrote:
> >> > What is the expectation to get navigated to when selecting a park?
> >> there is no such thing as "a single point that makes everyone agree"
> > Yes there is - there has to be an explicit location you will ne navigated
> > to for a certain feature. 
> >
> This is blatantly untrue. Depending on location you will prefer to be routed
> to different entrances and it is not considering different modes of transport.

How can i select the entrance on OSRM/openstreetmap website, MAPS.ME,
OsmAND the entrance? You cant. 

And where is an entrance to a Golf Course? And when navigating by car to
a mall i dont want the entrance - i want the Car park. Can i select
that from a drop down when selecting a Mall to navigate to?

Mapping OSM Objects to navigational locations is implicit right now and
depends on the algorithm used to find the nearest location on the
routable network for the specified mode of transportation. So i bet
i can generate a situation where OSMAnd, OSRM and MAPS.ME will bring
you to different spots more than 5km apart. Its just a matter of
constructing the right geometries with the tags one or the other
navigational preprocessing takes into account. You cant specify
the right location explicitly - so you need to rely on implicit geometry
processing by algorithms. And then you still have 2-3% of broken
destinations.

> > Nope - there isnt enough information. Its all just implicit and works
> > for 95% of the cases. It breaks horrible in others and we fake
> > geometries to fix it, blame the application, invent tags to guide the
> > nav/routing which only fit half of the object and only half of the
> > apps support. In all cases the user is in trouble.
> >
> Please give a specific example.

See my School example. Its a pretty nice fuck up. You get "near" the
School but in a oneway maze 1km away from the parking lot. And yes -
there is a footway. Everything is mapped as it is. Still - breaks.

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-May/045416.html
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-May/045423.html

And dont troll me with "add a footway" - A footway is not in the
routable graph for cars and will not even be in the database when
looking for the nearest point.

> If navigation is simply doing nearest road point on matching then it requires 
> change to both
> - properly use footway data
> - use your proposed relation

footway != car

And it wont solve the issue. See the school example. There is a footway
and it will prefer the location it does not most likely. Still broken.

nearest road point will only be on roads for THAT mode of
transportation.

> I see no reason for preferring second solution.

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

22 May 2019, 09:43 by f...@zz.de:

>
> Hola Mateusz,
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 12:26:01AM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
>> 21 May 2019, 23:46 by f...@zz.de:
>>
>> > - Houses which are routeable by road a but are near road b or vice
>> >  versa.
>> >
>> > Adding more roads aka service/driveway does not necessary make it more
>> > deterministic.
>> >
>> Can you give example of residential building with fully mapped roads, 
>> footways
>> and obstacles where well written router will fail?
>>
>
> - Baumstraße 43a, Gütersloh, Germany
>  It does not have a connection to Baumstraße but to
>  Hermann-Vogelsang-Straße.
>
>  It still will be routed through Baumstraße and the driveway to
>  Baumstraße 45a
>
>  IMHO unfixable without bending geometry 
>
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/273023376 
 has no mapped entrance, 
footway access, driveway. Fences are also unmapped.

I am not sure whatever we have smart routers, but here even human would fail
due to lack of data.

I added driveway based on aerial image but it is unlikely to be enough.

>
> - Dalbker Straße 40a, Oerlinghausen, Germany 
>  Dalbker Straße 44a, Oerlinghausen, Germany 
>
Fences/hedges/whatever barrier is there is missing though
really smart router (that is using footway at start and the end)
would work correctly here.

Have you checked whatever this improvement is suggested for routers with public
bug trackers?

> moving it further to
>  Dalkbker Straße within the outline of the Building.
>
within the outline? In case it is acceptable

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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Florian Lohoff]

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 12:37:21PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > Again a footway between the house and a road will NOT help for
> > car navigation because for cars a footway is NOT a routable 
> > part of the graph.
> >
> Car navigation may use footway data to select best dropoff point.
> 
> In exactly the same way as you proposed with navaid relation,
> but without adding subjective data.

Look at my school example - would still be broken. Yes - there is a
footway - but not the original parking lot for the school.

Different street. ~1km detour. No parking at the selected spot - Private
property.

You are trying to fix an algorithm with new assumptions which break in
other aspects. You need to have a way to EXPLICITLY define a location
where to navigate to. 

