Re: Strange Error

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

in other words the cause is in the html / javascript and 4D is simply relaying 
an uncaught exception.

perhaps you are using the system wa and the os was updated recently. perhaps 
the page is hosted remotely and updated recently. perhaps the code received 
malformed dynamic data it was not prepared to deal with.



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Re: C-objects and memory use

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

> You've got a point about mixed arrays. 4D doesn't deal with them well. I
> couldn't get 4D to let me change longs[2] to an object, for instance,
> without loosing the longint values.

Yeah, that's taking me back...you can get 4D to coerce anything into text,
unless it's an object...in which case you know it's an object. But the
coercion isn't a real coercion, it can clear out values. So it's not safe.
That might have been the show stopper.

Take this the right way: I'm not looking at your code samples. I have not
dog in this fight. I checked out these features, found they were lacking in
some ways for some purposes, bitched about it on the Forums, made some
feature requests...and then got back to my life.

> ​It sounds like you are working on a project where you want to be able to
> import a data object from a json and be able to completely organize the
> database based on the data found.

Nope. I want to emulate some of the benefits of structs. 4D just doesn't
seem to see the need. I don't, can't, and won't understand that - it makes
no sense to me. Rolling my own schema+validation+object creator is a pretty
desperate cry for help on it's own. Who does that these days? No one. It's
a crazy piece of infrastructure to have to add to a language through custom
code...it's just fundamental bits of plumbing that should be there. And
then it turned out to be impossible to do satisfactorily with existing
native tools. Gave up. Fortunately, I've got a keen interest in a lot of
things, so it's not hard for me to move on to a new challenge. Squirrel!

P.S. Squirrels and Woodpeckers are two things that I really do miss in
Australia.
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Re: JSON Tools Was: Re: C-objects and memory use

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 12:13 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> David,
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:14 AM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>


> Can you give me an example of the kind of situation you're talking about?​
>

Incredibly jet-lagged and short on sleep, so don't expect a great answer. I
dug deep into this a few months back when I was trying to write my own
schema for validation of custom types implemented in objects. I'd done the
same in V13 using NTK's JSON commands. Couldn't get it to work in 4D
because the parsers presume specific formats. Couldn't get the types of
arrays stashed by 4D either. (4D doesn't support collections in any form in
shipping versions open to discussion here.)

As much as I've used JSON in 4D for many years, that's where I come from
with JSON. If you're in JavaScript, it's pretty normal to convert JSON
formats for various reasons. Collections, arrays of objects, objects with
arrays, straight KVPs, flattened arrays...there are a lot of common
formats. I haven't found that flexibility with the built-in commands. When
I asked on the Forums, I came away with the impression that 4D was saying
"Yes, we're incomplete in that sense, but we do this other stuff with it."
Unless I'm mis-remembering, I don't think it was much of a question that
the command set wasn't a full JSON library.

Oh wait, maybe I can offer an explanation you'll agree with. There's a set
of problems where you already know what's in the JSON. Your code "knows"
what's there and, yes, that's what there. That works fine in 4D if you're
doing 4D:4D stuff. No problem. (I'd like to generalize it to emulate
structs, but every way I mention this makes the folks at 4D seem to react
like 1) I'm honking link some kind of deranged goose and 2) A bit of pate
would go nicely right about now.)  Anyway, there's another class of
problems where you either can't know the format in advance (it's coming
from the outside word), or don't want to (because you're writing a
generalized routine to operate on JSON for some reason...I've got lots of
cases like this.) Can you do this kind of blind-but-comprehensive traversal
of a random (but valid) JSON block in 4D? Maybe. I couldn't, despite trying
and following suggestions. Perhaps it's just that it's not set up for that,
or that it's harder than it ought to be. For example, you need to know in
advance what your JSON is at the top: Object or array. Wrong input, you
blow up. I guess you could trap for that, etc. Pain.

If you're doing nothing but 4D:4D work, then there is probably nothing
missing. But that's not the world I live in. It may also be that 4D
improves and can do more. But here's the deal on how I work:

* I've got a requirement. That means that I have the requirement *now*, not
at some unknown future date, so I can only use reliable, shipping tools.
(From whatever source.) I mean, I may have a few weeks or months, but not
long enough to wait for new releases.

* I'll try out what seems to be available in 4D, possibly quite
intensively. Do the features match what I'm trying to do? If not, is there
a workaround? If the answers are "no" and "no", I'm done. I don't follow
up, I don't keep track. It's in the rear view mirror for me. So, upcoming
features are of no use or even much interest to me. I decided about 20
years ago "Only plan around released software that you have in your hands."
That's a rule of thumb I've never regretted. Don't take this to mean me
saying that 4D should do everything that I need, of course that's unlikely.
But if it doesn't, I don't have to wait.

