Re: [AFMUG] LFP charging...

[Robert]

I wouldn't use a home made battery in a production site.   _Every_ LFP 
battery I look at has a bms.   They are getting almost cheaper to buy 
with a bms than you can source new cells for without unless you go to 
the auction sites...


On 5/7/24 11:36 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
LFP batteries need a special charger unless they are equipped with a 
built-in BMS. Many, if not most 12V LFP batteries have a built-in BMS.



bp


On 5/7/2024 10:43 AM, Robert wrote:
While I have used, read about, studied, and debated about LFP 
batteries, one thing I cannot find an answer to:


Is there a problem with using a regular voltage supply set to 13.4 
volts ( 90% ) charge to maintain a LFP battery for backup power 
use?   Is there a need to buy a specialized battery charger like a 
samlex to charge an LFP battery?


Note that I am currently using regular power supplies to maintain a 
bank of LFPs.   I just don't know if I am setting up for an issue in 
the future...


   Self heating 12v batteries have reached a new low with one just 
becoming available on Amazon for $229 and, with a netonix, that would 
be a pretty simple system.







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Re: [AFMUG] LFP charging...

[Robert]

I have 60KW of EG4s and am seeing more and more posts of failing BMSs on 
them.  They are showing up on the LFP auction sites for $500 with failed 
BMSs in higher and higher numbers.   Making me nervous of my rack 
reliability..


On 5/7/24 11:36 AM, TJ Trout wrote:
they would work fine at that voltage, but not 100% charged which is a 
good thing. Regular power supplies cannot divert current like a 
DRS-480 for example, so if your system goes to 0% and dies, when AC 
power is restored the power supplies will need to charge the batteries 
and power your load at the same time, if the minimum voltage of your 
equipment isn't met then you might still be offline for some time 
while the batteries charge up to the minimum equipment voltage... 
lifepo4 batteries are a great investment IMO and cheaper than lead if 
you look at the whole picture but I would avoid cheapy amazon 
batteries that are likely to have crap BMS that will fail. Stick with 
EG4 or other known good mfg.


On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 10:52 AM Robert  wrote:

While I have used, read about, studied, and debated about LFP
batteries,
one thing I cannot find an answer to:

Is there a problem with using a regular voltage supply set to 13.4
volts
( 90% ) charge to maintain a LFP battery for backup power use?   Is
there a need to buy a specialized battery charger like a samlex to
charge an LFP battery?

Note that I am currently using regular power supplies to maintain
a bank
of LFPs.   I just don't know if I am setting up for an issue in the
future...

    Self heating 12v batteries have reached a new low with one just
becoming available on Amazon for $229 and, with a netonix, that
would be
a pretty simple system.

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Volt Broadband
209.480.3122 Cell

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[AFMUG] LFP charging...

[Robert]

While I have used, read about, studied, and debated about LFP batteries, 
one thing I cannot find an answer to:


Is there a problem with using a regular voltage supply set to 13.4 volts 
( 90% ) charge to maintain a LFP battery for backup power use?   Is 
there a need to buy a specialized battery charger like a samlex to 
charge an LFP battery?


Note that I am currently using regular power supplies to maintain a bank 
of LFPs.   I just don't know if I am setting up for an issue in the 
future...


   Self heating 12v batteries have reached a new low with one just 
becoming available on Amazon for $229 and, with a netonix, that would be 
a pretty simple system.


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Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Robert]

Also CPE observation time is 3 minutes...

On 5/6/24 1:10 PM, Robert wrote:
If you look at the orbits the density of the non-polar paths get 
higher at higher latitudes so when there were only 200-500 sats in 
orbit, you got a lot more sat "hits" looking farther north.   The pass 
off time from one sat to another is much lower than you might expect 
when the sat is actually visible for 4-10 minutes in the 100 degree 
arc that the CPE observes.  On the order of 1-3 minutes pass-off 
time.    Now that they are at 5->10K sats you can look anywhere and 
get massive number of hits in that 1-3 minutes. They didn't start 
polar orbits until about a year ago to hit Alaska and higher 
latitudes.   They needed the cross sat relays to work before they 
could reach decent ground stations from that north/south.   Looking 
north doesn't help anymore except to optimize avoiding the Clark orbits.


On 5/6/24 12:52 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I presumed they were in polar orbits.
Google shows a bunch of criss cross inclined orbits.
I don’t see how looking in the northern direction would help.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 1:37 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
Well, as I said, you have to take _everything_ she writes with the 
understanding that she is an alarmist and a promoter.   I would be 
pretty sure she got paid by both T-Mobile and Hiboost, & I have seen 
others say the same problem she mentioned about Weboost but both 
times it was proven to be a bad setup.   ( I have weboost but don't 
need it )


Starlink has to avoid transmitting into the Clark Belt, they are 
using the same frequencies.  So they use the northern hemisphere.   
If you aren't on the equator, your dish can be flat and avoid the 
Clark Belt no problemo.  Beam steering decides the pointing and tilt 
is just a hangover of the earlier constraints..


Before the number of sats reached where they are now, they tended to 
use a higher latitude center of focus for the sats because you get 
more density at the northern inclinations of the orbits.   That is 
going away rapidly.   I flat mount my dish in the shower bubble of my 
RV for mobile use.   It shows no obstructions when not under an 
actual obstruction.   It now takes a pretty high/close cliff to 
obstruct the dish and we are seeing the latest s/w doing much better 
with a smaller sky area and probably 15 degrees higher in latitude 
than in the past.  Some people have seen their dishes pointing east 
and west and, amazingly, south.  I suspect that was because Starlink 
was testing the relay system on them. The latest version of the dish 
is supposed to support dual beams from what people are reading in the 
software analysis.  It comes with a fixed stand that only tilts it 
about 15-20 degrees off vertical.  The understanding is that the tilt 
is now just for snow/water shedding.



Starlink has busy hour lower priority for _mobile_ users.  It puts 
the mobile users behind the fixed users for b/w.  _Not_ throttled.   
Lower speeds during 6-10pm are for the same reasons our networks 
experience it and Starlink has loaded on the customers way heavier 
than we probably would.


It takes a _LOT_ of rain to reduce the performance of Starlink.   
I've seen no issues with 1/4-1/2"/hr rain. Granted that is rare in N. 
NV.  But they are transmitting with a lot of power in both 
directions.   I got my first solid disconnection during a massive 
storm in TX when we were there for the eclipse.   That was enough 
rain that it was piling up in the street.  I didn't check my weather 
station as we were headed for a storm shelter.


On 5/6/24 11:10 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

What I found most interesting were the following things I did not know:

  * Starlink needs a _Northern_ sky exposure
  * Starlink has busy hour throttling
  * Starlink slows with rain (expected, and understandable but had
not heard that before)

I liked that she found a brand of booster that she says works well.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 11:59 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good 
stuff.  But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she 
was paid for and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and 
promoted a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long 
enough for the bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home.   If you want to do what 
she is promoting, it's now $160/month


On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the 
service with mobile users just to pull it all away after usage 
became

Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Robert]

oops I misremembered...   15 SECOND pass-off time...

On 5/6/24 1:10 PM, Robert wrote:
If you look at the orbits the density of the non-polar paths get 
higher at higher latitudes so when there were only 200-500 sats in 
orbit, you got a lot more sat "hits" looking farther north.   The pass 
off time from one sat to another is much lower than you might expect 
when the sat is actually visible for 4-10 minutes in the 100 degree 
arc that the CPE observes.  On the order of 1-3 minutes pass-off 
time.    Now that they are at 5->10K sats you can look anywhere and 
get massive number of hits in that 1-3 minutes. They didn't start 
polar orbits until about a year ago to hit Alaska and higher 
latitudes.   They needed the cross sat relays to work before they 
could reach decent ground stations from that north/south.   Looking 
north doesn't help anymore except to optimize avoiding the Clark orbits.


On 5/6/24 12:52 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I presumed they were in polar orbits.
Google shows a bunch of criss cross inclined orbits.
I don’t see how looking in the northern direction would help.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 1:37 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
Well, as I said, you have to take _everything_ she writes with the 
understanding that she is an alarmist and a promoter.   I would be 
pretty sure she got paid by both T-Mobile and Hiboost, & I have seen 
others say the same problem she mentioned about Weboost but both 
times it was proven to be a bad setup.   ( I have weboost but don't 
need it )


Starlink has to avoid transmitting into the Clark Belt, they are 
using the same frequencies.  So they use the northern hemisphere.   
If you aren't on the equator, your dish can be flat and avoid the 
Clark Belt no problemo.  Beam steering decides the pointing and tilt 
is just a hangover of the earlier constraints..


Before the number of sats reached where they are now, they tended to 
use a higher latitude center of focus for the sats because you get 
more density at the northern inclinations of the orbits.   That is 
going away rapidly.   I flat mount my dish in the shower bubble of my 
RV for mobile use.   It shows no obstructions when not under an 
actual obstruction.   It now takes a pretty high/close cliff to 
obstruct the dish and we are seeing the latest s/w doing much better 
with a smaller sky area and probably 15 degrees higher in latitude 
than in the past.  Some people have seen their dishes pointing east 
and west and, amazingly, south.  I suspect that was because Starlink 
was testing the relay system on them. The latest version of the dish 
is supposed to support dual beams from what people are reading in the 
software analysis.  It comes with a fixed stand that only tilts it 
about 15-20 degrees off vertical.  The understanding is that the tilt 
is now just for snow/water shedding.



Starlink has busy hour lower priority for _mobile_ users.  It puts 
the mobile users behind the fixed users for b/w.  _Not_ throttled.   
Lower speeds during 6-10pm are for the same reasons our networks 
experience it and Starlink has loaded on the customers way heavier 
than we probably would.


It takes a _LOT_ of rain to reduce the performance of Starlink.   
I've seen no issues with 1/4-1/2"/hr rain. Granted that is rare in N. 
NV.  But they are transmitting with a lot of power in both 
directions.   I got my first solid disconnection during a massive 
storm in TX when we were there for the eclipse.   That was enough 
rain that it was piling up in the street.  I didn't check my weather 
station as we were headed for a storm shelter.


On 5/6/24 11:10 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

What I found most interesting were the following things I did not know:

  * Starlink needs a _Northern_ sky exposure
  * Starlink has busy hour throttling
  * Starlink slows with rain (expected, and understandable but had
not heard that before)

I liked that she found a brand of booster that she says works well.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 11:59 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good 
stuff.  But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she 
was paid for and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and 
promoted a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long 
enough for the bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home.   If you want to do what 
she is promoting, it's now $160/month


On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the 
service with mobile users just to pull it all away after 

Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Robert]

If you look at the orbits the density of the non-polar paths get higher 
at higher latitudes so when there were only 200-500 sats in orbit, you 
got a lot more sat "hits" looking farther north.   The pass off time 
from one sat to another is much lower than you might expect when the sat 
is actually visible for 4-10 minutes in the 100 degree arc that the CPE 
observes.  On the order of 1-3 minutes pass-off time.    Now that they 
are at 5->10K sats you can look anywhere and get massive number of hits 
in that 1-3 minutes.   They didn't start polar orbits until about a year 
ago to hit Alaska and higher latitudes.   They needed the cross sat 
relays to work before they could reach decent ground stations from that 
north/south. Looking north doesn't help anymore except to optimize 
avoiding the Clark orbits.


On 5/6/24 12:52 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I presumed they were in polar orbits.
Google shows a bunch of criss cross inclined orbits.
I don’t see how looking in the northern direction would help.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 1:37 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
Well, as I said, you have to take _everything_ she writes with the 
understanding that she is an alarmist and a promoter.   I would be 
pretty sure she got paid by both T-Mobile and Hiboost, & I have seen 
others say the same problem she mentioned about Weboost but both times 
it was proven to be a bad setup.   ( I have weboost but don't need it )


Starlink has to avoid transmitting into the Clark Belt, they are using 
the same frequencies.  So they use the northern hemisphere.   If you 
aren't on the equator, your dish can be flat and avoid the Clark Belt 
no problemo. Beam steering decides the pointing and tilt is just a 
hangover of the earlier constraints..


Before the number of sats reached where they are now, they tended to 
use a higher latitude center of focus for the sats because you get 
more density at the northern inclinations of the orbits.   That is 
going away rapidly.   I flat mount my dish in the shower bubble of my 
RV for mobile use.   It shows no obstructions when not under an actual 
obstruction.   It now takes a pretty high/close cliff to obstruct the 
dish and we are seeing the latest s/w doing much better with a smaller 
sky area and probably 15 degrees higher in latitude than in the past.  
Some people have seen their dishes pointing east and west and, 
amazingly, south.  I suspect that was because Starlink was testing the 
relay system on them. The latest version of the dish is supposed to 
support dual beams from what people are reading in the software 
analysis.  It comes with a fixed stand that only tilts it about 15-20 
degrees off vertical.  The understanding is that the tilt is now just 
for snow/water shedding.



Starlink has busy hour lower priority for _mobile_ users. It puts the 
mobile users behind the fixed users for b/w. _Not_ throttled.   Lower 
speeds during 6-10pm are for the same reasons our networks experience 
it and Starlink has loaded on the customers way heavier than we 
probably would.


It takes a _LOT_ of rain to reduce the performance of Starlink.   I've 
seen no issues with 1/4-1/2"/hr rain. Granted that is rare in N. NV.  
But they are transmitting with a lot of power in both directions.   I 
got my first solid disconnection during a massive storm in TX when we 
were there for the eclipse.   That was enough rain that it was piling 
up in the street.  I didn't check my weather station as we were headed 
for a storm shelter.


On 5/6/24 11:10 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

What I found most interesting were the following things I did not know:

  * Starlink needs a _Northern_ sky exposure
  * Starlink has busy hour throttling
  * Starlink slows with rain (expected, and understandable but had
not heard that before)

I liked that she found a brand of booster that she says works well.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 11:59 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good 
stuff.  But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she 
was paid for and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and 
promoted a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long 
enough for the bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home.   If you want to do what 
she is promoting, it's now $160/month


On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the 
service with mobile users just to pull it all away after usage became 
too high in just over a year.


On 5/6/24 10:16 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wr

Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Robert]

There are a +Lot+ of pissed off people. T-Mobile (Actual employees, not 
resellers ) was showing up at RV shows with their home boxes and taking 
orders with a wink and a nod...  They sold thousands of them that way.   
They were dealing off the bottom of the deck on this one.   "How do you 
know a cell salesperson is lying?"


On 5/6/24 11:40 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


Excellent point about the new TMHI “Away” plan.  Reminds me of the 
Netflix crackdown on password sharing.


https://tmo.report/2024/04/uh-oh-t-mobile-will-now-enforce-home-internet-address-eligibility/

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 12:59 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good 
stuff.  But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she was 
paid for and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


 She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and 
promoted a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long 
enough for the bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


 Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home. If you want to do what she 
is promoting, it's now $160/month


 On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the service 
with mobile users just to pull it all away after usage became too high 
in just over a year.


On 5/6/24 10:16 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

https://youtu.be/XcofyNWDyao?si=0ulY_LiFcb2HlnaY




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Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Robert]

Well, as I said, you have to take _everything_ she writes with the 
understanding that she is an alarmist and a promoter.   I would be 
pretty sure she got paid by both T-Mobile and Hiboost, & I have seen 
others say the same problem she mentioned about Weboost but both times 
it was proven to be a bad setup.   ( I have weboost but don't need it )


Starlink has to avoid transmitting into the Clark Belt, they are using 
the same frequencies.  So they use the northern hemisphere.   If you 
aren't on the equator, your dish can be flat and avoid the Clark Belt no 
problemo.  Beam steering decides the pointing and tilt is just a 
hangover of the earlier constraints..


Before the number of sats reached where they are now, they tended to use 
a higher latitude center of focus for the sats because you get more 
density at the northern inclinations of the orbits. That is going away 
rapidly.   I flat mount my dish in the shower bubble of my RV for mobile 
use.   It shows no obstructions when not under an actual obstruction.   
It now takes a pretty high/close cliff to obstruct the dish and we are 
seeing the latest s/w doing much better with a smaller sky area and 
probably 15 degrees higher in latitude than in the past.  Some people 
have seen their dishes pointing east and west and, amazingly, south.  I 
suspect that was because Starlink was testing the relay system on them.  
The latest version of the dish is supposed to support dual beams from 
what people are reading in the software analysis.  It comes with a fixed 
stand that only tilts it about 15-20 degrees off vertical.  The 
understanding is that the tilt is now just for snow/water shedding.



Starlink has busy hour lower priority for _mobile_ users.  It puts the 
mobile users behind the fixed users for b/w.  _Not_ throttled.   Lower 
speeds during 6-10pm are for the same reasons our networks experience it 
and Starlink has loaded on the customers way heavier than we probably 
would.


It takes a _LOT_ of rain to reduce the performance of Starlink. I've 
seen no issues with 1/4-1/2"/hr rain.  Granted that is rare in N. NV.  
But they are transmitting with a lot of power in both directions.   I 
got my first solid disconnection during a massive storm in TX when we 
were there for the eclipse.   That was enough rain that it was piling up 
in the street.  I didn't check my weather station as we were headed for 
a storm shelter.


On 5/6/24 11:10 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

What I found most interesting were the following things I did not know:

  * Starlink needs a _Northern_ sky exposure
  * Starlink has busy hour throttling
  * Starlink slows with rain (expected, and understandable but had not
heard that before)

I liked that she found a brand of booster that she says works well.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 11:59 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good 
stuff.  But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she was 
paid for and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and promoted 
a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long enough for the 
bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home. If you want to do what she 
is promoting, it's now $160/month


On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the service 
with mobile users just to pull it all away after usage became too high 
in just over a year.


On 5/6/24 10:16 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

https://youtu.be/XcofyNWDyao?si=0ulY_LiFcb2HlnaY




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Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Robert]

I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good stuff.  
But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she was paid for 
and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


 She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and promoted 
a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long enough for the 
bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


 Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home.   If you want to do what she 
is promoting, it's now $160/month


 On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the service 
with mobile users just to pull it all away after usage became too high 
in just over a year.


On 5/6/24 10:16 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

https://youtu.be/XcofyNWDyao?si=0ulY_LiFcb2HlnaY

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

[Robert Andrews]

My cherry was broken by an IBM 370 ( a 360 that had been hand wired to 
virtual memory in 73 ) programming in Fortran.  We also rubbed sticks 
together to make fire...


On 5/3/24 10:51, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
First computer I actually programmed was an altair 8080 programmed with 
the front panel switches.
First computer I ever touched and played with was a terminal connected 
to a mainframe somewhere in a science museum in Oregon.  It had a moon 
lander simulator on it.


-Original Message- From: Bill Prince
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 11:24 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

I programmed the first computers I worked on in binary. You would
fat-finger instructions in through the front console, one bit at a time.

bp


On 5/3/2024 10:12 AM, Larry Smith via AF wrote:

On Fri May 3 2024 11:37, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business
Oriented Language.

Hmmm, I programmed in both





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Re: [AFMUG] Fab Rats....

[Robert Andrews]

8:03  !!

On 5/1/24 10:20, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Just barely.  I am looking more like Wilford Brimley every day.  Right 
when they pretty much gave up on getting it started.




Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
-Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 11:06 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fab Rats

Didn't see you in the vid, was hoping you would be...

On 5/1/24 09:36, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
That's my son Ben in there talking about what we do here.  He pretty 
much runs the show.  I am just the old dog wandering from office to 
office looking for snacks.


-Original Message- From: Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 9:55 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fab Rats

So it dropped... will have to take a look.  Thanks.



www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
-Original Message- From: Robert
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 9:36 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: [AFMUG] Fab Rats

Watching my youtubes this am and Fab Rats goes to pick up an airport tug
and the fellow in the video says "We build microtrenching equipment" (
Fab Rats is in Utah ) and I glimpse a bit of what looks like the MTC
logo and sure enough   MTC is on youtube...





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Re: [AFMUG] Fab Rats....

[Robert Andrews]

Didn't see you in the vid, was hoping you would be...

On 5/1/24 09:36, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
That's my son Ben in there talking about what we do here.  He pretty 
much runs the show.  I am just the old dog wandering from office to 
office looking for snacks.


-Original Message- From: Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 9:55 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fab Rats

So it dropped... will have to take a look.  Thanks.



www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
-Original Message- From: Robert
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 9:36 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: [AFMUG] Fab Rats

Watching my youtubes this am and Fab Rats goes to pick up an airport tug
and the fellow in the video says "We build microtrenching equipment" (
Fab Rats is in Utah ) and I glimpse a bit of what looks like the MTC
logo and sure enough   MTC is on youtube...



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Re: [AFMUG] Fab Rats....

[Robert]

Starts at 5:03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrt78oczcwo


On 5/1/24 8:36 AM, Robert wrote:
Watching my youtubes this am and Fab Rats goes to pick up an airport 
tug and the fellow in the video says "We build microtrenching 
equipment" ( Fab Rats is in Utah ) and I glimpse a bit of what looks 
like the MTC logo and sure enough   MTC is on youtube...