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

22 May 2019, 09:53 by f...@zz.de:

>
> Hi Marc,
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:38:23PM +, marc marc wrote:
>
>> > What is the expectation to get navigated to when selecting a park?
>>
>> there is no such thing as "a single point that makes everyone agree"
>>
>
> Yes there is - there has to be an explicit location you will ne navigated
> to for a certain feature. 
>
This is blatantly untrue. Depending on location you will prefer to be routed
to different entrances and it is not considering different modes of transport.

>> > Doesnt work - You are navigating by car but you only have a footway up
>> > to hour house - Still the house is near road b - thus you get navigated
>> > to the wrong street.
>>
>> that's a bug/a feature needed in the routing, all info exist in osm
>> to find the path to reatch to the house, instead of leaving you at
>> a closer location but whose routing to the house is unknown
>>
>
> Nope - there isnt enough information. Its all just implicit and works
> for 95% of the cases. It breaks horrible in others and we fake
> geometries to fix it, blame the application, invent tags to guide the
> nav/routing which only fit half of the object and only half of the
> apps support. In all cases the user is in trouble.
>
Please give a specific example.

> No - i expect to select a feature and when there are multiple entrances
> i expect the Nav to ask me. Currently it doesnt - no application does.
> They simply guide me to some arbitrarily choosen point calculated
> from some geomtry which fits some nearest point matching algorithm. And
> there is NO way to fix this.
>
If navigation is simply doing nearest road point on matching then it requires 
change to both
- properly use footway data
- use your proposed relation

I see no reason for preferring second solution.


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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

22 May 2019, 12:06 by f...@zz.de:

> On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 09:13:14AM +, marc marc wrote:
>
>> Le 22.05.19 à 09:43, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
>> >> Can you give example of residential building with fully mapped roads, 
>> >> footways and obstacles where well written router will fail?
>> > 
>> > - Baumstraße 43a, Gütersloh, Germany
>>
>> you mean https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/273023376 ?
>> it's a good example of missing datas.
>> no entrance, no way between the entrance and the public network.
>> please, there should be an example of a target where the current schema 
>> are not enough, and not an example where the lack of data produce
>> a bad routing
>>
>> right now I feel that the relation type=navaids should be called 
>> type=missingway
>>
>
> Again a footway between the house and a road will NOT help for
> car navigation because for cars a footway is NOT a routable 
> part of the graph.
>
Car navigation may use footway data to select best dropoff point.

In exactly the same way as you proposed with navaid relation,
but without adding subjective data.

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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Florian Lohoff]

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 09:13:14AM +, marc marc wrote:
> Le 22.05.19 à 09:43, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> >> Can you give example of residential building with fully mapped roads, 
> >> footways and obstacles where well written router will fail?
> > 
> > - Baumstraße 43a, Gütersloh, Germany
> 
> you mean https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/273023376 ?
> it's a good example of missing datas.
> no entrance, no way between the entrance and the public network.
> please, there should be an example of a target where the current schema 
> are not enough, and not an example where the lack of data produce
> a bad routing
> 
> right now I feel that the relation type=navaids should be called 
> type=missingway

Again a footway between the house and a road will NOT help for
car navigation because for cars a footway is NOT a routable 
part of the graph.

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[marc marc]

Le 22.05.19 à 09:43, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
>> Can you give example of residential building with fully mapped roads, 
>> footways and obstacles where well written router will fail?
> 
> - Baumstraße 43a, Gütersloh, Germany

you mean https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/273023376 ?
it's a good example of missing datas.
no entrance, no way between the entrance and the public network.
please, there should be an example of a target where the current schema 
are not enough, and not an example where the lack of data produce
a bad routing

right now I feel that the relation type=navaids should be called 
type=missingway
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[marc marc]

Le 22.05.19 à 10:36, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> type navaid
> source  (Multiple ones sharing the same transport 
> destination)
> car
> bicyle 
> foot   

this info, for well mapped objet, already exist
polygon   have several nodes
with entrance=yes and car/bicyle/foot=designated
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi Peter,

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 10:15:57AM +0200, Peter Elderson wrote:
> >  Id imaging a relation which says
> > object A -> car -> Node B (on routable graph)
> > So whenever i tell my nav software to bring me to object A the node
> > selected on the routable graph as a destination will be Node B.
> 
> One relation per mode of transport then? So a complex obejct a could have
> many navaid relations? Or one relation containing all nodes, with roles for
> transport mode?

type navaid
name Foobar (Optional if object does not carry a name or you map
 multiple different location)
source  (Multiple ones sharing the same transport destination)
car
bicyle 
foot   

Just as the rough first version. You want to keep this to a minimum for
cases where an algorithm cant choose the right solution or is making
wrong decisions based on correct geometries.