* I do the same with any set of tools, not just 4D, by the way. Actually,
here's my more complete package for tools assessment. Be that an API,
commercial offering, piece of software, etc.

-- Try and solve a real and specific problem. These days, there are so many
options that ticking all of the big boxes may not narrow the field enough.
The details matter. So dig in deeply on a real problem and see how it goes.
This usually takes a couple of days.

-- Need help? Great! Try and get some! Contact tech support, look for
forums, SO threads, etc. It makes a *huge* difference to me how the company
responds. I'm very upfront. If I haven't given them money yet, I just say
"I haven't given you money yet, but I'm checking this out." If I think that
I'm doing something a bit unusual, I tell them so and why. Good customer
service and general communications attitude can make/break a choice.

-- Docs. Super important to me. Maybe more than some...or even more than
most. But without detailed docs, it means that I have to do way more
testing than I want just to figure out how to get things up and running.
That's a big, potentially giant time-sucking hole. *Exactly* the sort of
thing that increases the chances that a tool/product gets cut out of
consideration.
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FAQ:  

Re: C-objects and memory use

[Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech]

David,
First off I hadn't seen this when I posted on the other thread so thanks
for giving me something specific.

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:24 AM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Anyway, to your question. Check out JSON libraries in any other language
> you like, you'll see what I'm saying. You can
>
> * Freely inject any valid JSON element at any point, so arrays within
> objects, objects within arrays, whatever you need.
> * Read the same.
>
​I banged this out pretty quickly:
​

$obj:=JSON Parse("{}")

OB SET($obj;"name";"kirk")

ARRAY OBJECT($aObjs;5)

​ // would be nice to be able to specify a default value...​

$aObjs{1}:=JSON Parse("{}")
$aObjs{2}:=JSON Parse("{}")
$aObjs{3}:=JSON Parse("{}")
$aObjs{4}:=JSON Parse("{}")
$aObjs{5}:=JSON Parse("{}")

OB SET ARRAY($obj;"array1";$aObjs)

ARRAY LONGINT($aLong;3)
$aLong{1}:=1000
$aLong{2}:=2000
$aLong{3}:=3000

OB SET ARRAY($aObjs{1};"longs";$aLong)
OB SET($aObjs{1};"timeStamp";String(Current date;ISO date;Current time))

OB SET($aObjs{2};"key1";"a")

$obj2:=JSON Parse("{}")
OB SET($obj2;\
"key1";"asdfas";\
"key2";"asdfas";\
"key3";"asdfas")

OB SET($obj;"obj2-1";OB Copy($obj2))

OB SET($obj2;"key2";"I changed this one")

OB SET($aObjs{5};"obj2-2";$obj2)

4D_ALERT (JSON Stringify($obj;*))


​and the object it creates is:

​{
"name": "kirk",
"array1": [
{
"longs": [
1000,
2000,
3000
],
"timeStamp": "2017-07-26T12:29:01"
},
{
"key1": "a"
},
{},
{},
{
"obj2-2": {
"key1": "asdfas",
"key2": "I changed this one",
"key3": "asdfas"
}
}
],
"obj2-1": {
"key1": "asdfas",
"key2": "asdfas",
"key3": "asdfas"
}
}


You've got a point about mixed arrays. 4D doesn't deal with them well. I
couldn't get 4D to let me change longs[2] to an object, for instance,
without loosing the longint values.

Though it will read such a JSON - I made the change in a text editor, saved
the file and 4D parses it, correctly, to a c-obj. This is with 15.4HF3. But
it won't let me manipulate it fully. Suggests that JSON is mapped fully
internally but the tools aren't fully written.

I tried the same thing with NTK and I can, indeed, drill down into the
array and manipulate the elements independently of each other.

And I mis-spoke about not being able to change a specific key and have it
propagate up to the parent object. I'm not sure what mistake I made before
that lead me to that conclusion but I see I was wrong. Or maybe it's
because I was working in v13? Anyway, I stand corrected about NTK in v15+.

* Scan items and figure out a bit about their type. (This is a real pain in
> 4D when you use their array embedding tools.)
>
​This really gets to be program specific. If you go back to the json.org
it's defined an a text based data exchange format. So there's nothing in
the json spec about data type - it's all text. All the 'type' stuff has to
be added on to whatever the program wants to do. With the exception of
mixed arrays 4D is pretty good about managing the it's data types within a
c-obj. If I put a date value into a key I can get a date back out and I can
find out it's a data value. ​

Here's an exercise: Define a C_OBJECT that has 'rules'. These rules can
> just be in your head, but they should be something like "This element which
> is required must have a value in the range such and so. This element which
> is an array must have elements with contents in this range", etc. Figure
> out how to do it in 4D. Mostly, you can, some bits, you just can't. I
> tried. Hard. Failed.
>

​It sounds like you are working on a project where you want to be able to
import a data object from a json and be able to completely organize the
database based on the data found. That would be cool. But there's going to
have to be some negotiation beforehand about what's what I think, and the
lack of that isn't a fault on 4D's part. In the javaScript world there's
something called Simple Schema that lets you create and impose rules on
json data for things like Mongo. ​This lets you create the rules like you
mention. I can do the same thing in 4D and then have a criteria to validate
a data object against to see if I know what to do with all.