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[AFMUG] Fab Rats....

[Robert]

Watching my youtubes this am and Fab Rats goes to pick up an airport tug 
and the fellow in the video says "We build microtrenching equipment" ( 
Fab Rats is in Utah ) and I glimpse a bit of what looks like the MTC 
logo and sure enough   MTC is on youtube...


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Re: [AFMUG] OT: East Utah fun

[Robert]

My old H.S. chemistry professor ( Dr. Welch ) kept a bottle of 
hydrofluoric acid under his desk in a wax bottle of unknown quality.  
That was an interesting removal...


On 4/29/24 8:59 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Pretty much in the middle of Salt Lake City.
The guy the lived there (had died recently I think) was a chemist at 
the University of Utah.
His wife found a spill of mercury and asked for help in safely 
removing it. As a result they found over 500 containers of chemicals 
and very very old dynamite.  Totally a no win situation.


You might have been able to soak it in diesel and built a small 
electric kiln over it to incinerate in place.  But monday morning 
quarterbacking.




Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
-Original Message- From: Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 8:13 AM
To: AFMUG
Subject: [AFMUG] OT: East Utah fun

FROM: News of the Weird

Boom!
In Holladay, Utah, authorities were summoned to a home on April 23 to
advise a homeowner on how to dispose of “a lot” of explosives, including
“ancient dynamite” that had been in the family for “generations and
generations.” Capt. Tony Barker of the Unified Fire Authority said the
collectors did not appear to have malicious intent. KUTV reported that
multiple agencies descended on the home, where it was determined that
they would have to conduct a controlled explosion.

Of course, that's just EAST Utah. Right Chuck?




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Re: [AFMUG] OT: East Utah fun

[Robert]

"Controlled Explosion"   Hopefully _after_ having been removed from the 
house


On 4/29/24 7:13 AM, Bill Prince wrote:

FROM: News of the Weird

Boom!
In Holladay, Utah, authorities were summoned to a home on April 23 to 
advise a homeowner on how to dispose of “a lot” of explosives, 
including “ancient dynamite” that had been in the family for 
“generations and generations.” Capt. Tony Barker of the Unified Fire 
Authority said the collectors did not appear to have malicious intent. 
KUTV reported that multiple agencies descended on the home, where it 
was determined that they would have to conduct a controlled explosion.


Of course, that's just EAST Utah. Right Chuck?




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Re: [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Govt funded fiber - Utopia

[Robert]

In a lot of the US fire stations aren't getting staffed because the 
firefighters are totally keeping the jobs staffed at levels that require 
massive overtime at 2x pay to spike their income for the purpose of 
maximizing retirement pay. And that's not a California specialty.   
Happening in NV and all across the other states.   And not just Fire 
Fighters, civil servants across the board.   Why many of the cities get 
into retirement dept that was unforcasted when the retirement levels 
were funded..


On 4/26/24 4:35 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
Fire stations here are failing.  They can't staff them.  Townships 
can't fund them so they're paying cities much higher rates per call.


On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 7:01 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

Everything’s political now, of course.

But he does have a point when he says “Government-owned broadband
networks cost millions of dollars and divert essential funding
away from services that really matter to the public — services
such as police and fire, roads, water and sewer.”

In the past, the government has undertaken vast programs at
taxpayer expense like rural electrification, the interstate
highway system, the space program.  Now apparently high speed
Internet is the thing of the moment that takes precedence over all
the other broken things that we might wish government to fix. I
sometimes wonder why Internet?  Maybe because it seems easy and
gives people the power to hand out billions of dollars.  Could
they cure cancer or get lead out of drinking water or fix all the
deteriorating bridges with something like a BEAD program?

Maybe they think broadband and AI and neural implants will lead to
a future where everyone is plugged into the network and doesn’t
need any of those other things. Maybe we’ll all be heads in jars
like in Futurama.

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2024 5:38 PM
*To:* Josh Luthman ; AnimalFarm
Microwave Users Group 
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com; John Brewer 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Govt funded fiber -
Utopia

I am surprised they have never broke even.

*From:*Josh Luthman

*Sent:*Friday, April 26, 2024 4:02 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Cc:*John Brewer ; ch...@go-mtc.com

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** Govt funded fiber - Utopia

Article:

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2024/04/19/government-internet-service-bad-for-taxpayers/

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 4:59 PM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

By John Dougall

For the Deseret News

Most Utahns probably agree that government should stick to essential
government services and stay out of enterprises that are better
performed by
the private sector.

Yet, across the country and right here in Utah, more and more
governments
are building government-owned internet networks, despite numerous
private-sector providers being available.

The number of government-owned networks is increasing by the day, and
taxpayers, not users, are often footing the bill. Government-owned
broadband
networks cost millions of dollars and divert essential funding
away from
services that really matter to the public — services such as
police and
fire, roads, water and sewer.

Two unfortunate examples of government-owned broadband networks
right here
in Utah are iProvo and UTOPIA.

In 2004, Provo launched iProvo to provide broadband internet
services to
homes and business. Provo reportedly bonded for $36.5 million to
bring
service to every home in the city and wrote off $5.4 million that
the city’s
telecommunications fund owed the Energy Department’s reserve fund
to finance
the costly deployment. After struggling to make the network
viable, iProvo
was sold in 2008. But its buyer failed to fulfill the terms of the
sale, and
iProvo reverted back to the city. In 2013, in a desperate attempt
to free
itself of the failed venture, the city ultimately sold iProvo to
Google for
$1.

Similarly, UTOPIA (Utah Telecommunications Open Infrastructure
Agency) was
launched to provide broadband internet services to a consortium of
cities.
But UTOPIA has failed to fulfill its promises for more than two
decades now.
The project, which started in 2002, was projected to be finished
in three to
four years. Fast forward to today, and it is still incomplete. Not
only is
UTOPIA incomplete, but the project has racked up $300 million
worth of debt.
And despite iProvo’s example of failure, UTOPIA continues to expand.

For years, UTOPIA consistently lost money, expecting taxpayers to
cover
those losses. In addition to this, the government-owned network
continues to
expand and pull other cities into this trap. What’s more egregious
is that

Re: [AFMUG] DC power supplies in parallel

[Robert]

This is what Tesla is recommending for the LFP based model 3 and model Y 
versions.   100% charge.  VS the 80% for the other chemistries.   Tesla 
is also going more in on LFP solutions and the latest investor 
presentation said their proprietary model "breakthrough" battery is no 
longer an emphasis because third party batteries are getting cheaper 
than they can make.


On 4/26/24 1:06 PM, TJ Trout wrote:
Storing a fully charged lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) battery has a 
minimal impact on its lifespan. In fact, it's recommended to fully 
charge LiFePO4 batteries before storing them for long periods of time. 
These batteries have a low self-discharge rate, typically losing 2% of 
their charge per month. However, fully charged lithium-ion batteries 
can be dangerous if left unused for long periods of time.


On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 12:43 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:




On Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 1:02 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

And I'm still using AGM batteries while all the cool kids are
using LiFePO4 with BCMs, so definitely don't listen to me.


The more I learn about lithium batteries, the more I feel that
lithium has relatively few advantages for standby applications.

My most recent knowledge acquisition is the fact that if you want
to shorten the life of a lithium battery the best way to do so is
to keep it fully charged.   The higher the average state of
charge,  the shorter the life of the battery, although admitted
there isn't much change in lifetime between about 20% and 80%.
 But keeping them at 100% isn't great.

If you want to store a lithium battery without charging,  it's
best to drop the charge below 80% then store.

In a standby application you really want to keep a battery at 100%
which shortens it's life greatly.  A better choice would be to
keep it at 80% max but then you have other issues, not to mention
the fact you now have to buy a bigger battery array.
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--
Thank you,

TJ Trout
Volt Broadband
209.480.3122 Cell

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Re: [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** Govt funded fiber - Utopia

[Robert]

Kinda makes you wonder what the actual return is on the MASSIVE $$ that 
the feds are dumping into broadband providers?   Anyone want to fill in 
actual numbers?


On 4/26/24 3:02 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
Article: 
https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2024/04/19/government-internet-service-bad-for-taxpayers/


On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 4:59 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


By John Dougall

For the Deseret News

Most Utahns probably agree that government should stick to essential
government services and stay out of enterprises that are better
performed by
the private sector.

Yet, across the country and right here in Utah, more and more
governments
are building government-owned internet networks, despite numerous
private-sector providers being available.

The number of government-owned networks is increasing by the day, and
taxpayers, not users, are often footing the bill. Government-owned
broadband
networks cost millions of dollars and divert essential funding
away from
services that really matter to the public — services such as
police and
fire, roads, water and sewer.

Two unfortunate examples of government-owned broadband networks
right here
in Utah are iProvo and UTOPIA.

In 2004, Provo launched iProvo to provide broadband internet
services to
homes and business. Provo reportedly bonded for $36.5 million to
bring
service to every home in the city and wrote off $5.4 million that
the city’s
telecommunications fund owed the Energy Department’s reserve fund
to finance
the costly deployment. After struggling to make the network
viable, iProvo
was sold in 2008. But its buyer failed to fulfill the terms of the
sale, and
iProvo reverted back to the city. In 2013, in a desperate attempt
to free
itself of the failed venture, the city ultimately sold iProvo to
Google for
$1.

Similarly, UTOPIA (Utah Telecommunications Open Infrastructure
Agency) was
launched to provide broadband internet services to a consortium of
cities.
But UTOPIA has failed to fulfill its promises for more than two
decades now.
The project, which started in 2002, was projected to be finished
in three to
four years. Fast forward to today, and it is still incomplete. Not
only is
UTOPIA incomplete, but the project has racked up $300 million
worth of debt.
And despite iProvo’s example of failure, UTOPIA continues to expand.

For years, UTOPIA consistently lost money, expecting taxpayers to
cover
those losses. In addition to this, the government-owned network
continues to
expand and pull other cities into this trap. What’s more egregious
is that
UTOPIA misrepresented its performance as it pitched cities on
buying into
the expansion fever. For example, UTOPIA once claimed the network
had “no
cost to taxpayers since 2009.” This statement was patently inaccurate.

As your watchdog, I help you to hold your government accountable.
My office
investigated this and other claims, then we wrote a letter
identifying these
inaccurate statements. We instructed UTOPIA to do the following:

•Discard or destroy marketing materials with misleading statements.

• Ensure future communications more accurately reflect the
dependence on
taxpayer support.

•Take steps to remedy the misrepresentations regarding the lack of
taxpayer
support to any individual or entity that received the inaccurate
information.

UTOPIA’s shortcomings do not stop there, however. Rather than
providing
internet access to the more than 40,000 homes and small businesses
that lack
internet access today, UTOPIA, like other government-owned
networks, builds
redundant networks that compete with existing private providers,
many who
are also regulated by the cities in which they operate.

Unfortunately, iProvo and UTOPIA are no different from other
government-owned fiber networks across the country, which fail
financially
about 90% of the time.

When taxpayer money is being diverted from critical services into pet
broadband projects, that money is not going where it is needed most.
Taxpayers expect government to maintain roads, provide safe
drinking water
and keep their communities safe. Money spent propping up broadband
services
costs taxpayers money, encumbered by decades of debt, and deprives
them of
important and sufficient government services they want and
deserve. Plus,
higher taxes burden families, many of whom are struggling today
just to
provide for themselves.

Government-owned broadband has done enough harm to taxpayers.
iProvo and
UTOPIA should be seen as an example for policymakers of what to
avoid.
Public officials across the country, and especially here in Utah,
should

Re: [AFMUG] now that's a big antenna

[Robert]

 Patrick Warburton



On 4/21/24 1:56 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

This? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0205873/

On Sun, Apr 21, 2024 at 1:06 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


“The Dish”
Great factual comedy that blends Apollo 11 and antennas.
*From:* Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Sunday, April 21, 2024 10:24 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* [AFMUG] now that's a big antenna

https://spectrum.ieee.org/apollo-era-antenna-voyager-2


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Re: [AFMUG] LiFePO4 question again

[Robert]

LifePowers have a BMS.   But most people power them with a LFP designed 
charger to get the power into them much faster than a regular power supply.


On 4/5/24 12:13 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
You will need a BMS unless the battery has one built in.  If it does, 
a regular telco rectifier will do the job.


-Original Message- From: Mark - Myakka Technologies via AF
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 10:58 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Subject: [AFMUG] LiFePO4 question again

I'm finding hard to pass up just getting a 100ah 48v LiFePO4 rackmount 
battery.  I have a new fiber system that will need a maximum of 3kw 
once it is maxed out over the years.  This seems like an easy and 
clean battery solution.


Question is how do I power the system from the AC side on a daily 
basis and keep the battery charged.  The normal rectifier way seems to 
be a bit lacking in LiFePO4 support.


I can get a EG4 Chargeverter 48V 100A Battery Charger that looks like 
it would do the job.  Not sure if this thing is designed to run 24/7 
at load or if it is designed for intermittent loads to just charge 
batteries.


Thoughts?

--

Thanks,
Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com





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Re: [AFMUG] OT 2038 Linux

[Robert]

i.e. you are raising your SEP field...

On 2/12/24 11:53 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


I’m not President or a Senator or Supreme Court Justice, so in 2038 I 
plan to be retired or dead.  It will be somebody else’s problem.


*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2024 1:02 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] OT 2038 Linux

"The latest time which can be represented like this is 03:14:07 UTC on 
January 19, 2038," said Zimmie. "Once the timer is incremented from 
this second, the value 'overflows' and goes from being a large 
positive number to being a large negative number. The next second this 
counter can represent is 20:45:52 UTC on December 13, 1901. This is 
called the Year 2038 Problem."



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Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

[Robert]

The last sentence is a key...    Think out of the box how to help out 
with that and you have a really good incentive for your company over 
others besides straight cash...


On 1/29/24 8:55 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
We do have a fully funded health plan.  We make them wait 6 months for 
eligibility.  Has not seemed to be an impediment to hiring.  Thanks 
everyone.  I think I will steer clear of published performance based 
bonuses but just give surprise bonuses now and then.  I could give a 
spiff based on the completion of certain machines but some of the 
teams have overlap and tracking that program could be difficult.  I 
will just crank up the pay a bit.  I am a bit below average for 
companies of my type but not for employers on average in my area.  We 
are about $19/hr company wide with some making as much as $24.  Still 
hard to run a family and pay a mortgage with that kind of pay.

Chuck McCown
McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503
435-830-4306 cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench-blades.com
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* Trey Scarborough
*Sent:* Monday, January 29, 2024 9:52 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

I have always found one of the best ways is to provide better 
benifits/perks. As others have said 401k match is a good one, but if 
that's not something most your employees would be interested in. Fully 
paid health insurance can be one, also send them to training or a 
tradeshow. Even welders like to go to a tradeshow and gawk at all the 
new equipment...


One of the best I found was catered lunches. We would have a day or 
two a week we would bring in food from a good restaurant or order some 
good steaks and grill them. It was also good as it got everyone together.


Another thing is give them a budget to go and buy whatever 
tools/equipment/etc that you can write off and let them keep it 
personally. Works great for labor workers and IT staff. The more 
mechanical inclined typically went out and buy nice tools and the 
others typically would get a laptop, or build a gaming rig.



On 1/28/24 12:16 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
My latest pivot a couple of years ago to microtrenching blades, 
adding grout machines, then microtrenching saw attachments and now to 
a specialized type of vacuum excavator has gone extremely well.  
Almost no software involved.  Just a little in a motion control PCB 
in the grout machine to control the hydrostatic transmission. This is 
by far my most profitable season I have ever had in 50 years of 
running some kind of hustle.  And those years of the stinger and 
other related antennas and hardware were not bad at all.  I am a bit 
more confident that these new “durable products” have more legs than 
the antennas that were radio specific.
But having been through wax and wane of business, economy and product 
cycles for many decades, I am always reticent to ratchet up pay.  I 
do give bonuses.  I will always live in fear of not meeting payroll.  
Only happened once about 30 years ago, but that is a bad deal.  And 
actually nobody was unpaid but I had to layoff everyone.  But I digress.
What would y’all suggest as a way to reward employees when things are 
going well?  I give COLA plus modest merit increases every 6 months.  
I could give substantial merit increases but that plays into my 
phobia of things getting tight again.  Maybe that is totally 
unfounded.  I know when things started going well for Henry Ford he 
doubled pay and things got even better for him.
I would like to do bonuses based on my bottom line income (I think), 
but how to distribute that evenly?  Should everyone get the same 
amount?  And how to relate that the size of the bonus is tied 
directly to how well the company is doing?  Or should I just give 
really nice raises this go around?  Or both?  I guess if things slow 
down we can always trim staff or let attrition do it for us.  I think 
you all can understand the reluctance to give raises as it is a one 
way street.  You really cannot cut pay.
I want employees to prosper and do better personally.  I wonder if my 
fears are justified.  I know some of you have worked for large 
companies at certain points in your life, how did they accomplish 
this.  I know some of you have really prospered with your WISP/ISP, 
curious how you approached the whole sharing the wealth thing.

Chuck McCown
McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503
435-830-4306 cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench-blades.com
www.terabitnetworks.com



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Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

[Robert]

People don't always know what is best for them.   But fully funding an 
IRA would be a way to funnel money to them without taxes that might be 
appreciated when they do their taxes..


On 1/28/24 6:09 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I would be a bit surprised if anyone that works on my shop floor would 
prefer that.  We only have 25 employees and they are mostly welders 
etc.  I wonder if any of them even have an IRA.

*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Sunday, January 28, 2024 7:53 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees
Fully fund IRAs?

On 1/28/24 5:18 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Thanks Ken,
No stock options.  I am slowly giving the company to a couple sons 
that are putting in the sweat equity.  Still not sure about 
production based bonuses.  Should everyone get the same amount?

*From:* Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Sunday, January 28, 2024 1:11 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

I worked for big companies in the 80’s and remember profit sharing 
and Christmas bonuses.  Then we had a period of startups with stock 
options as a huge part of compensation – the idea was you worked 80 
hour weeks for modest pay but if the company hit it big your options 
could be worth a lot.  I suspect some people hit the jackpot and a 
lot more got the shaft.


My sense is that employees today are mostly focused on the short 
term. They have bills to pay, they want to know what income they can 
count on, they probably don’t want to roll the dice on profit sharing 
or a bonus or stock options.  Also, Millennials and Gen XYZ I talk to 
seem to view employment as transactional, and they don’t necessarily 
identify with the company or the owners (thanks to companies like 
Amazon and owners like Bezos).


So while I don’t have any hard facts, my guess is you’re doing the 
right thing already.  If you’re inclined to tie compensation to 
company performance, I wouldn’t make it a large percentage, and I 
wouldn’t try to use it as an incentive for people to work insane 
hours or achieve impossible goals (like Elon Musk’s “extremely 
hardcore”).  And I’d make it fairly short term, like monthly or 
something, so employees aren’t making their families scrimp in hopes 
of a windfall at the end of the quarter or year.


If you do experience hard times, reduced hours might be a temporary 
solution at least for hourly employees. Realizing that with low 
unemployment, some of them might move elsewhere.


The good news is that any part of your business tied to fiber 
projects is likely to have at least 5 good years coming.


*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown 
via AF

*Sent:* Sunday, January 28, 2024 12:16 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] compensation for employees

My latest pivot a couple of years ago to microtrenching blades, 
adding grout machines, then microtrenching saw attachments and now to 
a specialized type of vacuum excavator has gone extremely well.  
Almost no software involved.  Just a little in a motion control PCB 
in the grout machine to control the hydrostatic transmission. This is 
by far my most profitable season I have ever had in 50 years of 
running some kind of hustle.  And those years of the stinger and 
other related antennas and hardware were not bad at all.  I am a bit 
more confident that these new “durable products” have more legs than 
the antennas that were radio specific.


But having been through wax and wane of business, economy and product 
cycles for many decades, I am always reticent to ratchet up pay.  I 
do give bonuses.  I will always live in fear of not meeting payroll.  
Only happened once about 30 years ago, but that is a bad deal.  And 
actually nobody was unpaid but I had to layoff everyone.  But I digress.


What would y’all suggest as a way to reward employees when things are 
going well?  I give COLA plus modest merit increases every 6 months.  
I could give substantial merit increases but that plays into my 
phobia of things getting tight again.  Maybe that is totally 
unfounded.  I know when things started going well for Henry Ford he 
doubled pay and things got even better for him.


I would like to do bonuses based on my bottom line income (I think), 
but how to distribute that evenly?  Should everyone get the same 
amount?  And how to relate that the size of the bonus is tied 
directly to how well the company is doing?  Or should I just give 
really nice raises this go around?  Or both?  I guess if things slow 
down we can always trim staff or let attrition do it for us.  I think 
you all can understand the reluctance to give raises as it is a one 
way street.  You really cannot cut pay.