A mall with parking south and north would get 2 navaid relations

name "Mall foo - North"
name "Mall foo - South"

With their parking lot entries as the nodes to go to by car
and their entrance for foot. Currently you might be lucky
that your Nav Software does a full text search and somebody
named the parking lots with the complete name although
they should only carry a ref=North/South.

So a navigation preprocessor would not try to find a node on the
routable network by algorithm but by hinting in case it finds
this relation.

It currently works by accident and because people tweak
the data to get their result. Either geometries, additional tags
or additional name tags on unrelated objects. 

People start mapping for the router/nav software. A relation like this
could help solve the need of hinting the software without abusing
other tags, tag move, geometry tweaking.

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Florian Lohoff]

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 09:43:31AM +0200, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> > Can you give example of residential building with fully mapped roads, 
> > footways
> > and obstacles where well written router will fail?
> 
> - Baumstraße 43a, Gütersloh, Germany
>   It does not have a connection to Baumstraße but to
>   Hermann-Vogelsang-Straße.
> 
>   It still will be routed through Baumstraße and the driveway to
>   Baumstraße 45a
> 
>   IMHO unfixable without bending geometry 
> 
> - Dalbker Straße 40a, Oerlinghausen, Germany 
>   Dalbker Straße 44a, Oerlinghausen, Germany 
>   Both fixed by moving the Address to a node, moving it further to
>   Dalkbker Straße within the outline of the Building.
> 
>   Otherwise you'd be routed to Buchweizenweg without access to
>   the Building. This is what multiple of my collegues complained
> about.
> 
>   Here i bend geometry until it halfway worked.
> 
> Just 2 examples for the last 10 days or so. And footways wont help
> you in a car profile. You could bring a footway directly connecting
> the entrance to the Street.

And most likely - Try and schools in your area. If its correctly
mapped with the school ground as an amenity=school and buildings
etc.

Try to reach it by car:

Elly-Heuss-Knapp Realschule, Gütersloh

You'll end on the wrong street without parking and a gate although
the school has a parking lot. And you even end up in a oneway hell.

Whenever you try to reach "large" osm objects on the routable network
you are in deep trouble. camp sites, airports, golf courses, schools.
People move the attributes from the polygons to nodes to make it
explicit where to navigate. With polygons its up to the algorithm
to guess the right point.

And i had tons of stuff like this the last decade. 2 Years ago
i ended up on a road at a river (by bike) the campsite on the opposite
side of the river. 5km to next bridge to cross the river because the
road 20m on the other river side was the nearest point on the routable
network. Roads on the campsite were access=private. 

I ended here:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=53.92106=12.10538#map=17/53.92106/12.10538

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Peter Elderson]

>  Id imaging a relation which says
> object A -> car -> Node B (on routable graph)
> So whenever i tell my nav software to bring me to object A the node
> selected on the routable graph as a destination will be Node B.

One relation per mode of transport then? So a complex obejct a could have
many navaid relations? Or one relation containing all nodes, with roles for
transport mode?
Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op wo 22 mei 2019 om 10:02 schreef Florian Lohoff :

> On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 08:31:03AM +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 07:47, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> > > - Houses which are routeable by road a but are near road b or vice
> > >   versa.
> >
> > That could be a "problem" due to GPS (?) system being so accurate?
>
> And map data beeing very accurate. With commercial data sets you'll map
> addresses to street segments. Done.
>
> We aim much higher. We want exact locations of buildings and we expect
> some clever algorithms to match these addresses to roads. Works for
> 90% of the cases. And fails in others.
>
> And then we aim even higher. We want all the corner cases to work.
> Issues as the above - Address on road A - Reachable only via road B but
> near road A. Without hinting there is no way an algorithm will be able
> to determine this.
>
> > For instance, where I am sitting now at the back of my house, various
> GPS /
> > location / navigation systems tell me that I am actually at the address
> > behind us, of That Road, rather than My Street, because I'm about 1m
> closer
> > to that street!
> >
> > If I turn OSMand on & ask it to take me from my present location to my
> > Home, it will tell me to walk or drive around the block!
>
> Its not an GPS issue - Navigation works different - You tell where you
> want to go and it selects a precise and explicit point on the routing
> graph where to take you to. And it'll follow on the graph to that
> location. The mapping of an address to a location on the routeable
> graph is the Problem - not the routing/gps. This is why i called
> it "navaid" not "routingaid".
>
> Id imaging a relation which says
>
> object A -> car -> Node B (on routable graph)
>
> So whenever i tell my nav software to bring me to object A the node
> selected on the routable graph as a destination will be Node B.
>
> Flo
> --
> Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
> UTF-8 Test: The  ran after a , but the  ran away
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Florian Lohoff]