-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
===

*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing.*

*- Edmund Burke*
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Re: C-objects and memory use

[Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech]

Sorry, forgot to say v16R3 is required to use NEW OBJECT in the example.

Keith - CDI

> On Jul 26, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> That's what I see here.  Same with passing the object to a new process.  So, 
> not ref-counting, or ref-counting just within a process?  
> 
> The behavior of passing an object to a method called from a form button is 
> slightly different from calling the method's commands directly in the button. 
>  It's cosmetic, the appearance of the c_object in the form does not change 
> first instance.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/v5yrxzzayqurmo5/testPtrPtr.zip?dl=0
> 
> Keith - CDI
> 
>> On Jul 25, 2017, at 3:31 PM, Peter Bozek via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 9:49 PM, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <
>> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I asked 4D and was told that if object is passed to worker, worker gets
>> copy. Did not test that, but it makes sense.
>> -- 
>> Peter Bozek
> 
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Re: C-objects and memory use

[Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech]

That's what I see here.  Same with passing the object to a new process.  So, 
not ref-counting, or ref-counting just within a process?  

The behavior of passing an object to a method called from a form button is 
slightly different from calling the method's commands directly in the button.  
It's cosmetic, the appearance of the c_object in the form does not change first 
instance.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v5yrxzzayqurmo5/testPtrPtr.zip?dl=0

Keith - CDI

> On Jul 25, 2017, at 3:31 PM, Peter Bozek via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 9:49 PM, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> I asked 4D and was told that if object is passed to worker, worker gets
> copy. Did not test that, but it makes sense.
> -- 
> Peter Bozek

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Re: JSON Tools Was: Re: C-objects and memory use

[Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech]

David,
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:14 AM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Hey, I'm fine that 4D does whatever it wants in C_OBJECTs however they want
> to. Their program, their rules. What I was responding to was Kirk's point
> about JSON per se. If you want to use JSON as an interchange format, we
> don't have a complete set of tools natively in the 4D language. JSON is
> normally treated as a tree (well, it is a tree) that you can parse and
> navigate. In 4D, you can do this using NTK.
>
​At the risk of appearing really dense what are the specific things you can
do with NTK that you can't do with native 4D? I use them both and I just
don't get what you are referring to. There are differences in the way they
provide access but I don't see how that results in a limit to what you can
do.

And like I said currently you can use native 4D tools to parse a c-obj and
make a change to a single key of a nested obj and the parent object is
updated (anyone joining in here should probably read the other thread for
the details). This is because of the object referencing we talked about in
the other thread. NTK doesn't support that right now so you can't do it.
Personally I find that really useful.

Can you give me an example of the kind of situation you're talking about?​

-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
===

*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing.*

*- Edmund Burke*
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Re: User activity

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

Ferdinando:

Yes, we always found that too where people have long ago quit out of Remote 
Desktop, but not 4D. Many users just do not understand the differences. All 
they know is that the application is no longer on their screen. We would find 
this when we went to do maintenance on their server remotely. For this reason 
when a workstation is logged out for longer than ‘x’ minutes you can then use 
the 4D command to quit the 4D client. This then frees up 4D server connections.

There is work required in setting this all up though so that you can determine 
when there is activity. As long as there is activity then you know not to shut 
it down.