I want employees to prosper and do better personally.  I wonder if my 
fears are justified.  I know some of you have worked for large 
companies at certain points in your life, how did they accomplish 
this.  I know some of you have really prospered

Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

[Robert]

Fully fund IRAs?

On 1/28/24 5:18 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Thanks Ken,
No stock options.  I am slowly giving the company to a couple sons 
that are putting in the sweat equity.  Still not sure about production 
based bonuses.  Should everyone get the same amount?

*From:* Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Sunday, January 28, 2024 1:11 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

I worked for big companies in the 80’s and remember profit sharing and 
Christmas bonuses. Then we had a period of startups with stock options 
as a huge part of compensation – the idea was you worked 80 hour weeks 
for modest pay but if the company hit it big your options could be 
worth a lot.  I suspect some people hit the jackpot and a lot more got 
the shaft.


My sense is that employees today are mostly focused on the short 
term.  They have bills to pay, they want to know what income they can 
count on, they probably don’t want to roll the dice on profit sharing 
or a bonus or stock options.  Also, Millennials and Gen XYZ I talk to 
seem to view employment as transactional, and they don’t necessarily 
identify with the company or the owners (thanks to companies like 
Amazon and owners like Bezos).


So while I don’t have any hard facts, my guess is you’re doing the 
right thing already.  If you’re inclined to tie compensation to 
company performance, I wouldn’t make it a large percentage, and I 
wouldn’t try to use it as an incentive for people to work insane hours 
or achieve impossible goals (like Elon Musk’s “extremely hardcore”).  
And I’d make it fairly short term, like monthly or something, so 
employees aren’t making their families scrimp in hopes of a windfall 
at the end of the quarter or year.


If you do experience hard times, reduced hours might be a temporary 
solution at least for hourly employees.  Realizing that with low 
unemployment, some of them might move elsewhere.


The good news is that any part of your business tied to fiber projects 
is likely to have at least 5 good years coming.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Sunday, January 28, 2024 12:16 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] compensation for employees

My latest pivot a couple of years ago to microtrenching blades, adding 
grout machines, then microtrenching saw attachments and now to a 
specialized type of vacuum excavator has gone extremely well.  Almost 
no software involved. Just a little in a motion control PCB in the 
grout machine to control the hydrostatic transmission.  This is by far 
my most profitable season I have ever had in 50 years of running some 
kind of hustle.  And those years of the stinger and other related 
antennas and hardware were not bad at all.  I am a bit more confident 
that these new “durable products” have more legs than the antennas 
that were radio specific.


But having been through wax and wane of business, economy and product 
cycles for many decades, I am always reticent to ratchet up pay.  I do 
give bonuses. I will always live in fear of not meeting payroll.  Only 
happened once about 30 years ago, but that is a bad deal.  And 
actually nobody was unpaid but I had to layoff everyone.  But I digress.


What would y’all suggest as a way to reward employees when things are 
going well?  I give COLA plus modest merit increases every 6 months.  
I could give substantial merit increases but that plays into my phobia 
of things getting tight again.  Maybe that is totally unfounded.  I 
know when things started going well for Henry Ford he doubled pay and 
things got even better for him.


I would like to do bonuses based on my bottom line income (I think), 
but how to distribute that evenly?  Should everyone get the same 
amount? And how to relate that the size of the bonus is tied directly 
to how well the company is doing? Or should I just give really nice 
raises this go around?  Or both?  I guess if things slow down we can 
always trim staff or let attrition do it for us.  I think you all can 
understand the reluctance to give raises as it is a one way street.  
You really cannot cut pay.


I want employees to prosper and do better personally. I wonder if my 
fears are justified.  I know some of you have worked for large 
companies at certain points in your life, how did they accomplish 
this.  I know some of you have really prospered with your WISP/ISP, 
curious how you approached the whole sharing the wealth thing.


Chuck McCown
McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503
435-830-4306 cell
www.mccowntech.com 
www.microtrench-blades.com 
www.terabitnetworks.com 


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Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

[Robert]

That is what I've always done and got told I'm wrong   LOL

On 1/9/24 7:17 AM, Brough Turner - netBlazr wrote:
"Ring, Ridge, Red, Right" was the equivalence in the days when 
Telephone Operator Cord Boards had tip/ring/sleeve connectors on the 
cords.  So Ridge = Red.


Thanks
Brough

*From:* AF  on behalf of Robert 


*Sent:* Monday, January 8, 2024 10:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse
But what about Low voltage cable... Is smooth hot or cold or ridged hot
or cold?  So many choices... LOL..

On 1/8/24 9:39 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
> I concur with the wire color problem.
>
> * My current employer pays big bucks to a low voltage guy who wires 
up our

> sites.  His work is absolutely beautiful.  It's like friggin artwork.
> He uses black for return (+) and green for ground. Then since most 
of our
> equipment has dual power supplies he uses red and blue for the "A" 
hot and
> "B" hot.  I assume his employer trained him that way for a reason 
and that's

> probably common.
>
> * I was taught in childhood that red is positive, so that's what I have
> always done.  I'm not philosophically opposed to the idea that red 
is "hot",

> but that's just now how I learned it.
>
> * 
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fztlabels.com%2Fblogs%2Fnews%2Fdc-power-circuit-wiring-color-codes=05%7C02%7Cbrough%40netblazr.com%7C6c42b49a25dd404e07d908dc1099eb1a%7C06a97f73bf7b45a688f6a3a7bc5f56c7%7C0%7C0%7C638403500474986051%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=NwfihmgJY1P%2FJX8FZ9QQK%2Fbx95TQIV3AqoM5Wowvai0%3D=0 
<https://ztlabels.com/blogs/news/dc-power-circuit-wiring-color-codes>

> This site advises that for 2-wire DC with positive ground is white for
> positive and black for negative.  Someone apparently thinks that's 
the right
> way.  The same site points out that the only color called out 
specifically
> in the NEC is green or green/yellow for ground. Everything else is 
just the

> convention people landed on.
>
> Out in the wild you might see anything so there is and will always be a
> multi-meter in my everyday toolkit.
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2024 12:01 PM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse
>
> What I can never decide on is wire colors. Especially when using 
red/black

> zipcord or tray cable.  People expect red to be +, but they also expect
> black to be ground (except electricians who expect black to be hot 
and white

> to be neutral and green or green/yellow to be ground).  And how to
> differentiate battery wiring from load wiring.  I have not found an 
ideal

> solution other than labels.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
> Sent: Monday, January 8, 2024 10:45 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse
>
> Yes. -48VDC means the negative side is hot, and the positive side is 
ground

> (or return).
>
> You can mix +48VDC and -48VDC if you know what you're doing. It helps a
> bunch if the equipment floats logic ground. You need to check to see 
if your

> equipment isolates logic from the supply voltage.
>
> Yes. Batteries can be grounded either way. They don't care.
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 1/8/2024 8:25 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:
>> I know we have been though this many times and I thought I 
understood it.

>>
>> -48VDC is the Negative side being HOT, correct?
>>
>> It is BAD to try to mix -48VDC and 48VDC
>>
>> There is no such thing as a -48V battery.  A battery is a battery,
> correct?
>> How about the ICT Platinum power supplies.  They show as 48VDC, can
>> they
> be used on -48VDC equipment?
>> I remember Check saying something about a way to test to see if a
>> piece of
> equipment that is Neg 48VDC is truly grounded as Neg 48VDC.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Thanks,
>>    Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com <mailto:m...@mailmt.com>
>>
>> Myakka Communications
>> 
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.myakka.com%2F=05%7C02%7Cbrough%40netblazr.com%7C6c42b49a25dd404e07d908dc1099eb1a%7C06a97f73bf7b45a688f6a3a7bc5f56c7%7C0%7C0%7C638403500474986051%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=FlUnCHHmZ9Qohes%2BwvKB9GMSitPQuiBOFVDDBFJOdNw%3D=0 
<http://www.myakka.com/>

>>
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> 
https://nam10.safeli

Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

[Robert]

But what about Low voltage cable...  Is smooth hot or cold or ridged hot 
or cold?  So many choices... LOL..


On 1/8/24 9:39 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

I concur with the wire color problem.

* My current employer pays big bucks to a low voltage guy who wires up our
sites.  His work is absolutely beautiful.  It's like friggin artwork.
He uses black for return (+) and green for ground.  Then since most of our
equipment has dual power supplies he uses red and blue for the "A" hot and
"B" hot.  I assume his employer trained him that way for a reason and that's
probably common.

* I was taught in childhood that red is positive, so that's what I have
always done.  I'm not philosophically opposed to the idea that red is "hot",
but that's just now how I learned it.

* https://ztlabels.com/blogs/news/dc-power-circuit-wiring-color-codes
This site advises that for 2-wire DC with positive ground is white for
positive and black for negative.  Someone apparently thinks that's the right
way.  The same site points out that the only color called out specifically
in the NEC is green or green/yellow for ground.  Everything else is just the
convention people landed on.

Out in the wild you might see anything so there is and will always be a
multi-meter in my everyday toolkit.

-Adam



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2024 12:01 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

What I can never decide on is wire colors.  Especially when using red/black
zipcord or tray cable.  People expect red to be +, but they also expect
black to be ground (except electricians who expect black to be hot and white
to be neutral and green or green/yellow to be ground).  And how to
differentiate battery wiring from load wiring.  I have not found an ideal
solution other than labels.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, January 8, 2024 10:45 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

Yes. -48VDC means the negative side is hot, and the positive side is ground
(or return).

You can mix +48VDC and -48VDC if you know what you're doing. It helps a
bunch if the equipment floats logic ground. You need to check to see if your
equipment isolates logic from the supply voltage.

Yes. Batteries can be grounded either way. They don't care.

bp


On 1/8/2024 8:25 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:

I know we have been though this many times and I thought I understood it.

-48VDC is the Negative side being HOT, correct?

It is BAD to try to mix -48VDC and 48VDC

There is no such thing as a -48V battery.  A battery is a battery,

correct?

How about the ICT Platinum power supplies.  They show as 48VDC, can
they

be used on -48VDC equipment?

I remember Check saying something about a way to test to see if a
piece of

equipment that is Neg 48VDC is truly grounded as Neg 48VDC.


--

Thanks,
   Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com



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Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

[Robert]

That is my understanding too.  But one point I would make is that the 
discharge from the BMS is pretty low compared to the size of the 
batteries we are talking about.   I was told by a techy at signature 
solar that for a rack mount battery to go into storage, it should be 
charged between 1/2 and 2/3 full and it would be good for 2 years 
without discharging too much.  That is with the switches in the off 
position, which does shut down most of the BMS functions but is not a 
disabled bms.


On 1/5/24 3:13 PM, Peter Kranz via AF wrote:


If you want to do lifepo4 right, here are the key points (In my opinion).

 1. After a discharge, a boost charge at a voltage of around
3.5-3.65V/cell should be applied to recharge the battery, until
you reach termination charge current.

 2. After boost charge is complete, you may want to hold voltage for a
period of time to allow the BMS to top balance the cells. Your BMS
will likely be programmed to top balance above 3.4V/cell. I like
to hold the pack voltage at just above 3.4V/cell for as long as it
takes for this top balance to complete.

 3. After the top balance is complete you should switch to a float
charge of 3.375V/cell for maximum lifespan. Holding voltage higher
in float can lead to pack swelling and lower lifespan.

 4. Batteries should not be charged in any way at or below freezing
temperatures, discharging is ok.

 5. Batteries not being used (spares) should have the BMS disabled to
avoid BMS induced self discharging.

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com 
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com 


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Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

[Robert]

Oh, and most BMS in LFP batteries report state of charge numbers that 
are calibrated via full charge/discharge cycles not by absolute voltage 
measurements. So you get different batteries reporting different states 
of charge unless they are all top and bottom balanced together...


Signature solar has had tons of customer support issues because of this 
and what customers see on the different panels making them think their 
batteries are much less charged than they are.   The standard response 
is fully discharge them all then fully charge them.  This can be an 
issue in production.    With Solar assistant you can look into the 
values for each cell in each battery to know what's going on with your 
server rack batteries.


On 1/4/24 3:49 PM, Robert wrote:
But LFP batteries all have BMS control with built in LVD.   Most LFP 
batteries BMS will need a "kick-start" if they go into LVD.   The 
charger I shared earlier has a LVD kick mode for the first charging mode.


On 1/4/24 1:33 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
The worst case scenario is when the power comes back on after an 
extended outage.  So the batts are going to present a heavy load plus 
all your other loads.
I always doubled what I needed to run the loads by themselves and 
made sure the current limiting would not exceed safe charging currents.
If the batts went too low, the voltage may not come back to 
operational level until they have charged a bit. If you have a LVD on 
the loads that will speed things up, assuming the LVD will reconnect, 
but it must have enough hysteresis because when the loads attach the 
voltage will drop again and if you don’t have enough hysteresis it 
will oscillate and probably do ungood things to the loads.

That is why I quit using LVDs.
*From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
*Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2024 2:27 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

Let me see if I understand this. I get an AC/DC 48V power supply.  We 
have used DuraComm in the past.  I wire the power supply directly to 
the LFP battery pack and wire the power supply directly to the 48V 
equipment.  Does the LFP have logic in it to regulate the charging?


My guess is my power supply has to be rated higher than my equipment 
demand by a few AMPs so it can charge batteries and run equipment.  
Is there some way to limit charging AMPs on battery pack so it 
doesn't over load the power supply?


--

Best regards,

Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications

www.Myakka.com <https://www.Myakka.com>

--

Thursday, January 4, 2024, 3:57:48 PM, you wrote:

I was talking about connecting the LFP pack straight to a current
limiting power supply and not using a battery charger.
On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 2:43 PM  wrote:

“the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's rated charge
current”

You don’t have to worry about that one.  The charger won’t
draw more current than what is being consumed to charge the
batteries.  I’d argue you should oversize the max current. 
If the power supply can’t supply the current the chargers are
demanding then it’ll do whatever it’s over current fault
condition is….which might be current limiting, or shutting
down and waiting for you to power cycle.  Oversize it so you
can supply the charger whatever it wants and you aren’t at
risk of over heating, tripping, or other badness.

PSU’s often get de-rated for temperature, and sometimes the
max current on the sticker is only for transient peak current
rather than continuous current.  Make it bigger so it meets
all the demand on it and nothing bad happens even in
sub-optimal conditions.

-Adam

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *castarritt
*Sent:* Thursday, January 04, 2024 11:28 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

I've also thought about trying just some basic Meanwell AC/DC
supplies with LFP packs instead of a fancy ICT or other
charger.  As long as I am using a power supply that will sag
voltage instead of trip offline when max current is reached,
the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's rated charge
current, and I can set the supply's voltage to the
appropriate value, I don't see why I need anything more.  The
LFP pack's BMS already has LVD, and we aren't using fancy
multi stage charge profiles with boost voltage on lithium
packs.  Am I missing something here?  So far, bossman has
preferred just playing it safe and paying for the ICT shelves
we know work, so I haven't got to try it yet.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 10:17 AM castarritt
 wrote:

We also use ICT and have been running them with both ISP
Supplies and Power Storage Solutions LFP packs without

Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

[Robert]

Some chargers will behave...

On 1/4/24 3:34 PM, TJ Trout wrote:

Chargers aren't designed to have a linear load (wisp) and will misbehave

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024, 3:12 PM Robert  wrote:

I will look when I get back in the office, but it was similar to
this one:


https://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/lithium-battery-chargers-24v-10a-lifepo4-lfp-intelligent

I spent a bunch on the signature solar chargers but they are way
to finicky about deciding to turn on...

On 1/4/24 12:05 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:


Robert,

Very interesting.  The Solar Assistant looks promising.  The rack
batteries from Solar Rack are some I've been looking at. I'm in
FL so low tempetures should not be an issue.  The missing piece
is the charger. What are you using to keep these charged up.


--

Best regards,

 Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com <mailto:m...@mailmt.com>


Myakka Communications

www.Myakka.com <https://www.Myakka.com>


--


Thursday, January 4, 2024, 12:07:43 PM, you wrote:


That's the advantage of LFP.   With the addition of one
component, solar assistant ( https://solar-assistant.io/ ) on
the signature solar rack batteries, you can know exactly
where the BMS is for each battery and you know your status
worldwide.
      There is a little learning curve to set the dip
switches and get the right components to connect the
monitoring cables up to the solar assistant.   But there
isn't a need to set up a whole lead acid style charger to
condition the batteries.
  Set points on your charger are the only thing you need
or go with an LFP charger like the one from Signature solar
that just works.
  Note that I have failed so far to get 12 volt LFP
batteries with heaters in series to make 24volts to play
correctly together.  The heaters confuse the smarter chargers
and you end up with the batteries out of balance.
  With Lithium batteries and massive charging, like a big
rack of 400 AH 12 volters, you need to connect the positive
to the buss bar at one end of the stack and the negative to
the other buss bar and the other end of the rack to get the
batteries in the most even state of charge.

On 1/4/24 8:27 AM, castarritt wrote:

I've also thought about trying just some basic Meanwell
AC/DC supplies with LFP packs instead of a fancy ICT or
other charger.  As long as I am using a power supply that
will sag voltage instead of trip offline when max current is
reached, the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's rated
charge current, and I can set the supply's voltage to the
appropriate value, I don't see why I need anything more. 
The LFP pack's BMS already has LVD, and we aren't using
fancy multi stage charge profiles with boost voltage on
lithium packs.  Am I missing something here?  So far,
bossman has preferred just playing it safe and paying for
the ICT shelves we know work, so I haven't got to try it yet.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 10:17 AM castarritt
 wrote:

We also use ICT and have been running them with both ISP
Supplies and Power Storage Solutions LFP packs without
any problems.  The only downside is that the ICT shelf
can't read the state of charge or give your an estimated
runtime remaining with lithium batteries.  I understand
they won't have a super accurate reading on those
parameters without communicating with the BMS, but I
wish they could at least calculate AH in and out vs set
AH capacity to give a rough estimate.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 9:49 AM Gino A. Villarini
 wrote:

We are having great success with signature solar
units and ICT rectifiers.




<https://aeronetpr.com>   *Gino Villarini*
Founder / President
@GVillarini
787.273.4143 |
<https://www.inc.com/profile/aeronet>
<https://www.facebook.com/aeronetpr>
<https://www.instagram.com/aeronetpr/>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/aeronet-broadband-corp>
<https://twitter.com/aeronetpr>
<https://www.youtube.com/user/AeroNetPR>
<https://wa.me/17872734144>
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, PR 00968
AeroNet-dula-network-access.jpg
<https://store.homefi.pr/>

*From: *AF  on behalf of
Mark - Myakka Technologies 
*Date: *Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM
  

Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

[Robert]

But LFP batteries all have BMS control with built in LVD.   Most LFP 
batteries BMS will need a "kick-start" if they go into LVD.   The 
charger I shared earlier has a LVD kick mode for the first charging mode.


On 1/4/24 1:33 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
The worst case scenario is when the power comes back on after an 
extended outage.  So the batts are going to present a heavy load plus 
all your other loads.
I always doubled what I needed to run the loads by themselves and made 
sure the current limiting would not exceed safe charging currents.
If the batts went too low, the voltage may not come back to 
operational level until they have charged a bit.  If you have a LVD on 
the loads that will speed things up, assuming the LVD will reconnect, 
but it must have enough hysteresis because when the loads attach the 
voltage will drop again and if you don’t have enough hysteresis it 
will oscillate and probably do ungood things to the loads.

That is why I quit using LVDs.
*From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
*Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2024 2:27 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

Let me see if I understand this. I get an AC/DC 48V power supply.  We 
have used DuraComm in the past.  I wire the power supply directly to 
the LFP battery pack and wire the power supply directly to the 48V 
equipment.  Does the LFP have logic in it to regulate the charging?


My guess is my power supply has to be rated higher than my equipment 
demand by a few AMPs so it can charge batteries and run equipment.  Is 
there some way to limit charging AMPs on battery pack so it doesn't 
over load the power supply?


--

Best regards,

Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications

www.Myakka.com 

--

Thursday, January 4, 2024, 3:57:48 PM, you wrote:

I was talking about connecting the LFP pack straight to a current
limiting power supply and not using a battery charger.
On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 2:43 PM  wrote:

“the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's rated charge
current”

You don’t have to worry about that one.  The charger won’t
draw more current than what is being consumed to charge the
batteries.  I’d argue you should oversize the max current.  If
the power supply can’t supply the current the chargers are
demanding then it’ll do whatever it’s over current fault
condition is….which might be current limiting, or shutting
down and waiting for you to power cycle.  Oversize it so you
can supply the charger whatever it wants and you aren’t at
risk of over heating, tripping, or other badness.

PSU’s often get de-rated for temperature, and sometimes the
max current on the sticker is only for transient peak current
rather than continuous current.  Make it bigger so it meets
all the demand on it and nothing bad happens even in
sub-optimal conditions.