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 08:31:03AM +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 07:47, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> > - Houses which are routeable by road a but are near road b or vice
> >   versa.
> 
> That could be a "problem" due to GPS (?) system being so accurate?

And map data beeing very accurate. With commercial data sets you'll map
addresses to street segments. Done. 

We aim much higher. We want exact locations of buildings and we expect
some clever algorithms to match these addresses to roads. Works for 
90% of the cases. And fails in others.

And then we aim even higher. We want all the corner cases to work.
Issues as the above - Address on road A - Reachable only via road B but
near road A. Without hinting there is no way an algorithm will be able
to determine this.

> For instance, where I am sitting now at the back of my house, various GPS /
> location / navigation systems tell me that I am actually at the address
> behind us, of That Road, rather than My Street, because I'm about 1m closer
> to that street!
> 
> If I turn OSMand on & ask it to take me from my present location to my
> Home, it will tell me to walk or drive around the block!

Its not an GPS issue - Navigation works different - You tell where you
want to go and it selects a precise and explicit point on the routing
graph where to take you to. And it'll follow on the graph to that
location. The mapping of an address to a location on the routeable
graph is the Problem - not the routing/gps. This is why i called
it "navaid" not "routingaid".

Id imaging a relation which says

object A -> car -> Node B (on routable graph)

So whenever i tell my nav software to bring me to object A the node
selected on the routable graph as a destination will be Node B.

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi Marc,

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:38:23PM +, marc marc wrote:
> > What is the expectation to get navigated to when selecting a park?
> 
> there is no such thing as "a single point that makes everyone agree"

Yes there is - there has to be an explicit location you will ne navigated
to for a certain feature. 

It might be that there are multiple - then you might want to choose.
Currently you'll be guided to a random location which fits whatever
nearest point algorithm your router/navigation uses. Non deterministic
from a users perspective.

> take the case of a square park fenced by a fence, surrounded by 4 
> streets each with a pedestrian entrance to the park.
> those arriving from the north will probably want to stop at the street 
> to the north, while those arriving from the south will probably want to 
> stop at the street at the south entrance.

Tell me ONE application that does this. None. All of them map a feature
you select (Address, POI, whatever) - map it to a single precise point
and bring you there.

> > Doesnt work - You are navigating by car but you only have a footway up
> > to hour house - Still the house is near road b - thus you get navigated
> > to the wrong street.
> 
> that's a bug/a feature needed in the routing, all info exist in osm
> to find the path to reatch to the house, instead of leaving you at
> a closer location but whose routing to the house is unknown

Nope - there isnt enough information. Its all just implicit and works
for 95% of the cases. It breaks horrible in others and we fake
geometries to fix it, blame the application, invent tags to guide the
nav/routing which only fit half of the object and only half of the
apps support. In all cases the user is in trouble.

> > Detaching addresses from house geometries putting it near the road 
> > i expect people to be navigated to.
> 
> so UGLY ! You decide, for the example of the park, that everyone
> must use YOUR favorite entrance.

No - i expect to select a feature and when there are multiple entrances
i expect the Nav to ask me. Currently it doesnt - no application does.
They simply guide me to some arbitrarily choosen point calculated
from some geomtry which fits some nearest point matching algorithm. And
there is NO way to fix this.

> it is tagging for your-routing, instead of allowing routing to have 
> personalized options (shortest route, least walking, close to a parking, 
> disabled accessible up to the poi)

No - as i said - its about hinting. We have a low percentage of
nav targets which are not or suboptimally reached with current
alhorithms. Its about a navaid hint to help algorithms choose
the right and optimal destination point for a certain object and mode
of transportation.