Jody

> On Jul 26, 2017, at 11:54 AM, stardata.info via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The my users, at the end of work, not close 4D application, but close remote 
> desktop connection.
> 
> So i have some users that occupies a 4D serve connection but not work.
> 
> I need to understand the real users that work, and close others.
> 
> Thanks
> Ferdinando
> 
> Il 26/07/2017 19:15, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com ha scritto:
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 07:38:17 -0600
>> From: Jody Bevan
>> To: 4D iNug Technical<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
>> Subject: Re: User activity
>> Message-ID:
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
>> 
>> Ferdinand:
>> 
>> In another ‘life’ we had several thousand users on Remote Desktop to 4D 
>> client. The problem usually was that their connection to the client server 
>> was broken (internet problems). They really liked that they could reconnect 
>> and their was their work. Therefore we didn’t worry about this, it was a 
>> good feature.
>> 
>> Of course there is the issue of them disconnected with no intention of 
>> coming back on any time soon. For this we had code that was in the code of 
>> our application. It watched constantly for inactivity. For each workstation 
>> there could be a different setting. After ‘x’ time it would hide all 
>> windows, and bring up the login screen. We then also had code that at a 
>> certain time of the night we would provide a count down to all signed in 
>> users (including those mentioned above) that would tell them the server was 
>> closing connection. We would then use the Quit 4D command to shut the client 
>> connection down.
>> 
>> Not sure if this helps you - it is just what we did.
>> 
>> 
>> Jody Bevan
>> ARGUS Productions Inc.
>> Developer
>> 
>> Argus Productions Inc.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 26, 2017, at 3:21 AM, stardata.info via 
>>> 4D_Tech<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> User activity.
>>> 
>>> I have a 4D application on windows and some users that work with client 
>>> using remote desktop.
>>> I need to know when the user close remote desktop.
>>> Is possible to check the list of users connected with remote desktop and 
>>> actives?
>>> So i can close a 4d application for the users that are not active on remote 
>>> desktop.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> /Ferdinand
> 
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RE: Question about building an installer

[Timothy Penner via 4D_Tech]

Hi Kirk,

It gets a bit tricky to use the Program Files directory to store your database 
files or merged application. You may want to review this tech tip regarding the 
challenges and recommendation:
http://kb.4d.com/assetid=76405

Kind Regards,

Tim PENNER




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RE: User activity

[Timothy Penner via 4D_Tech]

Hello,

> So i have some users that occupies a 4D serve connection but not work.
> I need to understand the real users that work, and close others.

Maybe the Idle User Detective will help you remove/disconnect users who have 
been Idle for a predefined amount of time.
http://kb.4d.com/assetid=76221

Kind Regards,

Tim PENNER



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Re: C-objects and memory use

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:43 AM, Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> I think 4D does put effort into documentation. The manuals are there for
each new release (that is a great start).
> The BLOGs are great pieces to get introduced to a new feature. I am
amazed at the graphics they add into the
> BLOGs (maybe I am simple). The web page too. So there is effort and money
being put in.

Yes, they definitely document all of the commands, but there's rarely
anything about trade-offs/pros-cons/best practice, real-world examples,
technical details, etc. I'm using a lot of different docs from different
places and so I'm getting a new perspective on what docs look like these
days.

I agree about the blog! I really like it. It's technical marketing material
very well done. I forget to visit often enough and wish that 4D would post
reminders on this list. Or maybe they do and I just don't notice? Anyway,
anyone who hasn't visited the blob (or done so recently), it's very good.
It's probably the best thing they've got going now of that sort. Well,
short of when Miyako says just about anything ;-)
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Re: User activity

[stardata.info via 4D_Tech]

Hi,

The my users, at the end of work, not close 4D application, but close 
remote desktop connection.


So i have some users that occupies a 4D serve connection but not work.

I need to understand the real users that work, and close others.

Thanks
Ferdinando

Il 26/07/2017 19:15, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com ha scritto:

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 07:38:17 -0600
From: Jody Bevan
To: 4D iNug Technical<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Subject: Re: User activity
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=utf-8

Ferdinand:

In another ‘life’ we had several thousand users on Remote Desktop to 4D client. 
The problem usually was that their connection to the client server was broken 
(internet problems). They really liked that they could reconnect and their was 
their work. Therefore we didn’t worry about this, it was a good feature.

Of course there is the issue of them disconnected with no intention of coming 
back on any time soon. For this we had code that was in the code of our 
application. It watched constantly for inactivity. For each workstation there 
could be a different setting. After ‘x’ time it would hide all windows, and 
bring up the login screen. We then also had code that at a certain time of the 
night we would provide a count down to all signed in users (including those 
mentioned above) that would tell them the server was closing connection. We 
would then use the Quit 4D command to shut the client connection down.

Not sure if this helps you - it is just what we did.


Jody Bevan
ARGUS Productions Inc.
Developer

Argus Productions Inc.





On Jul 26, 2017, at 3:21 AM, stardata.info via 4D_Tech<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>  
wrote:

User activity.

I have a 4D application on windows and some users that work with client using 
remote desktop.
I need to know when the user close remote desktop.
Is possible to check the list of users connected with remote desktop and 
actives?
So i can close a 4d application for the users that are not active on remote 
desktop.

Thanks
/Ferdinand


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Re: C-objects and memory use

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

David:

You could very well be right. I don’t get to see behind the curtain to have 
even a hint.