-Adam

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *castarritt
*Sent:* Thursday, January 04, 2024 11:28 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

I've also thought about trying just some basic Meanwell AC/DC
supplies with LFP packs instead of a fancy ICT or other
charger.  As long as I am using a power supply that will sag
voltage instead of trip offline when max current is reached,
the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's rated charge
current, and I can set the supply's voltage to the appropriate
value, I don't see why I need anything more.  The LFP pack's
BMS already has LVD, and we aren't using fancy multi stage
charge profiles with boost voltage on lithium packs.  Am I
missing something here?  So far, bossman has preferred just
playing it safe and paying for the ICT shelves we know work,
so I haven't got to try it yet.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 10:17 AM castarritt
 wrote:

We also use ICT and have been running them with both ISP
Supplies and Power Storage Solutions LFP packs without any
problems.  The only downside is that the ICT shelf can't
read the state of charge or give your an estimated runtime
remaining with lithium batteries.  I understand they won't
have a super accurate reading on those parameters without
communicating with the BMS, but I wish they could at least
calculate AH in and out vs set AH capacity to give a rough
estimate.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 9:49 AM Gino A. Villarini
 wrote:

We are having great success with signature solar units
and ICT rectifiers.





*Gino Villarini*
Founder / President

Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

[Robert Andrews]

Not all lithium is the same...  Tesla has careful temperature controls 
to manage their packs.  And are subject to thermal runaway.  LFP 
batteries ( I can't say completely ) are not so subject to thermal 
runaway.  Running them inside a house is much safer than any other 
Lithium chemistry.


 I have a 24v 400 AH pack running power for my server rack, which all 
run with 24v power supplies.   Inside my office.  Not worried much about 
it as long as nobody shorts it out behind the fuses.


Other chemistries are what make all the news, such as those in electric 
bikes, scooters, hoverboards, specially when someone leaves them on a 
charger in a garage when the temperatures get out of control and the BMS 
doesn't have any temperature controls on charging.


When you look at LFP batteries, unless the environment is well under 
control, you need to make sure that the battery has both high and LOW 
temperature protection.  Your shelter gets below 32 degrees because the 
power went off, the batteries go below freezing and the power comes back 
on without the shelter warming up and the charger goes on.   Your 
batteries will be toast...



On 1/4/24 09:12, Ken Hohhof wrote:

I know lead acid batteries have their safety issues, what about lithium?

With the Tesla Megapacks, I think fire departments just let them burn 
themselves out and flood adjacent ones with water to keep the fire from 
spreading.  Are there any building code restrictions against putting 
them in office buildings or data centers?  In general I would assume a 
stationary battery is less likely to catch fire compared to a Tesla car 
which can hit other objects while going 100 mph.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2024 11:04 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

Just the joy of handling lighter batts make lithium well worth it.  Not 
to mention all the other positive attributes.


*From:*castarritt

*Sent:*Thursday, January 4, 2024 9:27 AM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

I've also thought about trying just some basic Meanwell AC/DC supplies 
with LFP packs instead of a fancy ICT or other charger.  As long as I am 
using a power supply that will sag voltage instead of trip offline when 
max current is reached, the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's 
rated charge current, and I can set the supply's voltage to the 
appropriate value, I don't see why I need anything more.  The LFP pack's 
BMS already has LVD, and we aren't using fancy multi stage charge 
profiles with boost voltage on lithium packs.  Am I missing something 
here?  So far, bossman has preferred just playing it safe and paying for 
the ICT shelves we know work, so I haven't got to try it yet.


On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 10:17 AM castarritt > wrote:


We also use ICT and have been running them with both ISP Supplies
and Power Storage Solutions LFP packs without any problems.  The
only downside is that the ICT shelf can't read the state of charge
or give your an estimated runtime remaining with lithium batteries. 
I understand they won't have a super accurate reading on those

parameters without communicating with the BMS, but I wish they could
at least calculate AH in and out vs set AH capacity to give a rough
estimate.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 9:49 AM Gino A. Villarini mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>> wrote:

We are having great success with signature solar units and ICT
rectifiers.





*Gino Villarini*
Founder / President
@GVillarini
787.273.4143 |



























Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, PR 00968

AeroNet-dula-network-access.jpg 

*From: *AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on behalf of Mark - Myakka
Technologies mailto:m...@mailmt.com>>
*Date: *Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM
*To: *AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

I'm starting to get flashbacks for the last time I did this.  It
wasn't a pleasant experience.  Felt I was oversold un-needed
over priced options.  Trying to be more careful this time.

Looking at the LifePO4 stuff and finding a bunch of rack mount
batteries, but they all seem to be China made.  Can anyone
recommend a 

Re: [AFMUG] RedHawk-P250i-Solid-Oxide-Fuel-Cells-GEN4-WEB.pdf

[Robert]

Cha-ching...   Wonder what price the 3Khr stack replacement is...?

On 12/11/23 8:23 AM, Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi] wrote:


Any ideas on pricing?

Jim Bouse

Owner

Brazos WiFi

979-999-7000

j...@brazoswifi.com 

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Monday, December 11, 2023 10:17 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] RedHawk-P250i-Solid-Oxide-Fuel-Cells-GEN4-WEB.pdf


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Re: [AFMUG] Modbus

[Robert]

There are modbus libraries in at least "C" to read devices...  I read 
the modbus info from our morningstar controllers...


On 10/26/23 1:08 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

Yes, and no.

The modbus protocol defines how to move data between two devices.  
However, the contents of the data being passed is vendor-defined and 
there aren't any industry standards I'm aware of (although it wouldn't 
surprise me if there were).


Every vendor that produces a modbus-capable device usually publishes 
some sort of guide to the modbus registers for each device.   For 
instance, a quick google search turned up this document:


https://www.vertiv.com/4ac5f2/globalassets/products/monitoring-control-and-management/monitoring/modbus-protocol-for-bdsu-reference-guide.pdf

"modbus register map" or "modbus communication guide" or simply 
"modbus" when added to your vendor or product name often will turn up 
the right document.


Just FYI, A couple of years ago, I would have suggested you provide me 
with the vendor of the equipment, and I'd make you a firmware load for 
the sitemonitor serial module to be able to read this, but that 
codebase needs to be re-written to support the base 3.   At some point 
in the future I'm going to resume doing those requests in which case 
you'd end up with a module which pulls data from this device.  
 Doesn't help you right now though.






On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:25 AM  wrote:

Is it likely that AC meters for monitoring circuits or subpanels
have a standard message format?


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark Radabaugh
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 10:52 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Modbus

Modbus is an ancient serial protocol to pass values back and
forth.   It’s very open but also somewhat vendor specific.  You
can send any message you like from A <->B but the two devices have
to know what the specific message means.  Various industries have
defined the message content but I would be somewhat surprised if a
Vertiv rectifier knows what to do with the information from a meter.

Tons of information online, and it’s not a hard protocol to code
for.   Used to do it in BASIC years ago.     There are two
protocols - MODBUS and MODBUS RTU.   The RTU protocol is much more
difficult to work with due to timing requirements, MODBUS itself
is just standard serial at a baud rate and timing of responses is
not critical at all.

Mark




> On Oct 26, 2023, at 7:38 AM, Adam Moffett 
wrote:
>
> I've never used modbus.  I'm looking at AC usage meters that
support modbus over RS-485.   And the controller on my Vertiv
rectifier says this in the manual:
>
> "e) Modbus Protocol:  The NCU can communicate with an AC Meter
using the Modbus protocol."
>
> and that's literally all it says.  Is this something
standardized where I can expect any modbus capable AC meter to
work the same?  Is this plug and play or would I have to learn yet
another discipline?
>
> If it's not an easy answer I can take it to Vertiv tech
support.  Just wondering if this group magically has the answer.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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- Forrest

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Re: [AFMUG] Got paid

[Robert Andrews]

Did you pull the comments and review?

On 10/24/23 11:53, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
A prime contractor has owed me about $15K for 6 months.  Totally dogging 
me.
They showed up in my FB feed crowing about a big job they had just 
completed.  So I started making snarky comments on their posts.  I also 
gave them a bad review and commented that they don’t pay their subs. The 
owner of the company called me and settled about 15 minutes after 
posting the review.

A whole lot cheaper than attorneys.



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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Home solar

[Robert]

For off-grid or grid tied, the new eg4 18K and 13Kw battery ( heated ) 
for 10K is probably the first of what I consider is 4th generation solar 
systems.  First system that is truly integrated, turn key solar.  No 
piece of this, piece of that, this special settings, that special 
firmware.   Connect around 6 wires, 9 if on-grid, and off to the races 
you go!


On 10/4/23 5:44 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


Thanks for the tip!

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *TJ Trout
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 04, 2023 4:55 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: Home solar

check signature solar, $0.25/w with free shipping I believe, also the 
inverters and batteries are a fraction of the cost you mentioned


On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 1:22 AM  wrote:

I’m contemplating solar at home.

I’m seeing $0.60/watt here if you’re buying qty 10 of 550W
panels.  Is that a good price these days?

https://sungoldpower.com/collections/monocrystalline-solar-panel

I haven’t looked at panels in some years, but that sounds almost
/too/ low.  Are they going to murder me with the shipping cost?

Same site sells a 6000W MPPT inverter/charger with optional
battery connection for $1600.  And a wall mounted 5.1 KWh LifePo4
battery for about $1700.

Seems like I could get 10x 550W panels, the inverter, and a
battery for a little under $6600 before shipping. NY has suspended
sales tax on solar power so no sales tax.  I have not added up
wire, mounting hardware, or other ancillary things, but the big
ticket items look pretty dang reasonable.  It should produce about
$1000/year worth of electricity (based on a website telling me
3.79 average peak sun hours per day in NY).  That seems worth it
even with no incentives, but there’s also a federal tax credit and
some state level incentives too.

…and NY is ranked 47^th out of the 50 states for solar
production.  So it’s better for most of you.

Have we crossed a threshold where it’s become stupid NOT to do solar?

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Thank you,

TJ Trout

Volt Broadband

209.480.3122 Cell


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Re: [AFMUG] who caves first? charter? disney?

[Robert]

Seems like it will be a reason to increase basic internet rates... a lot...

On 9/6/23 7:49 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:
Talking heads are making it out to be a big deal.  They'll both lose a 
lot of money.  Charter may not survive

pay tv may not survive
my take?  per 1,000 facebook posts here last Saturday as SEC football 
kicked off, they're all dropping whatever
charter they had left and going to youtube tv.  meaning it's all being 
dumped on our networks (ok, no worries).
disney isn't going to lose that revenue, now it's just coming in from 
a different pay-tv provider.
so i see charter being the big loser. Those SEC football fans are 
going to find a way to get the feed.

Seems youtube tv is now getting their money - - - if they weren't before.

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Re: [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some questions

[Robert]

Lead acid is still the go to for combustion vehicles and low 
temperatures without grid to heat.  That might change but for now they 
is still plenty of market.   That said, when the vendors for LFP decide 
to change the BMSs to do what is needed and the lower temp chemistries 
are worked out, yes, lead acid will go away.   If lithium Titanate 
becomes economical that will destroy lead acid...


On 9/5/23 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I have had little lithium experience to date but I think the answer to 
all of your questions is YES.
The solar guys have been quoting deals like this: 305ah 3.2 Grade B 
cell ($89) x 32 = $2,848 for 31kwh, 610ah, 51.2v 16s2p configuration 
for a 48v system
That is 9 cents per watt hour.  Half the cost of lead acid, will do 
many more cycles.  Much lighter.  Much smaller.  I think that you 
should sell your stock in the lead acid battery factories.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* Brough Turner - netBlazr
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 5, 2023 5:38 AM
*To:* Chuck McCown via AF
*Cc:* Brough Turner
*Subject:* [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some 
questions
I understand LiPoFe is preferable to Li-ion (longer life, less chance 
of fire).  Is this correct?


Can the BMS compensate for a for lead-acid UPS's charging profile?
Is there a battery with a BMS that can be monitored via a network 
connection.

Any recommendations for where to buy batteries in pallet-level quantities?

Thanks,
Brough


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Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

I keep a lookout for dead freezers on facebook and other local sales 
channels...


On 8/17/23 18:20, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
If the batteries were in a tight, very well insulated container, keeping 
them warm will take very little energy.  Think of a giant dewar box. 
Once they are at temp they should hold it.  And discharge as well as 
charge will cause them to heat.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 5:25 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
Yeah... for on-grid backup power, running heaters shouldn't be a big 
problem, but off-grid is a different animal. Warming the batteries up 
enough to charge could take a lot of power.
All the lifepo4 batteries I've looked at list the minimum discharge 
temperature at -20C, which isn't terrible, but they need to be at least 
0C to charge. The discharge temperature isn't hard cut-off where it 
won't work or will wreck the batteries sort of thing, as far as I can 
tell, but the charging temperature is.
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 6:02 PM Robert Andrews  
wrote:


For off grid, it also has to have heaters.  Not being able to charge is
just as crippling if your site never gets above freezing long enough to
charge the batteries in the winter.   Getting the batteries heated JUST
off the solar output ( not off of grid power ) is tricky and I am not
convinced that anything less than an 8K solar array is going to keep a
LFP site with any real draw happy over a winter.   That's a killer...

On 8/17/23 13:58, Brian Webster wrote:
 > The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when
charge
 > so as not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The
LiTime
 > batteries now have low temp disconnect in their internal battery
BMS.
 > Their prices are very good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries
more than
 > justifies the slightly added cost for the battery. If the
temperature
 > does not stay below the disconnect temp for longer than you have run
 > time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo batteries give you full
 > capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. They are
a lot
 > lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery
count (and
 > overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the
 > charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries
 > that the panels produce. This should get the battery up to or
closer to
 > the full voltage sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off
the power
 > from the panels for a longer period of time as well. This of course
 > stretches your battery capacity too. When you can push full current
 > through the charger to the batteries, even short periods of sun
can get
 > your battery charged or partially charged faster than the charging
 > profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.
 >
 > Thank you,
 >
 > Brian Webster
 >
 > *From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew
Howard
 > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
 > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
 >
 > Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to
lithiums.
 > I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's
 > going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the
minimum
 > charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going
to be
 > below for a good part of the year.
 >
 > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  <mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 >
 > Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost"
the same
 > price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less
than half
 > the space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long.
There
 > is the issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need
help for
 > extremely cold environments.
 >
 > bp
 >
 > 
 >
 > On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com
 > <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 > Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
 >
 > Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
 > the $/Wh to buy Lithium.
 >
 > *From:* AF 
 > <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
 > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
 > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
 > <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
 > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
 >
 >

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

For off grid, it also has to have heaters.  Not being able to charge is 
just as crippling if your site never gets above freezing long enough to 
charge the batteries in the winter.   Getting the batteries heated JUST 
off the solar output ( not off of grid power ) is tricky and I am not 
convinced that anything less than an 8K solar array is going to keep a 
LFP site with any real draw happy over a winter.   That's a killer...


On 8/17/23 13:58, Brian Webster wrote:
The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge 
so as not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime 
batteries now have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS. 
Their prices are very good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than 
justifies the slightly added cost for the battery. If the temperature 
does not stay below the disconnect temp for longer than you have run 
time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo batteries give you full 
capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. They are a lot 
lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery count (and 
overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the 
charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries 
that the panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to 
the full voltage sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power 
from the panels for a longer period of time as well. This of course 
stretches your battery capacity too. When you can push full current 
through the charger to the batteries, even short periods of sun can get 
your battery charged or partially charged faster than the charging 
profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.


Thank you,

Brian Webster

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. 
I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's 
going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum 
charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be 
below for a good part of the year.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince > wrote:


Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half
the space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There
is the issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for
extremely cold environments.

bp



On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com
 wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
the $/Wh to buy Lithium.

*From:* AF 
 *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would be cheaper
long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and
the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is
required, which means you need more power.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building
for a tiny load does make the costs easier.  But if you
wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or anything else you
can’t do it without growing the whole power system
proportionally.

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end
hardware now is using a lot of signal processing either to
reassemble useful data out of garbage or for beam steering,
or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d
be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that
equipment….but building for a 20W load takes the choice away.

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is
2400W.  Even 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment. 
Building solar to handle any load you might have is

expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working
  

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

I just wish Will Prowse would start doing heater reviews on LFP 
batteries, but he's in Vegas and that's the last thing on his mind.  But 
it's critical for everyone north of Lat 36


On 8/17/23 13:07, TJ Trout wrote:
Don't buy 12v lifepo4 batteries for series use, it's much better to buy 
a 24v or 48v battery as it will have one BMS and keep balanced.


https://signaturesolar.com/shop-all/batteries/ 



Some of the main players are signature solar, trophy battery, and a 
bunch of others look at Will prowse solar on YouTube and you can see 
reviews of all of the different 48 volt batteries.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:03 PM Mathew Howard > wrote:


LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though.
You can get something like these:
https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k
 which I
think actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you
need a separate BMS, or you can get something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827
 which is made to be a drop
in replacement for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about? 

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
the $/Wh to buy Lithium. 

__ __

__ __

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

__ __

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would be cheaper
long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and
the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is
required, which means you need more power.

__ __

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building
for a tiny load does make the costs easier.  But if you
wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or anything else you
can’t do it without growing the whole power system
proportionally.



Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end
hardware now is using a lot of signal processing either to
reassemble useful data out of garbage or for beam steering,
or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d
be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that
equipment….but building for a 20W load takes the choice
away. 



A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is
2400W.  Even 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment. 
Building solar to handle any load you might have is

expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you. 

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working
for you then it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that
direction.



-Adam







*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that
having extra battery capacity is more helpful than
oversizing the solar panels, so I'd probably go with Chuck's
numbers for batteries if I was putting something together
now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400
watts (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an
issue if we're trying to fit it on a pole). 



A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160,
so 6 of those would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under
$1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just adjusting battery and
panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right in line
with Chuck's estimate, aside from 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

We love Morningstar 60mppt for lower end solar, ethernet ( no security ) 
complete configuration available and priced lower than most other stuff 
for a serious amount of solar.   For bigger the 600Volt is available, 
for bigger than that the signature solar controllers will do about 
anything you want, even with lithium.   They just released an _outdoor_ 
14.5KW (heated!) battery for 4K.  With that you can build a site that 
will handle about anything..  Licensed links, heated shelters.. etc...


On 8/16/23 6:58 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny 
load does make the costs easier. But if you wanted a second AP, bigger 
backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole 
power system proportionally.


Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is 
using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out 
of garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 
100-150W for an AP. You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul 
under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy 
that equipment….but building for a 20W load takes the choice away.


A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 
2400W would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to 
handle any load you might have is expensive, and building for only low 
power handcuffs you.


You do your thing your way, no judgement. If it’s working for you then 
it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.


-Adam

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having 
extra battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar 
panels, so I'd probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was 
putting something together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, 
so figure 400 watts (if mounting space allows for it, which could be 
an issue if we're trying to fit it on a pole).


A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of 
those would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 
(which is mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I 
started at $1k), I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from 
the battery costs.


On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY
State I’m 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did
a site like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think
the actual load is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and
~4kwh of battery. It had some issues in January a couple years,
but I attributed that more to using cheap flooded deep cycles,
rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten through
the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had
for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to
$1500 when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is
replacing parts that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller
enclosure, backup batteries, power supply), so that offsets it a bit.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in
mountain top location for a 20 watt load I would do the
following that has never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.

2 weeks of battery autonomy.

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah
latitude on top of Utah mountains.

*From:*Mathew Howard

*Sent:*Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal
micropop can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single
AP and backhaul). I can put together a solar setup for around
$1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to
electric that’ll be cheaper than solar.  The problem is
the need to run 24/7.  You have to design around the
December-January months. I’m in NY State, and at our
latitude we only get a few hours of average production per
day during those 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

Surprisingly, not a lot.  10-15% which in line with their summer 
production.  Winter with snow, people were reporting production 20-25% 
higher and much higher when the panels are covered with snow behind and 
sunlight there were videos of 20% production when regular panels were 
zero.   This was at sites with both panels types side by side...


On 8/16/23 4:35 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I presume they are more expensive?  Is the watts per square foot the 
same?


-Original Message- From: Robert
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 3:00 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Or just get bifacials...   The can do that and the incoming solar from
the back side increases snowmelt 2x, as tested by youtubers last
lear...  I was on the fence but the videos were pretty convincing...
The performace boost in winter is way more than summer...

On 8/16/23 3:14 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
We had a storm blow a set of panels over so they were pointed down. 
They were 10 feet off the ground and we were getting significant 
power from the sunlight reflected off the snow.


If I was going to build another system that is super critical, and 
unaccessible in winter, I think I would mount a set of extra panels 
upside down over a white reflecting surface.



-Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

When not buried in a historic snow load or positioned correctly so that
the snow falls off the panels and a 200 foot cliff...