If its foot and you have a footway to the entrance - Its the entrance.
If there is an explicit car park than its that for the car. If its
by bus you can select the bus stop (in which case you switch mode of
transportation and have your next destination from the navaid relation)

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Florian Lohoff]

Hola Mateusz,

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 12:26:01AM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> 21 May 2019, 23:46 by f...@zz.de:
> 
> > - Houses which are routeable by road a but are near road b or vice
> >  versa.
> >
> > Adding more roads aka service/driveway does not necessary make it more
> > deterministic.
> >
> Can you give example of residential building with fully mapped roads, footways
> and obstacles where well written router will fail?

- Baumstraße 43a, Gütersloh, Germany
It does not have a connection to Baumstraße but to
Hermann-Vogelsang-Straße.

It still will be routed through Baumstraße and the driveway to
Baumstraße 45a

IMHO unfixable without bending geometry 

- Dalbker Straße 40a, Oerlinghausen, Germany 
  Dalbker Straße 44a, Oerlinghausen, Germany 
Both fixed by moving the Address to a node, moving it further to
Dalkbker Straße within the outline of the Building.

Otherwise you'd be routed to Buchweizenweg without access to
the Building. This is what multiple of my collegues complained
about.

Here i bend geometry until it halfway worked.

Just 2 examples for the last 10 days or so. And footways wont help
you in a car profile. You could bring a footway directly connecting
the entrance to the Street.

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Jan S]

Am 22. Mai 2019 00:44:51 MESZ schrieb Mateusz Konieczny 
:
>
>22 May 2019, 00:38 by marc_marc_...@hotmail.com:
>
>> Le 22.05.19 à 00:16, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
>>
>>>
>>> Hi marc,
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:02:53PM +, marc marc wrote:
>>>
 Hello,

 Le 21.05.19 à 23:46, Florian Lohoff a écrit :

> Currently all Routing/Navigation application try hard to find
> the nearest or best point on the routeable network for a given
> destination lat/lon or object.
>

 with best, you mean : only one ? that look like wrong
 a destination can have several points depending on the type
 of locomotion.
 the same type of locomotion can have several points, e.g. several
>ways
 that desert a station by foot, several other for car, ...

>>>
>>> What is the expectation to get navigated to when selecting a park?
>>>
>>
>> there is no such thing as "a single point that makes everyone agree"
>> take the case of a square park fenced by a fence, surrounded by 4 
>> streets each with a pedestrian entrance to the park.
>> those arriving from the north will probably want to stop at the
>street 
>> to the north, while those arriving from the south will probably want
>to 
>> stop at the street at the south entrance.
>> Those who have difficulty walking will probably prefer the car park 
>> closest to an entrance, while others will prefer parking for people
>with 
>> reduced mobility or free parking, all while they have all come by
>car.
>> on the basis of which objective criteria will you decide which point
>of 
>> the public network is most suitable to reach the park?
>>
>Also, some people may drive (bicycle), other may arrive by a public
>transport
>others may walk or drive (by car) etc.
>
>See for example https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/50.06288/19.91742
>
>- a park that has multiple entrances, each may be preferred in some
>situation.

I am also against mapping for navigation purposes. The data shall reflect the 
truth on the ground, all else is up to the programme making use of that data.

In case of a park with multiple entrances (which would obviously have to be 
recognisable by other programmes), it's up to the routing software to route you 
either to the entrance closest to you, the one that's best to be reached given 
the means of transport chosen or maybe offer you a choice of entrances to 
select from.

The same goes for big complexes like airports. Take Madrid Barajas or London 
Heathrow with terminal buildings at different locations, plus a cargo area and 
maybe a general aviation area. Here, you obviously have to chose a specific 
point you want to be routed to, and then the routing software should take you 
to an entry point of that specific place.

I imagine that like on a taxi. If you say "Take me to Heathrow", the driver 
will inevitably ask "Which terminal?". If you say "Take me to Central Park", 
the driver will, again, ask you for a more specific location or make a decision 
for you (the nearest/furthest entry, depending on his/her honesty ;)). These 
very decisions should be made, or these very questions asked by a routing 
programme.

Best, Jan

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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

22 May 2019, 00:38 by marc_marc_...@hotmail.com:

> Le 22.05.19 à 00:16, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
>
>>
>> Hi marc,
>>
>> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:02:53PM +, marc marc wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Le 21.05.19 à 23:46, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
>>>
 Currently all Routing/Navigation application try hard to find
 the nearest or best point on the routeable network for a given
 destination lat/lon or object.