It is the same with all aspects of a company. Jonoke became ISO 9001 certified, 
and we became better each year in communication with our users. Because the 
person at the top thought these things were a priority and put the resources in 
place. We automated a lot of communication, got the company culture moved a 
long ways to living ISO 9001. We were far from perfect, but we were better and 
better each year.

I found the programmers (on the whole) are very much against documentation. 
Trying to get them to write it was near impossible. I therefore had to 
compromise and hire some quasi technical people that would sit with the 
programmers as they needed and would write up the manual. To finish the loop 
though, I needed to get the programmer to seriously review the documentation 
and provide feedback until it was right. Some programmers did ok with this, but 
some were still against doing the work.

I think 4D does put effort into documentation. The manuals are there for each 
new release (that is a great start). The BLOGs are great pieces to get 
introduced to a new feature. I am amazed at the graphics they add into the 
BLOGs (maybe I am simple). The web page too. So there is effort and money being 
put in. 

We just want more… (sounds like my customers).


Jody Bevan
ARGUS Productions Inc.
Developer

Argus Productions Inc. 




> On Jul 26, 2017, at 11:32 AM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hey Jody,
> 
> I think to get the level of docs that we need, or that other tools have,
> you would need some dedicated tech evangelist/writers on staff and a
> commitment from management to make it a priority. Back when I was working
> on my materials for the World Tour (Southern edition), I sent an email to
> four different countries offering to rewrite some of their CALL WORKER
> documentation (gratis). I never even got a response. So, no, I don't think
> it's a management priority.
> **
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Re: C-objects and memory use

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

Hey Jody,

I think to get the level of docs that we need, or that other tools have,
you would need some dedicated tech evangelist/writers on staff and a
commitment from management to make it a priority. Back when I was working
on my materials for the World Tour (Southern edition), I sent an email to
four different countries offering to rewrite some of their CALL WORKER
documentation (gratis). I never even got a response. So, no, I don't think
it's a management priority.
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Re: C-objects and memory use

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

Jeff's question about "why with C_OBJECT but not with BLOBs and pictures"
got me thinking a bit. Yeah, fair point. I can see in a language with no
pointer-like features why you would work things the way C_OBJECT works.
Personally, I like the explicit pointer syntax and find it helpful to be
reminded very clearly when I'm dealing with something indirectly.

So why did 4D abandon this for their
ref-counting-with-automatic-garbage-collection-but-who-really-knows-what-scope-means-now?
Haven't a clue. I can think up a bunch of different possibilities, ranging
across all positions on the Tech Ideas Continuum:

||__|__||
 Monsters! Eh?  M'eh
 Nice one   Geniuses!

You'll have to ask 4D France to explain, if they're willing.
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Re: C-objects and memory use

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

> What can you only do with NTK you can not do with 4D c-objects?
...tired right now...about 16 hours on planes. Whoever said "sleeping like
a baby" clearly hadn't met any babies.

Anyway, to your question. Check out JSON libraries in any other language
you like, you'll see what I'm saying. You can

* Freely inject any valid JSON element at any point, so arrays within
objects, objects within arrays, whatever you need.
* Read the same.
* Scan items and figure out a bit about their type. (This is a real pain in
4D when you use their array embedding tools.)

Here's an exercise: Define a C_OBJECT that has 'rules'. These rules can
just be in your head, but they should be something like "This element which
is required must have a value in the range such and so. This element which
is an array must have elements with contents in this range", etc. Figure
out how to do it in 4D. Mostly, you can, some bits, you just can't. I
tried. Hard. Failed.
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Re: Bug with Open Document on macOS Sierra

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

> - The worker creates it’s own log file - thus no contention issues.
Exactly. That's how servers write log files. File contention at the OS
level is an drenched pit filled with leeches. It's also "slow". Actually,
slow is an issue with logs - if you'r streaming a lot of entries.

So, yes, it's definitely desirable to have one process with an exclusive
lock. That way, you open the file, keep the lock, stream in data you're
getting in memory (CALL WORKER, IPC channels, reading from a log table that
you recycle, etc.), and then close the log when you're done.

To be more specific, the bug I found was when you roll logs. It's pretty
common to close a log when it hits either a certain size or age. Then you
open a new log and start afresh. This is where I found the race conditions.
I wasn't looking for bugs, I was just doing what you normally do when you
write a centralized log process. It's frustrating because this is an
*ideal* use for a worker...kind of an obvious first case. (At least it is
to me and probably everyone else that's dealt with custom logs in depth at
any point.) Not reliable, can't use it.

The other limitation with CALL WORKER is that you will lose log entries
when you kill the worker. "Will" is pretty much accurate. It's part of 4D's
stated design for workers and I don't see any reason to consider it a bug.
But it's a constraint. If you're after a full audit-log, then CALL WORKER
is not an appropriate tool. If you've got some kind of instrumentation
where you're pumping logs full of low-information data that you aggregate
then, yeah, you can lose some rows without changing anything important.
Depends on what you're doing.