On 8/16/23 12:46, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain 
top location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has 
never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
2 weeks of battery autonomy.
20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude 
on top of Utah mountains.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal 
micropop can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and 
backhaul). I can put together a solar setup for around $1000 that 
will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

    I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric 
that’ll

    be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You
    have to design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY 
State,

    and at our latitude we only get a few hours of average production
    per day during those months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a
    week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly battery
    power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels
    and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever
    be allowed to put on a utility pole. 

    

    Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get. 
Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.

    

    NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an 
exception

    and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a
    conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an
    outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside your enclosure. You’ll
    want the smallest service they’ll let you do because of the wire
    size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) would only
    need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so
    it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper 
than a

    100A service entrance cable.

    

    My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation 
since

    then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs
    for the cable company and they quoted me about $1000. Even if it’s
    3x that for you today you’d still never beat that with a solar
    installation even if they’d let you do it.  And I’m not some
    knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers
    and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or 
when

    the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just
    for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”. Those are all
    fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work 
out.


    

    -Adam

    

    

    *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
    *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
    *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

    

    we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our
    own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
    decommissioned the elevator and theres

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

We are at 39 _but_ the snowfall this winter was epic.   Rivaling 
Chucks...  We aren't on tippytops but with high panel angles and decent 
breaks in the coverage we only had to clear panels out a few times with 
the tracked ranger...  Still got stuck a few times requiring one rescue 
aid   We did have to clear out the area beneath the panels like five 
times.. but shaping the gap encouraged scouring that minimized visits. 
only one site out of 6 required generator service for one day.  Way 
better than 16 when we ran gennies at 3 sites for 1.5 months on and off..




On 8/16/23 3:30 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State 
I’m 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N


What’s your latitude?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a 
site like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the 
actual load is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of 
battery. It had some issues in January a couple years, but I 
attributed that more to using cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than 
not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten through the last couple of 
winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for around $800, last 
I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add in 
enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are 
needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, 
power supply), so that offsets it a bit.


On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in
mountain top location for a 20 watt load I would do the following
that has never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.

2 weeks of battery autonomy.

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah
latitude on top of Utah mountains.

*From:*Mathew Howard

*Sent:*Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal
micropop can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP
and backhaul). I can put together a solar setup for around $1000
that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric
that’ll be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run
24/7.  You have to design around the December-January months. 
I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we only get a few hours
of average production per day during those months.  And
obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to
ride through that on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest
load it takes a silly amount of panels and batteries to stay
up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to put
on a utility pole.

Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can
get.  Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load
is very low.

NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an
exception and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service
rated panel, a conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then
you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside
your enclosure. You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let
you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A
(if they’d allow it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and
that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so it’s still more than you’d
ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A service
entrance cable.

My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation
since then, but I went to the same contractor who does
electric installs for the cable company and they quoted me
about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today you’d still
never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let
you do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m
just saying I’ve run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.  
People do it when they’re off grid, or when the electric
service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for the
PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to
work out.

-Adam

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

Or just get bifacials...   The can do that and the incoming solar from 
the back side increases snowmelt 2x, as tested by youtubers last 
lear...  I was on the fence but the videos were pretty convincing...   
The performace boost in winter is way more than summer...


On 8/16/23 3:14 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
We had a storm blow a set of panels over so they were pointed down. 
They were 10 feet off the ground and we were getting significant power 
from the sunlight reflected off the snow.


If I was going to build another system that is super critical, and 
unaccessible in winter, I think I would mount a set of extra panels 
upside down over a white reflecting surface.



-Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

When not buried in a historic snow load or positioned correctly so that
the snow falls off the panels and a 200 foot cliff...

On 8/16/23 12:46, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain 
top location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has 
never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
2 weeks of battery autonomy.
20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude 
on top of Utah mountains.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop 
can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). 
I can put together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

    I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll
    be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You
    have to design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State,
    and at our latitude we only get a few hours of average production
    per day during those months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a
    week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly battery
    power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels
    and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever
    be allowed to put on a utility pole. 

    

    Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get. 
Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.

    

    NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception
    and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a
    conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an
    outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside your enclosure. You’ll
    want the smallest service they’ll let you do because of the wire
    size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) would only
    need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so
    it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a
    100A service entrance cable.

    

    My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since
    then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs
    for the cable company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s
    3x that for you today you’d still never beat that with a solar
    installation even if they’d let you do it.  And I’m not some
    knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers
    and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when
    the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just
    for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
    fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work 
out.


    

    -Adam

    

    

    *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
    *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
    *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

    

    we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our
    own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
    decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the
    customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something
    we can get solar power with enough battery to last through overcast.
    So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at number of
    batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs
    losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to
    retain them and the benefit gained per pole

    

    

    On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster
     wrote:

    How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages
    other than the 48 volts? If you

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

When not buried in a historic snow load or positioned correctly so that 
the snow falls off the panels and a 200 foot cliff...


On 8/16/23 12:46, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never 
failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
2 weeks of battery autonomy.
20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on 
top of Utah mountains.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop 
can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I 
can put together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll
be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You
have to design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State,
and at our latitude we only get a few hours of average production
per day during those months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a
week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly battery
power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels
and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever
be allowed to put on a utility pole. 



Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get. 
Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.



NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception
and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a
conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an
outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll
want the smallest service they’ll let you do because of the wire
size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) would only
need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so
it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a
100A service entrance cable.



My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since
then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs
for the cable company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s
3x that for you today you’d still never beat that with a solar
installation even if they’d let you do it.  And I’m not some
knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers
and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when
the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just
for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.



-Adam





*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our
own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the
customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something
we can get solar power with enough battery to last through overcast.
So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at number of
batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to
retain them and the benefit gained per pole





On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster
 wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages
other than the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need
48 volts then wire them in series and not have to deal with the
converter.



Thank you,

Brian Webster





*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of
*dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end /of
capacity/. 

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the
battery.  I realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.





*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

I read about one of those that is already pre-packaged in a lead 
coffin.  It does have a bad history with 3 kills and about 1/2 dozen 
sickened...   You have to provide the deuce and 1/2 with the shielded 
drivers compartment.


On 8/15/23 4:52 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I got some old Russian thermo electric generators that are self 
heating.  They are pretty good for things like this.  You will have to 
pick them up though, Sakhalin Island.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* Dennis Burgess
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:36 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

You can use 9dot and do your power control, dc in on solar panels 48 
volt system..    Just another option, lots of reporting and metering 
there..


*LTI-Full_175px*

*Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP 
Certified *


Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

*Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net 



Need to Automate MikroTik Backups: https://cloud.linktechs.net 



Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com 



*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:36 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

OMG get meters.  The panels and batteries will cost more up front and 
they won't last as long.  Solar sucks here in Ohio, it's only going to 
be worse where you're at.


On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 11:54 AM Steve Jones  wrote:

we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops
(our own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the
customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something
we can get solar power with enough battery to last through
overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look
at number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a
ROW meter vs losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost
per customer to retain them and the benefit gained per pole

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster
 wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any
voltages other than the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and
only need 48 volts then wire them in series and not have to
deal with the converter.

Thank you,

Brian Webster

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of
*dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end /of
capacity/.

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the
battery.  I realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.

*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs
53W in (50 / 0.95).

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on
load and temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all
circumstances. Your system should be drawing less than 5A off
the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse like most
do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure
the amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know
for sure.

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on
C-rate so there’s some variability there too.  Usually it
lasts longer when you’re drawing lower amperage.  You’re
around C/30 which should be on the high end.

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If
I want 6 hours of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime.
When my batteries are halfway toasted I’m still getting useful
life out of them.

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Just trying to cipher runtimes

I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be
looking to use.

Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up
converter is the 

Re: [AFMUG] This thing on?

[Robert]

https://www.reddit.com/r/submarines/comments/gy1wc6/what_exactly_does_happen_when_a_submarine_goes/

On 6/22/23 9:30 PM, Robert wrote:
You actually burn from the air compressing before you get squished by 
the water..


On 6/22/23 10:19 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
Carbon fiber is not the same as fiberglass. I believe they pressure 
tested the vessel to ~~ 6,200 PSI (roughly 14,000' depth).


That said, if something goes wrong at that kind of pressure (~~ 5,400 
PSI), the failure would be measured in milliseconds.



bp


On 6/22/2023 8:34 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Water pressure at 12,500' is something like 5400 psi.  There is a 
lot of area on that tube.  Who trusts essentially fiberglass to 
withstand 5400 psi? If it was a pressure vessel it is one thing, but 
this is essentially a vacuum inside the tube, the forces pushing on 
it are not pulling on those fibers.  The tiniest non symmetry in 
shape would be no bueno.


-Original Message- From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2023 7:02 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] This thing on?

I read a commentary today saying the hull was made of titanium and 
carbon

fiber.

An Operations Director for the manufacturer delivered a quality control
report saying that the carbon fiber hull carried a risk of small 
defects

expanding into major failures under pressure.  They were relying on an
acoustic fault detection system that was supposed to alert the pilot if
there were sounds indicating stress in the hull.  That Operations 
Director
said you'd have a matter of milliseconds between that alert system 
going off
and a catastrophic failure.  He'd expressed those concerns verbally 
and was
ignored, so he delivered that report to senior management in 2018 to 
create
a written record of his concerns, and was immediately fired. Then he 
took
his report to OSHA, there was a lawsuit about divulging company 
information
or some such.  Lawsuit settled later that year, OSHA didn't take any 
action
against the manufacturer.  I'd bet a nickel that OSHA doesn't have 
specific
rules for submarines, and without any rules to follow they don't 
have enough

knowledge to assess whether one is actually safe.



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2023 7:32 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] This thing on?

What a horror show.  There were so many ways they could have 
improved their
chances at survival.  Supposedly dissolvable straps should have 
dropped sand
ballast by now.  They had a way to mechanically drop steel ballast.  
And a

inflatable bladder.

Why not a power and comm tether to the mother ship?  I realize it is 
12,500'


of cable but fiber optics are pretty much neutrally buoyant.

But no underwater pinger.  No ELT.  How about a sat tel or VHF 
radio.  Some
kind of way to talk to the world.  No high pressure air to blow 
tanks.  I
would have wanted explosive bolts on the hatch if there was no other 
way to

get out.  But why not some kind of fresh air intake assuming you could
surface.  This haunts my sleep.

-Original Message-
From: Bill Prince
Tryin' to get my ass outa this cramped submarine.


bp


On 6/21/2023 3:10 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

Errbody dead?











--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] This thing on?

[Robert]

You actually burn from the air compressing before you get squished by 
the water..


On 6/22/23 10:19 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
Carbon fiber is not the same as fiberglass. I believe they pressure 
tested the vessel to ~~ 6,200 PSI (roughly 14,000' depth).


That said, if something goes wrong at that kind of pressure (~~ 5,400 
PSI), the failure would be measured in milliseconds.



bp


On 6/22/2023 8:34 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Water pressure at 12,500' is something like 5400 psi.  There is a lot 
of area on that tube.  Who trusts essentially fiberglass to withstand 
5400 psi? If it was a pressure vessel it is one thing, but this is 
essentially a vacuum inside the tube, the forces pushing on it are 
not pulling on those fibers.  The tiniest non symmetry in shape would 
be no bueno.


-Original Message- From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2023 7:02 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] This thing on?

I read a commentary today saying the hull was made of titanium and 
carbon

fiber.

An Operations Director for the manufacturer delivered a quality control
report saying that the carbon fiber hull carried a risk of small defects
expanding into major failures under pressure.  They were relying on an
acoustic fault detection system that was supposed to alert the pilot if
there were sounds indicating stress in the hull.  That Operations 
Director
said you'd have a matter of milliseconds between that alert system 
going off
and a catastrophic failure.  He'd expressed those concerns verbally 
and was
ignored, so he delivered that report to senior management in 2018 to 
create
a written record of his concerns, and was immediately fired. Then he 
took
his report to OSHA, there was a lawsuit about divulging company 
information
or some such.  Lawsuit settled later that year, OSHA didn't take any 
action
against the manufacturer.  I'd bet a nickel that OSHA doesn't have 
specific
rules for submarines, and without any rules to follow they don't have 
enough

knowledge to assess whether one is actually safe.



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2023 7:32 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] This thing on?

What a horror show.  There were so many ways they could have improved 
their
chances at survival.  Supposedly dissolvable straps should have 
dropped sand
ballast by now.  They had a way to mechanically drop steel ballast.  
And a

inflatable bladder.

Why not a power and comm tether to the mother ship?  I realize it is 
12,500'


of cable but fiber optics are pretty much neutrally buoyant.

But no underwater pinger.  No ELT.  How about a sat tel or VHF 
radio.  Some
kind of way to talk to the world.  No high pressure air to blow 
tanks.  I
would have wanted explosive bolts on the hatch if there was no other 
way to

get out.  But why not some kind of fresh air intake assuming you could
surface.  This haunts my sleep.

-Original Message-
From: Bill Prince
Tryin' to get my ass outa this cramped submarine.


bp


On 6/21/2023 3:10 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

Errbody dead?








--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locator Repair

[Robert]

We stand behind our product to take your order for a new one...

On 6/9/23 10:48 AM, Nate Burke wrote:
Amprobe is part of Fluke.  Fluke has ended all support/repair for this 
Amprobe product in 2021.  When I called into the Amprobe/fluke repair 
line, the lady was knowledgeable, but since support ended in 2021, she 
couldn't help me.  She said they won't even sell replacement parts 
anymore.


On 6/9/2023 11:33 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

Manufacturer?

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 11:09 AM Nate Burke  wrote:

Anyone know of a repair shop for locators?  My Amprobe AT-3500
has lost
it's mind.  LCD Flashes 'ERR128' and continually reboots. If I
mash the
keys enough, it will eventually go into a 1/2 working state where
I can
still hear the tone, but won't calculate depth or change locating
frequency, and the LCD Has multiple screens overlaid at the same
time,
it displays the battery capacity image over the top of the signal
graph.  Looks like Fluke Bought Amprobe, and they EOL'd all
support/repair for that model in 2021.  If I can pay a guy $1000
to fix
it, that's cheaper than $5000 for a new locator.

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com






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AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] asus routers

[Robert]

Actually asus is one of the better routers as they auto update 
firmware.  The UI is one of the best.   But this problem is related to 
their phone home check.   They need a new f/w update to fix.   The phone 
home site is down and the checks are failing and the routers are running 
out of memory...


On 5/18/23 12:23 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
yeah, serverplus screwed up their notifications email again so 
everybody is getting bounces from them. lol


asus routers are always getting hijacked I dont know why anybody still 
uses them


On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 2:19 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

?? we had one go down yesterday

On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 12:03 PM Robert 
wrote:

If you have customers running asus..   Shit is hitting the wall.

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 
Thank you,


TJ Trout
Volt Broadband
209.480.3122 Cell
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] asus routers

[Robert]

If you have customers running asus..   Shit is hitting the wall.

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

[Robert]

They used Mikrotik Metals ( the round single pole ) on the Falcons for 
sending camera back before Starlink terminals were mounted.  I don't 
doubt they copied some of the circuitry and possibly the protocols and 
likely they then used Mikrotik gear on the ground.  Once you start using 
this stuff it's hard to stop...  I certainly believe they don't spend on 
Cisco when they don't have to...


On 5/4/23 4:49 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
Hah! I bet they don’t put a Mikrotik switch in their little sats, but 
I can’t prove they don’t.



Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

*From:* AF  on behalf of Robert 


*Sent:* Thursday, May 4, 2023 6:58:30 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"
Funny, this kinda sounds like what's happening with Starlink and their 
connections to zoom, but those seem to be fixed by going to a 
different set of dns servers ( that is what the jungle drums are 
drumming )


On 5/4/23 1:23 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:


So this actually _was_ my issue.

I had disabled port isolation on 3 switches knowing I was going to 
move the uplink ports when I changed topology.


Normally if you have port isolation misconfigured then nothing works. 
Apparently on the CRS226-24G-2S+ if you have the ports assigned to 
isolation profiles and then disable those profiles then it 
/sometimes/ drop /some /traffic to that port. This didn’t become 
apparent until I did a capture onsite with a mirrored port.  I could 
ping the phone 100% of the time with zero drops, they’d get DHCP, and 
talk to the Internet, but /some /reply traffic doesn’t make it back 
to the device.  I assume it’s a bug.  You reboot the phones and they 
work again for awhile, but then after some period of time they’d just 
stop working with Zoom.  Two possible fixes are remove port isolation 
profiles from all ports, or configure it correctly and enable the 
profile.  What’s funny is there were 20+ apartments on the affected 
switches for 3 days and none of them reported any issue…..so I assume 
there was just some general low level packet loss and maybe Zoom was 
just extra tender about it?  That or the bug is specific to something 
about the Zoom traffic.  Whatever the case, I have a fix, and I’m 
moving on with life.  Not gonna test any more thoroughly on an EOL 
switch.


I’m glad Mikrotik discontinued the 226.  This ain’t the first weird 
thing I ran into on these.


I never did get an application layer log, so I don’t know why the 
“forbidden” message.  Maybe Zoom says your connection is shitty and 
I’d rather block you with a 403 you than let you have a bad MOS?  Or 
maybe Yealink says “forbidden” for any general connectivity issue?


Again it’s behind me now and I don’t care enough to test more.  I’m 
just shouting at the wind now.


-Adam

*From:* Adam Moffett  <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 03, 2023 8:27 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

Thank you sir

Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>



*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> 
on behalf of Steve Jones <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>>

*Sent:* Wednesday, May 3, 2023 4:34:51 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

Its a bold assumption that its the bad people i want to eliminate (-:

Im not saying either way

but if there were no "good" people, then "bad" people could only 
stand to get better. growth like that brings joy


If all the "bad" people were gone, then good people would only stand 
to get worse. Decline brings sadness.


Call me the harbinger of joy

On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 11:47 AM <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Apparently Zoom tier1 isn’t helping.  “Check your firewall
settings” and other basic stuff.  I don’t know if they’re just
script readers or if this IT guy doesn’t know what to ask.

I don’t want to be the guy who just points fingers at the other
guy, so I’m trying.  I just wish I could capture the SIP
messages….friggin TLS so super secure that I can’t friggin help
you.  If only the world had no bad people, then we wouldn’t need
security.

I want to hear Steve Jones’s plan for eliminating all the bad
people.  I bet he has one.

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Darin Steffl
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 03, 2023 10:49 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

This is really simple. If they can ping the internet or do
anything else that requires internet at the same time 

Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

[Robert]

Funny, this kinda sounds like what's happening with Starlink and their 
connections to zoom, but those seem to be fixed by going to a different 
set of dns servers ( that is what the jungle drums are drumming )


On 5/4/23 1:23 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


So this actually _was_ my issue.

I had disabled port isolation on 3 switches knowing I was going to 
move the uplink ports when I changed topology.


Normally if you have port isolation misconfigured then nothing works. 
Apparently on the CRS226-24G-2S+ if you have the ports assigned to 
isolation profiles and then disable those profiles then it /sometimes/ 
drop /some /traffic to that port.  This didn’t become apparent until I 
did a capture onsite with a mirrored port.  I could ping the phone 
100% of the time with zero drops, they’d get DHCP, and talk to the 
Internet, but /some /reply traffic doesn’t make it back to the 
device.  I assume it’s a bug.  You reboot the phones and they work 
again for awhile, but then after some period of time they’d just stop 
working with Zoom.  Two possible fixes are remove port isolation 
profiles from all ports, or configure it correctly and enable the 
profile.  What’s funny is there were 20+ apartments on the affected 
switches for 3 days and none of them reported any issue…..so I assume 
there was just some general low level packet loss and maybe Zoom was 
just extra tender about it? That or the bug is specific to something 
about the Zoom traffic.  Whatever the case, I have a fix, and I’m 
moving on with life.  Not gonna test any more thoroughly on an EOL switch.


I’m glad Mikrotik discontinued the 226. This ain’t the first weird 
thing I ran into on these.


I never did get an application layer log, so I don’t know why the 
“forbidden” message.  Maybe Zoom says your connection is shitty and 
I’d rather block you with a 403 you than let you have a bad MOS?  Or 
maybe Yealink says “forbidden” for any general connectivity issue?


Again it’s behind me now and I don’t care enough to test more.  I’m 
just shouting at the wind now.


-Adam

*From:* Adam Moffett 
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 03, 2023 8:27 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

Thank you sir

Get Outlook for iOS 



*From:*AF  on behalf of Steve Jones 


*Sent:* Wednesday, May 3, 2023 4:34:51 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

Its a bold assumption that its the bad people i want to eliminate (-:

Im not saying either way

but if there were no "good" people, then "bad" people could only stand 
to get better. growth like that brings joy


If all the "bad" people were gone, then good people would only stand 
to get worse. Decline brings sadness.


Call me the harbinger of joy

On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 11:47 AM  wrote:

Apparently Zoom tier1 isn’t helping.  “Check your firewall
settings” and other basic stuff.  I don’t know if they’re just
script readers or if this IT guy doesn’t know what to ask.