>>>
>>> with best, you mean : only one ? that look like wrong
>>> a destination can have several points depending on the type
>>> of locomotion.
>>> the same type of locomotion can have several points, e.g. several ways
>>> that desert a station by foot, several other for car, ...
>>>
>>
>> What is the expectation to get navigated to when selecting a park?
>>
>
> there is no such thing as "a single point that makes everyone agree"
> take the case of a square park fenced by a fence, surrounded by 4 
> streets each with a pedestrian entrance to the park.
> those arriving from the north will probably want to stop at the street 
> to the north, while those arriving from the south will probably want to 
> stop at the street at the south entrance.
> Those who have difficulty walking will probably prefer the car park 
> closest to an entrance, while others will prefer parking for people with 
> reduced mobility or free parking, all while they have all come by car.
> on the basis of which objective criteria will you decide which point of 
> the public network is most suitable to reach the park?
>
Also, some people may drive (bicycle), other may arrive by a public transport
others may walk or drive (by car) etc.

See for example https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/50.06288/19.91742 

- a park that has multiple entrances, each may be preferred in some situation.
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[marc marc]

Le 22.05.19 à 00:16, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> 
> Hi marc,
> 
> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:02:53PM +, marc marc wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Le 21.05.19 à 23:46, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
>>> Currently all Routing/Navigation application try hard to find
>>> the nearest or best point on the routeable network for a given
>>> destination lat/lon or object.
>>
>> with best, you mean : only one ? that look like wrong
>> a destination can have several points depending on the type
>> of locomotion.
>> the same type of locomotion can have several points, e.g. several ways
>> that desert a station by foot, several other for car, ...
> 
> What is the expectation to get navigated to when selecting a park?

there is no such thing as "a single point that makes everyone agree"
take the case of a square park fenced by a fence, surrounded by 4 
streets each with a pedestrian entrance to the park.
those arriving from the north will probably want to stop at the street 
to the north, while those arriving from the south will probably want to 
stop at the street at the south entrance.
Those who have difficulty walking will probably prefer the car park 
closest to an entrance, while others will prefer parking for people with 
reduced mobility or free parking, all while they have all come by car.
on the basis of which objective criteria will you decide which point of 
the public network is most suitable to reach the park?

>> put one or more node on the outer with entrance=yes/main :)
>> I use foot/vehicle/bicycle=designed to describe the type
>> of locomotion for this entrance
> 
> This does not work for all cases and all objects.

an exemple at least ?

>>> - Houses which are routeable by road a but are near road b
>>
>> add door/entrance but also add missing ways to connect to the road A
> 
> Doesnt work - You are navigating by car but you only have a footway up
> to hour house - Still the house is near road b - thus you get navigated
> to the wrong street.

that's a bug/a feature needed in the routing, all info exist in osm
to find the path to reatch to the house, instead of leaving you at
a closer location but whose routing to the house is unknown

> Detaching addresses from house geometries putting it near the road 
> i expect people to be navigated to.

so UGLY ! You decide, for the example of the park, that everyone
must use YOUR favorite entrance.
it is tagging for your-routing, instead of allowing routing to have 
personalized options (shortest route, least walking, close to a parking, 
disabled accessible up to the poi)

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

22 May 2019, 00:16 by f...@zz.de:

> Doesnt work - You are navigating by car but you only have a footway up
> to hour house - Still the house is near road b - thus you get navigated
> to the wrong street.
>
In this case router should be improved to route toward  house, not
to road segment closest to a building.

Fixing it in the router will take less effort that both 
adding data over and over again (even assuming that this kind of data has a 
place in OSM)
AND changing router anyway to support this new relation.

>> > work in application A but not B.
>>
>> open an issue for B ?
>>
>
> So for every kind of object we open bugs for Applications a-z except
> $RANDOMAPP ?
>
Yes, there is no point opening one for $RANDOMAPP that works well.

> Currently i fake geometries to fix these kind of issues. Detaching
> addresses from house geometries putting it near the road i expect
> people to be navigated to.
>
Please, stop damaging data as a workaround for low quality routers.
This is a case of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer

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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 07:47, Florian Lohoff  wrote:

>
> - Houses which are routeable by road a but are near road b or vice
>   versa.
>

That could be a "problem" due to GPS (?) system being so accurate?