On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 6:19 AM, Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> David:
>
> Log files - love them too. Saved huge amounts of time to debug code (at
> least all the bugs I create ;-) )
>
> In our shell I am trying to stay away from plugins - what we and others do
> with the shell for specific projects after that does not matter.
>
> What I have done for logs thus far in the shell and with workers is two
> fold:
>
> - The worker creates it’s own log file - thus no contention issues.
> - I have a ‘Background Viewer’ that displays progress from the workers.
> That Background viewer obviously displays the messages from all the
> workers, but it also writes the messages to it’s own log file. The
> Background Viewer is not as complete of a log file as it is more for a
> progress - and highlight a failed event, where as the regular logging gives
> way more information.
>
> I will be keeping the NTK IPC channel solution in mind. That sounds like
> it could be a good solution. As well, maybe another window that is hidden
> that receives all log file writes and it deals with the file locking and
> writes to disk.
>
>
> Jody Bevan
> ARGUS Productions Inc.
> Developer
>
> Argus Productions Inc. 
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 25, 2017, at 5:11 PM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, CALL WORKER is the *perfect* design for this, unless you can't
> afford
> > to lose log entries. The existing bug, very sadly, makes it a
> non-starter.
> > A reliable approach with the same design is to use NTK IPC channels  Just
> > have one process read the log entries and keep the logs open on disk. 20x
> > faster (not a made up number, by YMMV) than having your processes fight
> > over a file lock.
>
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Re: JSON Tools Was: Re: C-objects and memory use

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

Hey, I'm fine that 4D does whatever it wants in C_OBJECTs however they want
to. Their program, their rules. What I was responding to was Kirk's point
about JSON per se. If you want to use JSON as an interchange format, we
don't have a complete set of tools natively in the 4D language. JSON is
normally treated as a tree (well, it is a tree) that you can parse and
navigate. In 4D, you can do this using NTK.

I was just saying that here where I live (the 21st century), languages need
the ability to read, write, and navigate arbitrary JSON. The limited
options required/supported by C_OBJECT are fine for 4D's internal purposes,
I guess, but that doesn't address all uses of JSON.
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Strange Error

[Nigel Greenlee via 4D_Tech]

Hi

One of my clients is still using 4D V12. Today an error came up that I have not 
seen before and of course the immediate assumption is that I have put the alert 
message in. The alert appears on a form in compositiing mode where the code 
loads a web form(that may or may not be relevant-but that is something i have 
changed on the form recently).  I tried opening the same record and did not get 
an error so i am thinking this error is not something i need to worry about.

I just wondered if anyone else has seen this message before and if you ever 
idendified a cause.

The alert says

Alert

TECHNICAL ERROR

Details:
Error thrown: [object Object]
Text status: Error


Any information anyone can provide will be useful before i get asked what is 
causing it.


Nigel Greenlee


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Re: User activity

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

Ferdinand:

In another ‘life’ we had several thousand users on Remote Desktop to 4D client. 
The problem usually was that their connection to the client server was broken 
(internet problems). They really liked that they could reconnect and their was 
their work. Therefore we didn’t worry about this, it was a good feature.

Of course there is the issue of them disconnected with no intention of coming 
back on any time soon. For this we had code that was in the code of our 
application. It watched constantly for inactivity. For each workstation there 
could be a different setting. After ‘x’ time it would hide all windows, and 
bring up the login screen. We then also had code that at a certain time of the 
night we would provide a count down to all signed in users (including those 
mentioned above) that would tell them the server was closing connection. We 
would then use the Quit 4D command to shut the client connection down.

Not sure if this helps you - it is just what we did.


Jody Bevan
ARGUS Productions Inc.
Developer

Argus Productions Inc. 




> On Jul 26, 2017, at 3:21 AM, stardata.info via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> User activity.
> 
> I have a 4D application on windows and some users that work with client using 
> remote desktop.
> I need to know when the user close remote desktop.
> Is possible to check the list of users connected with remote desktop and 
> actives?
> So i can close a 4d application for the users that are not active on remote 
> desktop.
> 
> Thanks
> /Ferdinand

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Re: LOG File TO JSON - How does it name the files

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

Miyako:

Thanks! After I posted this yesterday and was working away on it I thought I 
should have looked at the documentation one more time. As I got working on the 
looping part of the code I did  - the size parameter is bytes! Yah little 
embarrassed about that. Thanks for your time in doing the research and testing 
I should have done.

Thanks

Jody Bevan
ARGUS Productions Inc.
Developer

Argus Productions Inc. 