I don’t want to be the guy who just points fingers at the other
guy, so I’m trying.  I just wish I could capture the SIP
messages….friggin TLS so super secure that I can’t friggin help
you.  If only the world had no bad people, then we wouldn’t need
security.

I want to hear Steve Jones’s plan for eliminating all the bad
people.  I bet he has one.

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Darin Steffl
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 03, 2023 10:49 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

This is really simple. If they can ping the internet or do
anything else that requires internet at the same time the phones
show offline, it's not your problem. They should be contacting
their phone provider.

Their voip provider can provide them host names to ping or trace
to in order to troubleshoot. If you don't sell the voip, you
shouldn't be troubleshooting it aside from making sure your
network ping, jitter, and packetloss are normal.

On Wed, May 3, 2023, 8:13 AM  wrote:

I’m trying to help a customer with their Yealink phones. 
Their provider is Zoom.

I’m 99% sure this is not my problem, but I’m chronically too
nice to people so I’m helping anyway.

So apparently when they go to dial out they’ll get a message
on the screen saying “Forbidden”.  I’m not sure if there’s
more to the message because I only know what they’re telling
me.   When this starts happening their IT guy says the phones
show up as “offline” in whatever management portal they’re
using.  They factory reset the phone, it reprovisions, shows
up as “online” in their portal and works again for some period
of minutes or hours and then does the same thing again.  I
asked if a simple reboot works, but the 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

[Robert]

Somewhere recently I got sent a picture of a ancient hand crushing vice 
that was used by the church to correct blasphemers.  Sounds like you 
need to add that to your kit...


On 4/21/23 8:37 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
obviously you dont want your kids playing near the punji traps or 
claymores. but digging the holes and sharpening the sticks for the 
traps is a good family project. And if you catch one of the petas or 
neonazis in the holes, its an excellent opportunity to teach problem 
solving skills, like where to separate the joints so that the captures 
are more easily transported to the pig pen. Its about working smarter, 
not harder. Then there is melting the fillings down into ingots and 
the grinding of the teeth to powder for the gardens. So many 
opportunities on a compound for family bonding.


On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

I mean maybe?  I used ludicrous examples because I'm not trying to
pick on anyone particular.  I don't care which side of the cup you
drink the kool-aid from, I just don't want a bunch of lunatics
hanging around where my kids might be playing.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 9:17 AM Steve Jones
 wrote:

a proper compound doesnt need to concern itself with the
quality of the neighbors. All you need to worry about is
proper placement of punji traps and claymores. Its the
alphabets you need to worry about, they have helicopters


On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 5:48 AM Adam Moffett
 wrote:

So would you guys actually buy that compound? I'm trying
to wrap my head around who would buy it and what for.

I was looking at an empty lot to be my little outdoor
playground, and it has one of these Amish places adjacent
to it.  In the back of my head I'm picturing some kind of
weirdo cultists moving in. Like nudist PETA eco-terrorists
or  neo-confederate klansmen.

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 8:09 PM Adam Moffett
 wrote:

The Amish are making a mass exodus from NY.  You can
drive through Amish communities and see "for sale"
signs one after the other.  The Amish are generally
known for good workmanship, to the point where some
people go out of their way to get Amish building
contractors.  They also have multigenerational
households, so you get these large properties with
huge well-built houses, barns, and outbuildings.  The
problem is they have no utilities at all.  They'll
have hand pumped wells and outhouses and wood stoves.


https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/234-Hunts-Corners-Center-Lisle-Rd-Marathon-NY-13803/223346029_zpid/?

I linked the above example because it was easy to
find, but that particular one has electric out by the
road.  I saw a similar one for sale where there was no
electric service available and it was listed for
$140k.  That's a friggin 'steal except for one thing: 
What could you do with a huge house with no
electricity?  A scout camp?  Start a cult?




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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

[Robert]

Off grid homes are easy now with LFP batteries, it would just be the 
hassle of wiring it, specially as they probably don't use sheet rock 
interior walls.   So you are probably doing conduit all around the 
outside walls.   But they probably all have basements that you could 
also wire through.


On 4/20/23 5:09 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
The Amish are making a mass exodus from NY.  You can drive through 
Amish communities and see "for sale" signs one after the other.  The 
Amish are generally known for good workmanship, to the point where 
some people go out of their way to get Amish building contractors.  
They also have multigenerational households, so you get these large 
properties with huge well-built houses, barns, and outbuildings.  The 
problem is they have no utilities at all.  They'll have hand pumped 
wells and outhouses and wood stoves.


https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/234-Hunts-Corners-Center-Lisle-Rd-Marathon-NY-13803/223346029_zpid/?

I linked the above example because it was easy to find, but that 
particular one has electric out by the road.  I saw a similar one for 
sale where there was no electric service available and it was listed 
for $140k.  That's a friggin 'steal except for one thing:  What could 
you do with a huge house with no electricity?  A scout camp?  Start a 
cult?









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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Robert]

One of my childhood favorites, because Susan Clark...

Colossus: The Forbin Project



On 4/19/23 3:18 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I remember seeing that at the drive in.  Double feature with Andromeda 
Strain.

“This is the voice of Colossus” AI hooked with an AI in Russia...
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 3:55 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
How about the original Colossus?

On 4/19/23 1:55 PM, James Howard wrote:

well my Atari 2600 can't do it in a year

*From*: "Chuck McCown via AF" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Sent*: 4/19/23 1:06 PM
*To*: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Cc*: ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject*: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
My arduino nano can do it in a week.
*From:* Steven Kenney via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Steven Kenney
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
My raspberry pi does it in under an hour.
On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:26 PM Josh Luthman 
 wrote:


I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3
minutes...that's been a while.

I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't
think it's 10-15 though.
On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies
 wrote:

Dennis,

Using mikrotik routers.

Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9

One CCR1072 v6.47.9

Yes taking full tables.

Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was
supporting it.  Never established a session.

Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7. 
But before I go that route, what should I expect if I do get
3 brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+ running v7.


--
Best regards,
Mark    mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com <http://www.Myakka.com>

--

Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:

DB> Really depends on a lot of things.

DB> 1.What router are you using?
DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your
hold time is kinda long..


DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage,
Cambium ePMP Certified
DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:
https://cloud.linktechs.net
DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com
<http://www.towercoverage.com>

DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark -
Myakka Technologies
DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3
different providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP
will do it's magic and traffic will start flowing though the
surviving circuit.

DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of
unstable Internet while this is happening.  Is this normal?
If not, what can I do to speed up the process?  Is it a
function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new
faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers? Keep-Alive
is 30s and hold is at 90s. Should I investigate BFD?

DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work
under best conditions?

DB> Thanks,
DB>  Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com

DB> Myakka Communications
DB>

https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5

<https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5>


DB> --
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DB> AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Robert]

How about the original Colossus?

On 4/19/23 1:55 PM, James Howard wrote:

well my Atari 2600 can't do it in a year



*From*: "Chuck McCown via AF" 
*Sent*: 4/19/23 1:06 PM
*To*: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Cc*: ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject*: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

My arduino nano can do it in a week.
*From:* Steven Kenney via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Steven Kenney
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
My raspberry pi does it in under an hour.
On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:26 PM Josh Luthman 
 wrote:


I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3
minutes...that's been a while.

I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't
think it's 10-15 though.
On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies
 wrote:

Dennis,

Using mikrotik routers.

Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9

One CCR1072 v6.47.9

Yes taking full tables.

Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was
supporting it.  Never established a session.

Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7. 
But before I go that route, what should I expect if I do get 3
brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+ running v7.


--
Best regards,
Mark    mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com 

--

Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:

DB> Really depends on a lot of things.

DB> 1.What router are you using?
DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your
hold time is kinda long..


DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage,
Cambium ePMP Certified
DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups: https://cloud.linktechs.net
DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com


DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark -
Myakka Technologies
DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC. We peer with 3
different providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP
will do it's magic and traffic will start flowing though the
surviving circuit.

DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable
Internet while this is happening.  Is this normal? If not,
what can I do to speed up the process?  Is it a function of my
routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new faster routers
help?  Is it a function of timers? Keep-Alive is 30s and hold
is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?

DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work
under best conditions?

DB> Thanks,
DB>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

DB> Myakka Communications
DB>

https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5




DB> --
DB> AF mailing list
DB> AF@af.afmug.com
DB> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



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Re: [AFMUG] Short Term Employee

[Robert]

Those are ok if they are done to OSHA standards...

On 4/10/23 7:27 AM, Bill Prince wrote:

...nor let him see the piles of bodies in the landfill.

bp


On 4/10/2023 6:53 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
He is calling OSHA, but that shouldnt be a concern, you just hit the 
osha guy with a pipe and put him in the dumpster, landfills are full 
of OSHA inspectors. But really, im coming to find out OSHA compliance 
isnt the beast it is presented as, just dont let him see your triple 
stacked boxes falling over





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Re: [AFMUG] Short Term Employee

[Robert]

Document his work, and I wish you have videoed some of it to have 
evidence.  I get the feeling he's gonna bite..   At least have a 
discussion of his work with those, besides you or your family, who 
worked with him and can provide backup to your experiences...


On 4/8/23 12:47 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I hired a guy to be a production manager over our grout mixing machine 
product.
He came with a pedigree of doing this at other places.  I didn’t check 
him out, just trusted the resume.

He did have interesting ideas but soon it became evident:
He liked to sit and talk –alot.
He did not want to start helping cleaning up the bill of materials 
(primary job responsibility). (did absolutely nothing along those lines)
He wanted us to farm things out to his buddies (like have fastenal kit 
the nuts and bolts, have this other company make your sheet metal for 
you).
OK, was trying to absorb ideas and suggestions.  After all he was over 
building all the production equipment at the local Purple Mattress 
factory (or so he said).
I expected him to help task employees in his department, but soon when 
asked where they were and what were they doing, he had no idea.
I gave them a task to modify a mounting fixture by cutting it and 
inserting 10” of steel tubing.  Rather than have them do what I asked, 
he took new steel and made one from scratch.
So he wasted the steel, his time and he used too thin of material.  
Took two hours.
I told him you could make the modification in 10 minutes, he argued 
that point.
So I took a stand, cut it, extended it, using a stopwatch.  3 minutes 
43 seconds
When I complained about it, he said that my fixtures were too weak and 
they were going to kill someone.  I demoed one with about 10X load not 
failing.
Then he started complaining about other things, deflecting that he did 
not do what I asked and did something else wasteful and substandard.
Interspersed with my request was not clear and he didn’t understand 
what I wanted...

He said my repair to a air compressor was unsafe.
He said he got arc flash in his eye from a distance of about 60 feet, 
etc etc.  Had to buy stuff to build safe welding stalls, etc etc.
So I  made a casual comment to my son (who is taking over) yesterday: 
“you know, when a guy like this leaves a company whether fired or not, 
they sometimes call OSHA just to cause problems”

Then I actually listened to my own words and agreed with myself.
Late in the day this problem employee said to me: “I guess I am going 
to have to ignore my own exceptionalism to be able work here”.
That bugged me the longer I thought about it.  I fired him via email 
about an hour after he left...  Made it one full week and a couple 
days the prior week.

He can bless someone else with his exceptionalism.
AITA?

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Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

[Robert]

ssume they agree with the hate speech and calls for
violence.
The right is far sicker than the left in every regard. Donald
being elected over Hillary will go down in history as one of
the worst political events in our country. We would be a much
nicer and stable country if Hillary won. The racists, bigots,
and violent people would mostly be hiding still but Donald
gave them permission to act out their hate when he was
elected. It's very sad.
    People who still support Donald are bullies and hate America
at this point.
On Fri, Mar 24, 2023, 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

Ouchie!
You called me the C word...
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 3:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
exactly this...  What I have learned is there is such a
thing as a good cult, which is what I consider the Mormon
church to be.  They have a few extreme points of view but
on the whole they treat everyone ( now including other
races ) reasonably...   And they care about kids and back
it up.

On 3/24/23 2:12 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I loved what the Gov of Utah told a bunch of school
kids yesterday.
“Republicans are wrong about Democratsand Democrats
are wrong about Republicans. Why? Here’s why —
because, what we’re doing now is we’re only listening
to the most extreme voices in those parties. So
Republicans are only listening to the craziest
Democrats and assuming that all Democrats are like
that. Democrats are only listening to the craziest
Republicans and assuming all Republicans are like
that. When the difference between the average Democrat
and the average Republican, really isn’t that big.”
*From:* Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 12:37 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
There's no meaningful difference between authoritarian
left and authoritarian right, which are what catch the
most attention.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>


<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>


*From: *"Darin Steffl" mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Sent: *Thursday, March 23, 2023 9:40:58 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

To be fair, anything left leaning is better for
humanity. The right doesn't seem to care about anyone
different than them. There's very little empathy from
the right so if AI is here, it's best that it cares
about all people in the information it provides.
Don't bite my head off. I'm socially liberal and
fiscally conservative. I care about all people, even
if I don't like them.
On Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 6:25 PM Steve Jones
 wrote:


https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/23/openai-connects-chatgpt-to-the-internet/
I have to admit, Ive been using the shit out of
chatgpt, from writing configs, to search engine
replacement that actually answers questions, and
just general fuckery to see what I can get it to
do. It wont kill engineers or turn off exhaust
systems in the building if you were curious. It
does have a massive left leaning political bias.
But some of the stuff it couldnt do because it
wasnt connected to the internet, so now ill be
back

Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

[Robert]

But it's a good C...   The one that I contemplated joining in my 20's 
when they dangled a very cute girl in front of me...


On 3/24/23 6:22 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

Shots fired.

On Fri, Mar 24, 2023, 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

Ouchie!
You called me the C word...
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 3:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
exactly this...  What I have learned is there is such a thing as a
good cult, which is what I consider the Mormon church to be. They
have a few extreme points of view but on the whole they treat
everyone ( now including other races ) reasonably...   And they
care about kids and back it up.

On 3/24/23 2:12 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I loved what the Gov of Utah told a bunch of school kids yesterday.
“Republicans are wrong about Democratsand Democrats are wrong
about Republicans. Why? Here’s why — because, what we’re doing
now is we’re only listening to the most extreme voices in those
parties. So Republicans are only listening to the craziest
Democrats and assuming that all Democrats are like that.
Democrats are only listening to the craziest Republicans and
assuming all Republicans are like that. When the difference
between the average Democrat and the average Republican, really
isn’t that big.”
*From:* Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 12:37 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
There's no meaningful difference between authoritarian left and
authoritarian right, which are what catch the most attention.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>


<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

*From: *"Darin Steffl" mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Sent: *Thursday, March 23, 2023 9:40:58 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

To be fair, anything left leaning is better for humanity. The
right doesn't seem to care about anyone different than them.
There's very little empathy from the right so if AI is here, it's
best that it cares about all people in the information it provides.
Don't bite my head off. I'm socially liberal and fiscally
conservative. I care about all people, even if I don't like them.
On Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 6:25 PM Steve Jones
 wrote:


https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/23/openai-connects-chatgpt-to-the-internet/
I have to admit, Ive been using the shit out of chatgpt, from
writing configs, to search engine replacement that actually
answers questions, and just general fuckery to see what I can
get it to do. It wont kill engineers or turn off exhaust
systems in the building if you were curious. It does have a
massive left leaning political bias.
But some of the stuff it couldnt do because it wasnt
connected to the internet, so now ill be back at it. I hope i
can get it to do some wargames stuff.
...
would you like to play a game

Sure, I would love to play a game with you! What game would
you like to play?

Steve Jones
global thermo nuclear warfare

I'm sorry, but I cannot play a game of global thermonuclear
warfare with you as it is not a real game, but rather a
fictional concept popularized by the 1983 film "WarGames."
Additionally, it is not appropriate to simulate a scenario
involving nuclear weapons as it could be potentially harmful
and insensitive to those affected by nuclear weapons in the
past. Is there another game you would like to play instead?''

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Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

[Robert]

He was willing to say _anything_ to his base to appease them.  I doubt 
he believes in anything, except his own brilliance and ability to 
manipulate the system.   His only goal is to be royalty and above the 
law.   He admires anyone who has attained that and it is probably all 
that he studies.


On 3/24/23 4:43 PM, Bill Prince wrote:


I wouldn't put Putin or Kim Jong Un on the left.

What I struggle with is the Great Orange Jesus (GOJ). Is he left or 
right? I say neither extreme left or right. Just extreme. He got a 
bunch of the extreme right to side with him, but I don't believe he 
was on anyone's side but his own.




bp

On 3/24/2023 3:14 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Karl Marx
Lenin
Stalin
Putin
Pretty sure those dudes were far worst than Trump
Even Castro
Kim Jong Un
Seriously you thing the far left are better?
*From:* Darin Steffl
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 3:54 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Chuck McCown
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
The extreme left is still better than the extreme right.
I don't agree with either sides' extremes but if I had to pick one 
side, everyone being taken care of, like socialism, I'd pick that 
over the extreme right who wants to murder anyone different than 
them. Like far right pastors and supporters who call for violence and 
murder of gay people, people of color, and liberals. I can find 
thousands of posts and video from Republicans calling for sick things 
but very few liberals saying the same things.
I don't see far left people calling for violence and murder of people 
they disagree with.
So while there are two sides, one side is better than the other, as 
in less violent and extreme.
I'd take free college for all, free Healthcare, and more from the 
extreme left over the extreme right who wants to ban books, kill 
people they disagree with, try to overturn elections, cheat, lie, 
steal, etc. Again, the left is the better choice when it comes to 
empathy and taking care of people.
While an average republican might not agree with the far right, their 
silence is the same as being complicit in their sick beliefs.
At least an average Democrat calls out the far left people like I do. 
I don't agree in wiping out all student loans, for example. And I've 
contacted democrats I've voted for to voice my opinions.
I don't see Republicans calling out far right politicians who are 
spewing hate everyday. I wish they would but since they aren't, I 
assume they agree with the hate speech and calls for violence.
The right is far sicker than the left in every regard. Donald being 
elected over Hillary will go down in history as one of the worst 
political events in our country. We would be a much nicer and stable 
country if Hillary won. The racists, bigots, and violent people would 
mostly be hiding still but Donald gave them permission to act out 
their hate when he was elected. It's very sad.
People who still support Donald are bullies and hate America at this 
point.
On Fri, Mar 24, 2023, 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


Ouchie!
You called me the C word...
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 3:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
exactly this...  What I have learned is there is such a thing as
a good cult, which is what I consider the Mormon church to be. 
They have a few extreme points of view but on the whole they
treat everyone ( now including other races ) reasonably...   And
they care about kids and back it up.

On 3/24/23 2:12 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I loved what the Gov of Utah told a bunch of school kids yesterday.
“Republicans are wrong about Democratsand Democrats are wrong
about Republicans. Why? Here’s why — because, what we’re doing
now is we’re only listening to the most extreme voices in those
parties. So Republicans are only listening to the craziest
Democrats and assuming that all Democrats are like that.
Democrats are only listening to the craziest Republicans and
assuming all Republicans are like that. When the difference
between the average Democrat and the average Republican, really
isn’t that big.”
*From:* Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 12:37 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
There's no meaningful difference between authoritarian left and
authoritarian right, which are what catch the most attention.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https:

Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

[Robert]

exactly this...  What I have learned is there is such a thing as a good 
cult, which is what I consider the Mormon church to be.  They have a few 
extreme points of view but on the whole they treat everyone ( now 
including other races ) reasonably...   And they care about kids and 
back it up.


On 3/24/23 2:12 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I loved what the Gov of Utah told a bunch of school kids yesterday.
“Republicans are wrong about Democratsand Democrats are wrong about 
Republicans. Why? Here’s why — because, what we’re doing now is we’re 
only listening to the most extreme voices in those parties. So 
Republicans are only listening to the craziest Democrats and assuming 
that all Democrats are like that. Democrats are only listening to the 
craziest Republicans and assuming all Republicans are like that. When 
the difference between the average Democrat and the average 
Republican, really isn’t that big.”

*From:* Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 12:37 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
There's no meaningful difference between authoritarian left and 
authoritarian right, which are what catch the most attention.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Darin Steffl" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Thursday, March 23, 2023 9:40:58 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

To be fair, anything left leaning is better for humanity. The right 
doesn't seem to care about anyone different than them. There's very 
little empathy from the right so if AI is here, it's best that it 
cares about all people in the information it provides.
Don't bite my head off. I'm socially liberal and fiscally 
conservative. I care about all people, even if I don't like them.
On Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 6:25 PM Steve Jones  
wrote:


https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/23/openai-connects-chatgpt-to-the-internet/
I have to admit, Ive been using the shit out of chatgpt, from
writing configs, to search engine replacement that actually
answers questions, and just general fuckery to see what I can get
it to do. It wont kill engineers or turn off exhaust systems in
the building if you were curious. It does have a massive left
leaning political bias.
But some of the stuff it couldnt do because it wasnt connected to
the internet, so now ill be back at it. I hope i can get it to do
some wargames stuff.
...
would you like to play a game

Sure, I would love to play a game with you! What game would you
like to play?