For instance, where I am sitting now at the back of my house, various GPS /
location / navigation systems tell me that I am actually at the address
behind us, of That Road, rather than My Street, because I'm about 1m closer
to that street!

If I turn OSMand on & ask it to take me from my present location to my
Home, it will tell me to walk or drive around the block!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

21 May 2019, 23:46 by f...@zz.de:

> - Houses which are routeable by road a but are near road b or vice
>  versa.
>
> Adding more roads aka service/driveway does not necessary make it more
> deterministic.
>
Can you give example of residential building with fully mapped roads, footways
and obstacles where well written router will fail?
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi marc,

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:02:53PM +, marc marc wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Le 21.05.19 à 23:46, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> > Currently all Routing/Navigation application try hard to find
> > the nearest or best point on the routeable network for a given
> > destination lat/lon or object.
> 
> with best, you mean : only one ? that look like wrong
> a destination can have several points depending on the type
> of locomotion.
> the same type of locomotion can have several points, e.g. several ways 
> that desert a station by foot, several other for car, ...

What is the expectation to get navigated to when selecting a park? When 
there are several for a car? Currently its random where you get
navigated to - There is no deteministic type to describe the nav point.
It depends on geometries of roads which might not describe the real
point you want to be guided to.

Geometries of the Park and Road follow strict "map what you see" or 
"ground truth" - With this principle there is no way to map the nav
point without bending ground truth.

> > - Large OSM objects like airports, campsites, parks, malls etc are not 
> > really
> >identified by a node/point in OSM but an area. Currently it is mostly
> >luck if this is correctly routable.
> 
> put one or more node on the outer with entrance=yes/main :)
> I use foot/vehicle/bicycle=designed to describe the type
> of locomotion for this entrance

This does not work for all cases and all objects.
 
> > - Houses which are routeable by road a but are near road b
> 
> add door/entrance but also add missing ways to connect to the road A

Doesnt work - You are navigating by car but you only have a footway up
to hour house - Still the house is near road b - thus you get navigated
to the wrong street.

> > work in application A but not B.
> 
> open an issue for B ?

So for every kind of object we open bugs for Applications a-z except
$RANDOMAPP ?

Wouldnt it make sense to have a generic description for this problem?

Currently i fake geometries to fix these kind of issues. Detaching
addresses from house geometries putting it near the road i expect
people to be navigated to.

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] Navaid relation?

[marc marc]

Hello,

Le 21.05.19 à 23:46, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> Currently all Routing/Navigation application try hard to find
> the nearest or best point on the routeable network for a given
> destination lat/lon or object.

with best, you mean : only one ? that look like wrong
a destination can have several points depending on the type
of locomotion.
the same type of locomotion can have several points, e.g. several ways 
that desert a station by foot, several other for car, ...

> - Large OSM objects like airports, campsites, parks, malls etc are not really
>identified by a node/point in OSM but an area. Currently it is mostly
>luck if this is correctly routable.

put one or more node on the outer with entrance=yes/main :)
I use foot/vehicle/bicycle=designed to describe the type
of locomotion for this entrance

> - Houses which are routeable by road a but are near road b

add door/entrance but also add missing ways to connect to the road A

> work in application A but not B.

open an issue for B ?

Regards,
Marc
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[Tagging] Navaid relation?

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi,
is there any Navaid relation to map an object to a point on 
the routeable network?

Currently all Routing/Navigation application try hard to find the
nearest or best point on the routeable network for a given 
destination lat/lon or object.

I have seen this fail for multiple occurences over the last
decade and i was pointed to one again from a collegue of mine.

Some examples:

- Large OSM objects like airports, campsites, parks, malls etc are not really
  identified by a node/point in OSM but an area. Currently it is mostly
  luck if this is correctly routable. 
- Houses which are routeable by road a but are near road b or vice
  versa.

Adding more roads aka service/driveway does not necessary make it more
deterministic.

People try to work around by adding entrance=yes/main whatever tagging
to objects which work in application A but not B.

In my head i have a relation which has the source object, destination
node on the routeable network and the vehicle/mode of transportation 
to use this for (car, bicycle and foot may have different destinations)

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
UTF-8 Test: The  ran after a , but the  ran away


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