> On Jul 25, 2017, at 8:14 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> just set the size to "1" and see for yourself:
> 
> $path:=System folder(Desktop)
> LOG FILE TO JSON($path;1)
> 
> I got
> 
> JournalExport.json
> JournalExport2.json
> ...
> JournalExport10.json
> 
> so there is not underscore.
> 
>> 2017/07/26 7:09、Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
>> 
>> Does anyone know how it names the extra files that it creates?
>> 
>> eg:
>> JournalExport.json
>> JournalExport_1.json
>> JournalExport_2.json

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Re: C-objects and memory use

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

I understand the documentation issue - I just posted yesterday about a hole in 
the documentation. Having done a lot of documentation (still doing it), and 
being the person in charge of all operations I can understand that things fall 
between the cracks. What would be nice though is that there is a way for us to 
point out what we see as a hole in the documentation. If they want, limit it 
partners only to reduce the work load (though us partners are a whiney bunch). 
With the online documentation have a comment area at the bottom of the page - 
something like the technotes. It would be like having a few hundred editors 
going over the documentation.


> On Jul 25, 2017, at 5:07 PM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I am with you on the
> lack of comprehensive documentation.

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Re: Bug with Open Document on macOS Sierra

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

David:

Log files - love them too. Saved huge amounts of time to debug code (at least 
all the bugs I create ;-) )

In our shell I am trying to stay away from plugins - what we and others do with 
the shell for specific projects after that does not matter.

What I have done for logs thus far in the shell and with workers is two fold:

- The worker creates it’s own log file - thus no contention issues.
- I have a ‘Background Viewer’ that displays progress from the workers. That 
Background viewer obviously displays the messages from all the workers, but it 
also writes the messages to it’s own log file. The Background Viewer is not as 
complete of a log file as it is more for a progress - and highlight a failed 
event, where as the regular logging gives way more information.

I will be keeping the NTK IPC channel solution in mind. That sounds like it 
could be a good solution. As well, maybe another window that is hidden that 
receives all log file writes and it deals with the file locking and writes to 
disk.


Jody Bevan
ARGUS Productions Inc.
Developer

Argus Productions Inc. 




> On Jul 25, 2017, at 5:11 PM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, CALL WORKER is the *perfect* design for this, unless you can't afford
> to lose log entries. The existing bug, very sadly, makes it a non-starter.
> A reliable approach with the same design is to use NTK IPC channels  Just
> have one process read the log entries and keep the logs open on disk. 20x
> faster (not a made up number, by YMMV) than having your processes fight
> over a file lock. 

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Re: Serious 4D Internet commands issue in v15.4 with SMTP on Mac OS X

[Spencer Hinsdale via 4D_Tech]

Hi Paul,

Look at forms being used for data entry to see if these text fields have the 
Multi-style checkbox checked in Properties.

Here is a v14 picture:
http://kb.4d.com/assetid=77175

And v15 feature:
http://livedoc.4d.com/4D-Design-Reference-15.4/Properties-for-active-objects/Multi-style-Rich-text-area.300-3285451.en.html




> On Jul 25, 2017, at 9:36 PM, Paul Lovejoy via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> It seems this does not do the trick in all instances.
> 
> It appears there may be a problem with the text in the fields. I exported to 
> text and everything looks fine but some texts truncate with a “?” when the 
> email is sent. I have re-typed some of the offending texts and they work 
> fine. The strange thing is they are identical, character-to-character, to the 
> texts that are truncating in the emails. Could it be something to do with a 
> length byte or something else that 4D stores along with the text in the 
> fields?
> 
> 

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Re: JSON Tools Was: Re: C-objects and memory use

[Peter Bozek via 4D_Tech]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Benedict, Tom via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> David Adams dpad...@gmail.com writes:
>
> >Well, 4D's tools for manipulating JSON are sub-standard, if your goal is
> to parse/produce JSON freely. In this respect, the XML tools (external
> libraries built into 4D) are far more standard and comprehensive.
>
> Along these lines, is there a stable and maintained library for querying
> JSON similar to XPath? I looked for one a few years ago when I was
> developing my Simple Rules Engine but found that there wasn't anything
> mature yet, so I stuck with XML/XPath.
>
> This page http://orangevolt.blogspot.com/2012/12/8-ways-to-query-
> json-structures.html#!/2012/12/8-ways-to-query-json-structures.html
> mentions a number of tools. Anyone have any experience integrating them
> with 4D?
>
>
Note that 4D objects may not be internally not implemented as  JSON data,
but (probably) like hash table - something like std::map. These as standard
does not support even simple constucts like chained keys
(anObject.subObject.subsubObject.property.)