Steve Jones
global thermo nuclear warfare

I'm sorry, but I cannot play a game of global thermonuclear
warfare with you as it is not a real game, but rather a fictional
concept popularized by the 1983 film "WarGames." Additionally, it
is not appropriate to simulate a scenario involving nuclear
weapons as it could be potentially harmful and insensitive to
those affected by nuclear weapons in the past. Is there another
game you would like to play instead?''

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Re: [AFMUG] mail servers

[Robert Andrews]

 A host is a host from coast to coast.  And nobody talks to a host 
that's close, unless the host that isn't close is busy, hung, or dead...


UUCP email days...

On 3/13/23 15:46, Jan-GAMs wrote:

George Noory?  But I preferred Art Bell

Hey, that large company I worked for, well, one of the employees who 
also got a lot of email, was injured and was out for like 3 months.  Her 
inbox got too full with unread mail and brought down the entire email 
system.


On 3/12/23 14:52, Robert Andrews wrote:

Who remembers a famous USENET author that had:

A host is a host from coast to coast

(what was the next line?)

As part of their signature..  Not the copycats, but the original...



On 3/12/23 13:13, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Back in the day, just sniffing the ethernet would get you all the 
email flying around your company.  Was kinda fun.

I know one guy that would purposely jam another’s outgoing email.
Once he detected who it was from he would just turn on transmit. This 
was on a CSMA/CD coaxial network.

*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
*Sent:* Sunday, March 12, 2023 2:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mail servers
Internet email isn't anonymous,  never was.  Even in the early 
days.   There has always been a multitude of ways to track email back 
to the origin server.  And there has been a multitude of ways to 
obfuscate but not hide that origin.
Any anonymity you may have is based on the origin server either not 
knowing or not being willing to disclose that information. Every 
email received generally will be able to be tracked back to the 
origin server,  with the caveat that sometimes the owner of the 
origin server will be unable to be determined since any random person 
can spin up a server, send mail,  and drop off the planet.
Note that spf and dmarc don't validate the user.   They only validate 
that the email originated from servers known to send mail for a given 
domain and provide some cryptographic assurance of that fact. It's a 
way for legitimate companies to ensure that email that appears to 
come from them actually comes from them and for companies like google 
to be able to reject what appear to be emails with spoofed sender 
information.



On Sun, Mar 12, 2023, 3:17 PM Jan-GAMs  wrote:

    Because 45 years ago my company was connected to the rest of itself
    via the arpanet and they promised us on a stack of bibles that those
    who used the email system would always remain anonymous.  Of course,
    then later they published a 5,000 page phone book with all our
    emails associated with our work addresses for over 50,000
    employees.  I printed it out and put it in a 3-ring binder and put
    it in the computer room where the other users could use it. Back
    then we had these machines called an Alto and each user had this big
    plastic cartridge with a huge disk in it.  If I recall, this
    generated a lawsuit, because they promised us that no-one would ever
    know our email address associated with our work phone, work address,
    etc... .  It wasn't true then and it still isn't true.  But that
    can't make it, the promise, unsaid.

    On 3/12/23 09:47, Steve Jones wrote:

    wtf, where did you get that email was designed for anonymity?
    This is getting to some Qanon level right here
    On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 11:40 AM Jan-GAMs 
    wrote:

    good question Forrest. mail.com <http://mail.com> provides
    several hundred domains to choose from and use and easily
    works with thunderbird as well as most other email reader
    applications.  Plus it's free.  All Google is doing is
    monopolizing email.  Email was originally designed to be used
    by arpanet to be free/open/anonymous and to still be
    functional even after a global war.  Using spf/dkim removes
    the anonymous.  I don't think that's right.  I also think that
    since you have just shown me how easy it is to send fake mail,
    it also seems it could be about as easy to add a fake spf/dkim
    into it with a little more python scripting.  End result is
    now google knows exactly who you are and who you're sending to
    and the spam filters are broken because now we'll have
    verified spam mail.

    Who are you?  Who do you know?  What is the content? Where is
    your privacy?

    Problems with the ease of Telnetting spoof mail: I do not know
    anyone who has their very own homemade mail server, plus, I do
    not know anyone who has actually built and setup successfully
    a homebrew DIY email server.  I do know lots of people who
    have tried to do so, including myself.  It's way easier to buy
    it as a service and then it gets expensive.  Another problem
    is most of the free email servers won't allow users to send
    more than 10 emails at a time and you have to wait up to an
    hour before you can send 10 more.  That

Re: [AFMUG] mail servers

[Robert Andrews]

Who remembers a famous USENET author that had:

A host is a host from coast to coast

(what was the next line?)

As part of their signature..  Not the copycats, but the original...



On 3/12/23 13:13, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Back in the day, just sniffing the ethernet would get you all the email 
flying around your company.  Was kinda fun.

I know one guy that would purposely jam another’s outgoing email.
Once he detected who it was from he would just turn on transmit.  This 
was on a CSMA/CD coaxial network.

*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
*Sent:* Sunday, March 12, 2023 2:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mail servers
Internet email isn't anonymous,  never was.  Even in the early days.   
There has always been a multitude of ways to track email back to the 
origin server.  And there has been a multitude of ways to obfuscate but 
not hide that origin.
Any anonymity you may have is based on the origin server either not 
knowing or not being willing to disclose that information.  Every email 
received generally will be able to be tracked back to the origin 
server,  with the caveat that sometimes the owner of the origin server 
will be unable to be determined since any random person can spin up a 
server, send mail,  and drop off the planet.
Note that spf and dmarc don't validate the user.   They only validate 
that the email originated from servers known to send mail for a given 
domain and provide some cryptographic assurance of that fact. It's a way 
for legitimate companies to ensure that email that appears to come from 
them actually comes from them and for companies like google to be able 
to reject what appear to be emails with spoofed sender information.



On Sun, Mar 12, 2023, 3:17 PM Jan-GAMs  wrote:

Because 45 years ago my company was connected to the rest of itself
via the arpanet and they promised us on a stack of bibles that those
who used the email system would always remain anonymous.  Of course,
then later they published a 5,000 page phone book with all our
emails associated with our work addresses for over 50,000
employees.  I printed it out and put it in a 3-ring binder and put
it in the computer room where the other users could use it.  Back
then we had these machines called an Alto and each user had this big
plastic cartridge with a huge disk in it.  If I recall, this
generated a lawsuit, because they promised us that no-one would ever
know our email address associated with our work phone, work address,
etc... .  It wasn't true then and it still isn't true.  But that
can't make it, the promise, unsaid.

On 3/12/23 09:47, Steve Jones wrote:

wtf, where did you get that email was designed for anonymity?
This is getting to some Qanon level right here
On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 11:40 AM Jan-GAMs 
wrote:

good question Forrest. mail.com  provides
several hundred domains to choose from and use and easily
works with thunderbird as well as most other email reader
applications.  Plus it's free.  All Google is doing is
monopolizing email.  Email was originally designed to be used
by arpanet to be free/open/anonymous and to still be
functional even after a global war.  Using spf/dkim removes
the anonymous.  I don't think that's right.  I also think that
since you have just shown me how easy it is to send fake mail,
it also seems it could be about as easy to add a fake spf/dkim
into it with a little more python scripting.  End result is
now google knows exactly who you are and who you're sending to
and the spam filters are broken because now we'll have
verified spam mail.

Who are you?  Who do you know?  What is the content? Where is
your privacy?

Problems with the ease of Telnetting spoof mail: I do not know
anyone who has their very own homemade mail server, plus, I do
not know anyone who has actually built and setup successfully
a homebrew DIY email server.  I do know lots of people who
have tried to do so, including myself.  It's way easier to buy
it as a service and then it gets expensive.  Another problem
is most of the free email servers won't allow users to send
more than 10 emails at a time and you have to wait up to an
hour before you can send 10 more.  That's why I tried to build
my own, just so I could send customers the monthly billing
automatically.  I even hired a programmer who said he had done
it before, he failed.

On 3/12/23 07:32, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

I can insert a spoofed email using only telnet to port 25 on
a mail server in about 30 seconds not counting the time it
takes to type the message itself. Basically you telnet to
port 25, issue four commands (HELO, 

Re: [AFMUG] mail servers

[Robert Andrews]

The original Usenet email had the actual path to a major server (ATT, 
UCB, UCSB, etc... ) in the beginning every email address, pretty hard 
not to know the path of the users back then...


On 3/12/23 13:01, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
Internet email isn't anonymous,  never was.  Even in the early days.  
  There has always been a multitude of ways to track email back to the 
origin server.  And there has been a multitude of ways to obfuscate but 
not hide that origin.


Any anonymity you may have is based on the origin server either not 
knowing or not being willing to disclose that information.  Every email 
received generally will be able to be tracked back to the origin 
server,  with the caveat that sometimes the owner of the origin server 
will be unable to be determined since any random person can spin up a 
server, send mail,  and drop off the planet.


Note that spf and dmarc don't validate the user.   They only validate 
that the email originated from servers known to send mail for a given 
domain and provide some cryptographic assurance of that fact. It's a way 
for legitimate companies to ensure that email that appears to come from 
them actually comes from them and for companies like google to be able 
to reject what appear to be emails with spoofed sender information.




On Sun, Mar 12, 2023, 3:17 PM Jan-GAMs > wrote:


Because 45 years ago my company was connected to the rest of itself
via the arpanet and they promised us on a stack of bibles that those
who used the email system would always remain anonymous.  Of course,
then later they published a 5,000 page phone book with all our
emails associated with our work addresses for over 50,000
employees.  I printed it out and put it in a 3-ring binder and put
it in the computer room where the other users could use it.  Back
then we had these machines called an Alto and each user had this big
plastic cartridge with a huge disk in it.  If I recall, this
generated a lawsuit, because they promised us that no-one would ever
know our email address associated with our work phone, work address,
etc... .  It wasn't true then and it still isn't true.  But that
can't make it, the promise, unsaid.

On 3/12/23 09:47, Steve Jones wrote:

wtf, where did you get that email was designed for anonymity?

This is getting to some Qanon level right here

On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 11:40 AM Jan-GAMs mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>> wrote:

good question Forrest. mail.com  provides
several hundred domains to choose from and use and easily
works with thunderbird as well as most other email reader
applications.  Plus it's free.  All Google is doing is
monopolizing email.  Email was originally designed to be used
by arpanet to be free/open/anonymous and to still be
functional even after a global war.  Using spf/dkim removes
the anonymous.  I don't think that's right.  I also think that
since you have just shown me how easy it is to send fake mail,
it also seems it could be about as easy to add a fake spf/dkim
into it with a little more python scripting.  End result is
now google knows exactly who you are and who you're sending to
and the spam filters are broken because now we'll have
verified spam mail.

Who are you?  Who do you know?  What is the content? Where is
your privacy?

Problems with the ease of Telnetting spoof mail: I do not know
anyone who has their very own homemade mail server, plus, I do
not know anyone who has actually built and setup successfully
a homebrew DIY email server.  I do know lots of people who
have tried to do so, including myself. It's way easier to buy
it as a service and then it gets expensive.  Another problem
is most of the free email servers won't allow users to send
more than 10 emails at a time and you have to wait up to an
hour before you can send 10 more.  That's why I tried to build
my own, just so I could send customers the monthly billing
automatically. I even hired a programmer who said he had done
it before, he failed.

On 3/12/23 07:32, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

I can insert a spoofed email using only telnet to port 25 on
a mail server in about 30 seconds not counting the time it
takes to type the message itself. Basically you telnet to
port 25, issue four commands (HELO, MAIL FROM, RCPT TO,
DATA), and then type the message itself.

Spoofing email in an automated way only takes some basic
python skills.   Like I could teach anyone with a bit of
computer experience how to do it in about an hour or so. 
This python script can run on anything that runs python,

which is pretty much any 

Re: [AFMUG] RF Cage for WIFI

[Robert]

Why red force rooms had double doors that would have shredded said 
dollar bill..


On 2/28/23 6:47 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
A microwave probably fits through the seam in your lead lined case.  A 
was talking once with an IBM guy who worked in some kind of RF 
shielded room.  He said if he wanted his cell phone to work inside the 
room he just had to put a dollar bill in the door.


Get Outlook for iOS 

*From:* AF  on behalf of Nate Burke 


*Sent:* Monday, February 27, 2023 8:08:55 PM
*To:* Animal Farm 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] RF Cage for WIFI
I've got a Comcast residential Modem that I can't get the RF turned off
in.  I haven't been able to find the right phrase at support to get them
to do it.  So far All that's happened is they've removed the SSID's, but
the RF is still broadcasting.  There are some 'RF cages' on Amazon to
'limit your exposure to WIFI'  But they're marketed as making your house
'healthier'  and reviews say they just slightly weaken the signal.

Is there a way to properly ground out a cage around the modem to block
all the WIFI?  Many moons ago, back in the days of 802.11b, I put an AP
into a lead lined pelican case, and was still able to connect to the
WIFI from outside of it.  I'm guessing I didn't do something right back
then.

FWIW though, I am getting 2.4gb/s x 230mb/s through the coax
connection.  There's only a 2.5G interface on the modem.

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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange

[Robert]

One of the best things I heard out of Elon Musk ox, is that technology 
is expensive and the higher level the tech the more expensive it is.   
To maintain, to improve, to fix, to buy...


On 2/16/23 8:06 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
Weldong is one of those "entry level" gigs that comes at a great cost 
to the employer offering on the job training. Increases in material 
costs, increases in QC failures, increases on returns. 6 months at 15 
bucks an hour to destroy a bunch of material becoming proficient at 
best is a more than fair compensation.








My neice (millenial) wants to rent one of my parents rentals thats got 
a bunch of repairs to be done from the last tenant. She wants to live 
rent free in exchange for doing the repairs. I told her she 
doesnt bring anything to the table. I tried explaining to her that 
trade for service means you bring the requisite knowlege to perform 
the service. She got hot and tried the "what because im a girl" I shot 
that down. Then she said she can learn from youtube. It went round and 
round with her not comprehending that learning from youtube is what 
you do in your own home, on your own dime. She didnt comprehend that 
the material costs will go up as she damages more than she fixes 
learning from youtube. She didnt comprehend that she doesnt posess the 
toolset to perform the tasks and would spend more on buying them than 
she would on rent (she planned on just using our tools, and damaging 
those).
My folks are old, theyre doing the repairs themselves, its taking a  
long time. realistically we could hire it done and everything knocked 
out in a few days by a pro for the value of maybe two months rent. It 
will probably take them a few more months to get it done.
The niece I think believes she could have no rent for like 6 months to 
do a few days professional work at a low quality standard.


I always have done my best to teach my children to know both their 
value, and their place. These younger folks have no guage of value not 
do they comprehend their place. Its got a lot to do with the tools 
available to complete the underlying tasks. They master these iphones 
and other gadgets and think they are techs, yet they 
couldnt troubleshoot a hardware issue if their tits were in a press. 
These are the people who are going to be taking care of me as i age 
out of the workforce and it terrifies me. The underlying systems were 
built by what they call boomers, maintained by what they call boomers, 
and they will be operating them to maintain us that they call boomers 
when the systems begin to fail and they down have the worth to fix them.


its a scary world out there

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 1:55 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


One of my millennial daughters, grown, married, trying to adult,
lives with her brother and his wife told me that I just don’t
understand how hard it is today compared to when I was younger. 
So I did a little comparison for her:
My first paid job in 1976 was $2/hour.  That would be about
$10.70/hour today.
(I was an unpaid apprentice to a machinist in 1974, and slave
labor on the farm from 1960 until I escaped).
My first skilled, formally trained, semi professional, utility
lineman job in 1979 paid $4.50/hour.
That would be about $18 today.
My first home, single wide 10 x 50 mobile home cost $12,000 in
1982.  Or about $36K today.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/744-S-1750-W-Vernal-UT-84078/2070550612_zpid/
So how is it people have it so much worse today?
*From:* Jeff Broadwick - Lists
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 11:39 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Too many parents want to be friends with their kids and not
actually parent.  Good news is, if you do a good job of parenting,
you’ll likely have the opportunity out to become friends with your
kids after they move out.

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com


On Feb 14, 2023, at 1:25 PM, Sterling Jacobson
 wrote:



Yeah, that’s a problem for sure.

All the youth (and some adults) see online is prosperity and
wealth and entitlement.

Your definition of existing just doesn’t even come to their
minds. To use a phrase, they literally don’t comprehend it.

I was living happily in a one room apartment for $400 a month and
eating the same PB and soup for lunch/dinner on almost no
monthly spend.

I had an old futon bed that I had purchased in college as
furniture. My monthly output was focused on paying rent and a bit
for food and my car.

I was hungry for more, made my way by learning, taking what I
could find and working my way up.

And during none of that did I think to myself, “This is shit, I
am entitled to more because I exist.” Lol

My grown kids ask for very little and even then get told no all
   

Re: [AFMUG] Question for the "borg" about ISP access to ROW

[Robert]

He gets arrested and killed by the police for being in the good 
neighborhood...   ( I said it before Steve did )


On 2/7/23 12:09 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

What about a black male teen in a good neighborhood?

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 3:07 PM Carl Peterson 
 wrote:


Josh - has a lot more to do with who "you" are.  Black male teen
is likely more like 1/5.  45yo white guy in a good neighborhood is
more likely to get ripped on conduit fees and taxes.  I actually
live in MN now but my office is still in Baltimore.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 1:43 PM Josh Luthman
 wrote:

Isn't Baltimore known for its massive growth?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore
>The American city of Baltimore, Maryland, is notorious for
its crime rate, which ranks well above the national average.

>Your chance of being a victim of violent crime in Baltimore
is 1 in 64 and property crime is 1 in 33

Holy jesus that's way worse than what I had in mind.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 2:12 PM  wrote:

I picked a pretty much random residential block in
Baltimore. 225ft long.  30 buildings (counting both sides
of the street).  There are typically 1 or 2 mailboxes on
each building.  If I assume 1.5 units per building then
there 45 passings (and it’s probably not that many in
reality).

If that $3.33/ft is per month ….then some back of the
napkin math tells me you’d pretty much have to hook up
every single house to make that worthwhile.

Which means this rule guarantees a monopoly in Baltimore
forever. Come on guys WTF.

*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2023 1:57 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] Question for the "borg" about ISP
access to ROW

$3.33 one time, or recurring?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Carl
Peterson
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2023 12:00 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Question for the "borg" about ISP
access to ROW

Baltimore City won't give you ROW access any sort of way. 
They want you to pay $3.33 per foot to use their conduit
system.  If you need new duct you need to build it, give
it to them, and pay $3.33 per foot to use it. We were in
the process of leveraging Title II to force them to give
us access to run our own ducts under sidewalks when Title
II got yanked back in 2017.  That's a big part of why we
left WISPA. We just gave up on the idea and bought a
company in FL and started running fiber.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 10:49 AM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

Yep, a larger town in my area wanted as much for the
ROW access as it would cost to buy the fiber and conduit.

*From:*Josh Luthman

*Sent:*Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:33 AM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Cc:*syssup

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Question for the "borg" about
ISP access to ROW

Getting CLEC does *NOT* remove all confusion.

In my case, a village has no permits (of any kind), no
understanding of ROW, wanted to charge us rent to
access the space, etc.

In others' experience, I've heard DOT/county being
extraordinarily difficult to work with to issue a permit.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 10:20 AM Jim Bouse [Brazos
WiFi]  wrote:

We got setup as a CLEC to remove all confusion. 
If you are planning on being in the fiber
business, quit messing around and do it right.

Jim Bouse
Owner - Brazos WiFi
979-999-7000
http://www.brazoswifi.com

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of
Larry Smith
Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:03 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
; syssup 
Subject: [AFMUG] Question for the "borg" about ISP
access to ROW


Question for those more in tune than I.

We are working (attempting) with our local
electric company for access to their ROW for some
of our fiber and they have stated that the rights
granted ISP's under Title II (telecommunications
provider) in 2015 was reversed in 

Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much

[Robert]

That episode left a lot out, specifically about crumple zones.

1) should have had a car sitting against the wall and slammed into it at 
100mph and 50 mph


2) should have had their clay tests with objects that deform.

3) should have had a car stationary not against a wall against a car 
moving at 50 and 100 mph..., i.e. the car stationary could move 
backwards all the way through the collisions


the two cars hitting each other at 50, yes they are not immovable 
objects in the collision AND they have crumple zones.  And two cars have 
twice the crumple zone.   There is a huge amount of energy going into 
crumpling twice the steel, even with twice the mass...




On 2/7/23 8:48 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Good video.
I am now faced with asking State Farm to make me whole with respect to 
the crash.