--

Peter Bozek
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RE: Question about building an installer

[Stephen J. Orth via 4D_Tech]

Kirk,

We build installers using Install Shield, but there are no registry entries, or 
any type of "special" configuration we have to use.  Basically, our Install 
Shield installer is a glorified file copy.

We use it to provide a professional look, plus it greatly helps us manage the 
myriad of files required for a Server installation/update.

Best,


Steve

*
  Stephen J. Orth
  The Aquila Group, Inc. Office:  (608) 834-9213
  P.O. Box 690   Mobile:  (608) 347-6447
  Sun Prairie, WI 53590

  E-Mail:  s.o...@the-aquila-group.com
*
-Original Message-
From: 4D_Tech [mailto:4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com] On Behalf Of Kirk Brooks 
via 4D_Tech
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 8:39 PM
To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Cc: Kirk Brooks 
Subject: Question about building an installer

So I'm getting around to building an installer for 4D on client machines.
we're talking windows here.  I just want to verify that there's not fancy
registry magic that's required if I unzip the 4D app into the programs
file. I know 4D has always just configured itself in the past - is that
still true?

-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
===

*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing.*

*- Edmund Burke*
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JSON Tools Was: Re: C-objects and memory use

[Benedict, Tom via 4D_Tech]

David Adams dpad...@gmail.com writes:

>Well, 4D's tools for manipulating JSON are sub-standard, if your goal is to 
>parse/produce JSON freely. In this respect, the XML tools (external libraries 
>built into 4D) are far more standard and comprehensive.

Along these lines, is there a stable and maintained library for querying JSON 
similar to XPath? I looked for one a few years ago when I was developing my 
Simple Rules Engine but found that there wasn't anything mature yet, so I stuck 
with XML/XPath.

This page 
http://orangevolt.blogspot.com/2012/12/8-ways-to-query-json-structures.html#!/2012/12/8-ways-to-query-json-structures.html
 mentions a number of tools. Anyone have any experience integrating them with 
4D?

Tom Benedict
Optum Inc
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User activity

[stardata.info via 4D_Tech]

User activity.

I have a 4D application on windows and some users that work with client 
using remote desktop.

I need to know when the user close remote desktop.
Is possible to check the list of users connected with remote desktop and 
actives?
So i can close a 4d application for the users that are not active on 
remote desktop.


Thanks
/Ferdinando/

Il 26/07/2017 01:07, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com ha scritto:

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: nested components (Chip Scheide)
2. LOG File TO JSON - How does it name the files (Jody Bevan)
3. Listbox entry gotcha (Kirk Brooks)
4. Re: C-objects and memory use (Tom DeMeo)
5. Bug with Open Document on macOS Sierra (Jeffrey Kain)
6. Re: Bug with Open Document on macOS Sierra (Chuck Miller)
7. Re: C-objects and memory use (David Adams)
8. Re: Bug with Open Document on macOS Sierra (Jeffrey Kain)
9. Re: Bug with Open Document on macOS Sierra (David Adams)
   10. Re: C-objects and memory use (Jeffrey Kain)
   11. Re: Bug with Open Document on macOS Sierra (Jeffrey Kain)
   12. Re: C-objects and memory use (David Adams)


--

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 18:03:06 -0400
From: Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org>
To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Subject: Re: nested components
Message-ID: <20170725180306939597.d3722...@pghrepository.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

THANKS!

That should work too.. I'll have to try and play with this a bit.

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 16:56:22 -0500, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech wrote:

I have one component that is used by the Host and by other
components.  These other components are also used by the Host.
4D puts all the components at the same level in the Components folder
at compile time and it works.
The Component can also call a Host method if the method in the Host
is shared.

---
Gas is for washing parts
Alcohol is for drinkin'
Nitromethane is for racing


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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 16:09:48 -0600
From: Jody Bevan 
To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Subject: LOG File TO JSON - How does it name the files
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=utf-8

I am continuing to create a full featured Audit trail system using 4D Backup 
Journal file. It is coming along nicely with a viewer telling me it’s progress, 
and running in a Preemptive Process.

Without having to create huge amounts of data to import I am not going to get 
the JSON file that is generated to be so large that it needs to close one off 
and start another. I have looked in the manual and all it says is:

By default, the maximum size of the exported JSON file is 10 MB. When this size 
is reached, the file is closed and a new file is created.

Does anyone know how it names the extra files that it creates?

eg:
JournalExport.json
JournalExport_1.json
JournalExport_2.json


Jody Bevan
ARGUS Productions Inc.
Developer
Argus Productions Inc. 






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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:11:58 -0700
From: Kirk Brooks 
To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Subject: Listbox entry gotcha
Message-ID:

Re: Question about building an installer

[Paul Dennis via 4D_Tech]

Program Files is read only cant install there. I use advanced installer for
this or innosetp which is free



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