We have had bad experience with State Farm in the past.
Any tips?
*From:* Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 1:18 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
Watch the video.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 2:52 PM Robert Andrews  
wrote:


two crumple zones hitting each other vs one crumple zone hitting a
wall,
makes off the cuff sense to me...  two old, non crumple zone, cars
hitting each other would seem like what it would take to get a 120
mph
impact.   Those crumple zones make a monster difference...



On 2/6/23 10:52, Josh Luthman wrote:
> Not correct, Bill :(
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 1:07 PM Bill Prince  <mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> There would be the difference between colliding with an "almost"
> immovable object (wall) versus colliding with a vehicle that has
> some semblance of a crush zone. I don't know how much that
> difference would be.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 2/6/2023 9:04 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>> As I recall, mythbusters did the whole two cars head on vs
one car
>> and an immovable wall.  Seemed like there was no difference.
>> *From:* Brian Webster
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 9:25 AM
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
>>
>> Yes I would rather have a collision with another car at the
>> difference in speed than the combined speed of the two…. 
>>
>> 
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> 
>>
>> *From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
>> <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of
>> *dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 9:54 AM
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
>>
>> 
>>
>> Huh….never heard them called Jersey Barriers before.
>>
>> Apparently the slope on the bottom is to make your tires
ride up
>> so you redirect back into your own lane (though possibly
flipped
    >> over) whereas a flat wall might make you flip into the oncoming
>> lane. 
>>
>> Fun stuff.
>>
>> 
>>
>> *From:* AF 
>> <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Robert
>> *Sent:* Friday, February 03, 2023 10:42 PM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
>>
>> 
>>
>> Same, california name for them.   Always remembered that
name from
>> the movie "Volcano"
>>
>> On 2/3/23 5:10 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>
>> Looks the same as Jersey barriers?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> 
>>
>> On Feb 3, 2023, at 5:29 PM, Robert
>> mailto:i...@avantwireless.com wrote:
>>
>>  surplus K rail, if you think they might make it over,
>> double it up...
>>
>>
>>

https://www.eiffeltrading.com/marketplace/traffic-barrier/barrier-wall/k-rail-barrier-wall

<https://www.eiffeltrading.com/marketplace/traffic-barrier/barrier-wall/k-rail-barrier-wall>
>>
>> On 2/3/23 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, sonotube filled with a rebar cage.  Make a

Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much

[Robert Andrews]

two crumple zones hitting each other vs one crumple zone hitting a wall, 
makes off the cuff sense to me...  two old, non crumple zone, cars 
hitting each other would seem like what it would take to get a 120 mph 
impact.   Those crumple zones make a monster difference...




On 2/6/23 10:52, Josh Luthman wrote:

Not correct, Bill :(

On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 1:07 PM Bill Prince <mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:


There would be the difference between colliding with an "almost"
immovable object (wall) versus colliding with a vehicle that has
some semblance of a crush zone. I don't know how much that
difference would be.


bp


On 2/6/2023 9:04 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

As I recall, mythbusters did the whole two cars head on vs one car
and an immovable wall.  Seemed like there was no difference.
*From:* Brian Webster
*Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 9:25 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much

Yes I would rather have a collision with another car at the
difference in speed than the combined speed of the two…. 



Brian



*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of
*dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 9:54 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much



Huh….never heard them called Jersey Barriers before.

Apparently the slope on the bottom is to make your tires ride up
so you redirect back into your own lane (though possibly flipped
over) whereas a flat wall might make you flip into the oncoming
lane. 

Fun stuff.



*From:* AF 
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Robert
*Sent:* Friday, February 03, 2023 10:42 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much



Same, california name for them.   Always remembered that name from
the movie "Volcano"

On 2/3/23 5:10 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Looks the same as Jersey barriers?

Sent from my iPhone

    

On Feb 3, 2023, at 5:29 PM, Robert
mailto:i...@avantwireless.com wrote:

 surplus K rail, if you think they might make it over,
double it up...



https://www.eiffeltrading.com/marketplace/traffic-barrier/barrier-wall/k-rail-barrier-wall
 
<https://www.eiffeltrading.com/marketplace/traffic-barrier/barrier-wall/k-rail-barrier-wall>

On 2/3/23 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Yeah, sonotube filled with a rebar cage.  Make a
picket fence of them.  Cheaper than a cutover to a new
building.  I have 576 strands feeding this shelter. 
Or maybe I beam hammered in with a pile driver. 




Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com>
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro>
www.terabitnetworks.com
<http://www.terabitnetworks.com>



*From:*TJ Trout 

*Sent:*Friday, February 3, 2023 10:08 AM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

*Cc:*Chuck McCown 

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much



I'm sure you could design some bollards that wouldn't
allow a tractor trailer through your fence 



On Fri, Feb 3, 2023, 8:34 AM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

I think we are going to install a larger shelter,
farther away from the I-80 ROW fence.  Second
crash right there.  First to come through the
fence.  Car landed on our back up generator after
wiping out our fiber splicing trailer, dump
trailer and really nice powered reel trailer. 



Hope the kid had insurance.  No seat belt.  Head
wound but apparently no broken bones. 



*From:*Mark Radabaugh 

*Sent:*Friday, February 3, 2023 7:27 AM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that 

Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much

[Robert]

Same, california name for them.   Always remembered that name from the 
movie "Volcano"


On 2/3/23 5:10 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Looks the same as Jersey barriers?

Sent from my iPhone


On Feb 3, 2023, at 5:29 PM, Robert  wrote:

 surplus K rail, if you think they might make it over, double it up...


https://www.eiffeltrading.com/marketplace/traffic-barrier/barrier-wall/k-rail-barrier-wall


On 2/3/23 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Yeah, sonotube filled with a rebar cage.  Make a picket fence of 
them.  Cheaper than a cutover to a new building.  I have 576 strands 
feeding this shelter. Or maybe I beam hammered in with a pile driver.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* TJ Trout
*Sent:* Friday, February 3, 2023 10:08 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Chuck McCown
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
I'm sure you could design some bollards that wouldn't allow a 
tractor trailer through your fence 
On Fri, Feb 3, 2023, 8:34 AM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


I think we are going to install a larger shelter, farther away
from the I-80 ROW fence.  Second crash right there. First to
come through the fence.  Car landed on our back up generator
after wiping out our fiber splicing trailer, dump trailer and
really nice powered reel trailer.
Hope the kid had insurance.  No seat belt.  Head wound but
apparently no broken bones.
*From:* Mark Radabaugh
*Sent:* Friday, February 3, 2023 7:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
I don’t see the brown stain marking where you were standing
before the car arrived.
Mark
Mark Radabaugh
Amplex
22690 Pemberville Rd
Luckey, OH 43443
419-837-5015 x 1021
419-261-5996 cell
m...@amplex.net


On Feb 3, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:








Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much

[Robert]

surplus K rail, if you think they might make it over, double it up...


https://www.eiffeltrading.com/marketplace/traffic-barrier/barrier-wall/k-rail-barrier-wall


On 2/3/23 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Yeah, sonotube filled with a rebar cage.  Make a picket fence of 
them.  Cheaper than a cutover to a new building.  I have 576 strands 
feeding this shelter.  Or maybe I beam hammered in with a pile driver.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* TJ Trout
*Sent:* Friday, February 3, 2023 10:08 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Chuck McCown
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
I'm sure you could design some bollards that wouldn't allow a tractor 
trailer through your fence 

On Fri, Feb 3, 2023, 8:34 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

I think we are going to install a larger shelter, farther away
from the I-80 ROW fence. Second crash right there.  First to come
through the fence.  Car landed on our back up generator after
wiping out our fiber splicing trailer, dump trailer and really
nice powered reel trailer.
Hope the kid had insurance.  No seat belt.  Head wound but
apparently no broken bones.
*From:* Mark Radabaugh
*Sent:* Friday, February 3, 2023 7:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
I don’t see the brown stain marking where you were standing before
the car arrived.
Mark
Mark Radabaugh
Amplex
22690 Pemberville Rd
Luckey, OH 43443
419-837-5015 x 1021
419-261-5996 cell
m...@amplex.net


On Feb 3, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:








Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [AFMUG] IP Camera Reccomendations.

[Robert Andrews]

I didn't see anything like a complete guide to non-compliant cameras, 
it's just a page of optiview cameras...


On 2/2/23 09:58, Jan-GAMs wrote:
Here is a list of non-compliant: 
https://optiviewusa.com/articles/complete-guide-to-ndaa-compliant-surveillance-systems/


On 2/2/23 09:36, Josh Luthman wrote:
I have a couple of Axis cameras.  Overall decent. Motion 
sensing/recording is C- to my expectations but the best I've found.  I 
don't really want to record 24/7 and store it for a month...


On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 12:26 AM Seth Mattinen via AF  
wrote:



I use Axis, all of their stuff is NDAA compliant.



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Re: [AFMUG] IP Camera Reccomendations.

[Robert]

I don't think this is banned, but I run them secured from internet 
access


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZFYMXPM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8=1

On 2/1/23 3:54 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
Looking for some additional standards-based IP cameras to add to my 
system.  H.264, H.265, etc. Various types.  Dome, maybe 360 fisheye, 
and I think I need two more which are either a bit more directional or 
that I can swap the lens on since what I'm watching is a bit far from 
where I can mount the cameras.


Don't want something tied to a specific PVR which I think includes the 
UBNT cameras.


I would also prefer to avoid brands which are on the FCC banned list  
(https://www.fcc.gov/supplychain/coveredlist) or are known to have 
serious security issues which eliminates the HikVision cameras many of 
us used to use.  The ones I have already are on a separate subnet 
which is firewalled from the internet (no access except to my 
surveillance server), but I don't really want to add more if I can 
avoid it for a reasonable price.


What is everyone using?

--
- Forrest

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Re: [AFMUG] beet juice

[Robert]

What about RV antifreeze?  Non-toxic...

On 1/25/23 5:11 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Beet juice was a failed experiment too.  When it is good and cold it 
plugs up nozzles.  The stuff I tried was liquid.

Propylene Glycol is best and non toxic.  They put it in toothpaste.
*From:* Steve Jones
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 25, 2023 5:26 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* [AFMUG] beet juice
where does a guy look to find beetjuice for lowering water 
freezepoint that doesnt have other additives or salt in in? saline 
free beet brine if you will. Is beet soluble enough to get in powder 
form?



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Re: [AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central Office.kmz

[Robert]

R-4808N?   There are a boatload of R areas out there.  R-4808N is the 
golden ticket...


On 1/16/23 3:32 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Pretty sure this whole are Bill and Robert are talking about can be 
called Area 51.  I know that is not technically correct as they have 
had other area numbers out there but most folks would just say Area 
51.  I was warned to never stray into their airspace, but I think I 
got a clearance to fly through it once.  We had tactical call signs 
assigned by the military and we got to fly through other R areas 
before.  Telephone One was a M-20 and Telephone Two was a C-150.  Once 
they cleared me through at 150 agl or below.  I accepted the 
clearance.  That was a fun afternoon.  I think they were bluffing.


-Original Message- From: Jan-GAMs
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2023 2:20 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central Office.kmz

Isn't that the same flight that stops at area 51?

On 1/16/23 12:11, Bill Prince wrote:
When I was there, they had a daily "shuttle" that flew a couple dozen 
employees between there are Las Vegas. The gig I was on got me there 
on a weekly shuttle between Livermore CA and the private airport on 
site. Because I finished my part of the gig 4 days early, I was 
looking at no way to get back to the Bay Area for (maybe) 4 days 
until the weekly shuttle came around again.


There were zero commercial flights out of Tonopah, and their little 
airport, so I asked the proprietor at the motel if I could rent a car 
at the Tonopah airport. She replied that yes, I could rent a car at 
the airport. I said "Great! I want to rent a one-way to the Bay 
Area." She answered back, "Oh Joe (don't remember the real name) 
wouldn't let you do that with his car." Whoops.


In the end, one of the seats on the daily shuttle became "available", 
and I got out of there and to Las Vegas where I hopped a flight from 
there to SFO.



bp


On 1/16/2023 11:46 AM, Robert Andrews wrote:
Tonapah is also famous in weather circles for the "Tonapah Low"... 
Which is a lot like how you feel when you stay there...




On 1/16/23 10:15, Bill Prince wrote:
The nearby town where I stayed (it was a 3-day gig) is called 
Tonopah, which I was told was an Indian word meaning "little wood, 
little water". That was an understatement.



bp


On 1/16/2023 9:56 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I have flown around it a few times. Tikaboo Peak is nearby and I 
think on the edge of the restricted area.

I used to serve a town in Utah named Ticaboo.
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2023 10:18 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central 
Office.kmz


I don't know how much I can talk about it; needed a clearance (and 
escort) to be there.


bp

On 1/16/2023 8:32 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Looks like a place to get probed.
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2023 8:46 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central 
Office.kmz


Not so sure about that. I was at a place that felt like Nowhere 
back in 1978 (or79?). It sure looked and  felt like Nowhere.


bp

On 1/16/2023 7:01 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

If nowhere was on a map, this would be it.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> 


Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> 


The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>


<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
 



*From: *"Chuck McCown via AF" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*To: *af@af.afmug.com
*Cc: *"Chuck McCown" mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent: *Sunday, January 15, 2023 6:10:03 PM
*Subject: *[AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central Office.kmz


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Re: [AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central Office.kmz

[Robert Andrews]

You got to ride on Janet Airlines?  ( red strip 737's ) Janet is the 
call sign and some people say it stands for Just Another Non-Existant 
Terminal...


On 1/16/23 12:11, Bill Prince wrote:
When I was there, they had a daily "shuttle" that flew a couple dozen 
employees between there are Las Vegas. The gig I was on got me there on 
a weekly shuttle between Livermore CA and the private airport on site. 
Because I finished my part of the gig 4 days early, I was looking at no 
way to get back to the Bay Area for (maybe) 4 days until the weekly 
shuttle came around again.


There were zero commercial flights out of Tonopah, and their little 
airport, so I asked the proprietor at the motel if I could rent a car at 
the Tonopah airport. She replied that yes, I could rent a car at the 
airport. I said "Great! I want to rent a one-way to the Bay Area." She 
answered back, "Oh Joe (don't remember the real name) wouldn't let you 
do that with his car."  Whoops.


In the end, one of the seats on the daily shuttle became "available", 
and I got out of there and to Las Vegas where I hopped a flight from 
there to SFO.



bp


On 1/16/2023 11:46 AM, Robert Andrews wrote:
Tonapah is also famous in weather circles for the "Tonapah Low"... 
Which is a lot like how you feel when you stay there...




On 1/16/23 10:15, Bill Prince wrote:
The nearby town where I stayed (it was a 3-day gig) is called 
Tonopah, which I was told was an Indian word meaning "little wood, 
little water". That was an understatement.



bp


On 1/16/2023 9:56 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I have flown around it a few times. Tikaboo Peak is nearby and I 
think on the edge of the restricted area.

I used to serve a town in Utah named Ticaboo.
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2023 10:18 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central Office.kmz

I don't know how much I can talk about it; needed a clearance (and 
escort) to be there.


bp

On 1/16/2023 8:32 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Looks like a place to get probed.
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2023 8:46 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central 
Office.kmz


Not so sure about that. I was at a place that felt like Nowhere 
back in 1978 (or79?). It sure looked and  felt like Nowhere.


bp

On 1/16/2023 7:01 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

If nowhere was on a map, this would be it.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>


<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

*From: *"Chuck McCown via AF" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*To: *af@af.afmug.com
*Cc: *"Chuck McCown" mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent: *Sunday, January 15, 2023 6:10:03 PM
*Subject: *[AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central Office.kmz


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Re: [AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central Office.kmz

[Robert Andrews]

Tonapah is also famous in weather circles for the "Tonapah Low"... 
Which is a lot like how you feel when you stay there...




On 1/16/23 10:15, Bill Prince wrote:
The nearby town where I stayed (it was a 3-day gig) is called Tonopah, 
which I was told was an Indian word meaning "little wood, little water". 
That was an understatement.



bp


On 1/16/2023 9:56 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I have flown around it a few times.  Tikaboo Peak is nearby and I 
think on the edge of the restricted area.

I used to serve a town in Utah named Ticaboo.
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2023 10:18 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central Office.kmz

I don't know how much I can talk about it; needed a clearance (and 
escort) to be there.


bp

On 1/16/2023 8:32 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Looks like a place to get probed.
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2023 8:46 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central Office.kmz

Not so sure about that. I was at a place that felt like Nowhere back 
in 1978 (or79?). It sure looked and  felt like Nowhere.


bp

On 1/16/2023 7:01 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

If nowhere was on a map, this would be it.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Chuck McCown via AF" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*To: *af@af.afmug.com
*Cc: *"Chuck McCown" mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent: *Sunday, January 15, 2023 6:10:03 PM
*Subject: *[AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central Office.kmz


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Re: [AFMUG] Google Earth Placemark: Kolob Central Office.kmz

[Robert Andrews]

Went to one where I was black masked and everywhere was black curtains 
except on the desk where the computer I was working on sat.   Rolm 
Mil-Spec in the 80's


On 1/16/23 09:43, Larry Smith wrote:


LOL, been to a few of those.
Key point to remember is nowhere is now here also.



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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Mystery Antennas on SLC peaks

[Robert]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Network

On 1/14/23 8:31 AM, Bill Prince wrote:


It’s a mystery

Public lands officials in Salt Lake City are trying to solve a 
mystery: Who is placing antennae with solar panels on public property? 
KSL-TV reported on Jan. 4 that a few of the devices were found about a 
year ago, but more have been discovered in recent months. The locked 
battery boxes, solar panels and antennae “have been bolted into 
different peaks and summits and ridges around the foothills,” said 
Tyler Fonarow, the city’s recreational trails manager. He hopes to 
educate the public that items cannot be installed on public lands.

.


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Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor 24V PSU cabinet with batteries?

[Robert]

"request a quote"...  First red flag...

On 11/30/22 1:28 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

https://www.enersys.com/en/products/batteries/cyclon/cyclon/
*From:* Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2022 2:24 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Chuck McCown
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor 24V PSU cabinet with batteries?
There used to be a brand called genesys that could take freezing both 
for charge and discharge.

*From:* Nate Burke
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2022 1:00 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor 24V PSU cabinet with batteries?
If someone could just make a big hardened battery in an enclosure for 
cheap, that would be nice.  I could stand something the size of a 
forklift battery next to most of my enclosures.  Little box on the 
side with terminals to connect the leads to.


On 11/30/2022 1:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
we tried the jobsite boxes for our 190ah telco batteries, but you can 
only fit 2 batteries and maybe an apc in them. I went to a fabricator 
to see about building some custom cabinets. we had a good laugh, he 
wanted alot more than beer and pizza

On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:40 PM  wrote:

If you find one, let us know.

I think the issue is that ideal for you is not ideal for
everyone.   My ideal would be 48V with 4x100Ah batteries.

Someone else’s ideal is just gonna be an AC power strip and a
light bulb.

If there was one configuration that would outsell all others,
then someone would manufacture that box.

When I had to build outdoor enclosures on the cheap I used
jobsite toolboxes


https://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-32-in-W-x-19-in-H-x-19-in-L-Portable-Jobsite-Storage-Box-RB32/317120068

You can’t beat that price for that size enclosure.

Nowadays I’d build a shed if there’s space, or use DDB Unlimited
if there isn’t.  I get to play with big boy money now.

If you want something built custom to your needs then Alpha
Technologies will build whatever you want, but be sure to bring
your checkbook.

Or I’ll build whatever you want for a case of beer and a pizza. 
My lead times are long though.

-Adam

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Colin Stanners
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2022 12:43 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Outdoor 24V PSU cabinet with batteries?

Hi all,

Looking at options for tiny WISP sites - ideal would be a small
outdoor cabinet with 120VAC input, 2x 12V 12AH / 18AH batteries,
~27V charger/PSU around 5A and a temperature-controlled battery
blanket. Is there anything like that in the market so I don't
have to organize design/build?

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Re: [AFMUG] No joke, its real!!! ;-)

[Robert]

I can 100% confirm that it's not real on _my_ computer..

On 11/23/22 9:09 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
file:///C:/Users/chuck/Downloads/79e6f64a8466594c70a80f3932e455.pdf 



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Re: [AFMUG] Solar panel ice/snow buildup

[Robert]

This would be why they started making bi-facial solar panels, reflected 
ground illumination increases the panel output, according to some ads, 
as much as 20%... (YMMV)


On 11/11/22 5:25 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I never discovered any solution other than the foam.  You can point a 
separate panel or array at the ground so you can catch reflected light 
off the ground.  We discovered that by accident.


Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 11, 2022, at 4:01 PM, James Howard  wrote:



I have a vague memory of a thread in bygone years about testing 
different kinds of coatings to help with buildup of snow/ice but I 
can’t find the thread and don’t remember if it was about solar panels 
or dish antennas.


The only thing I can find when I search my archive is about using 
froth-pak on the back of the panels.  Are there any other options 
that work?


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Re: [AFMUG] OT youtube

[Robert]

He fired everyone on the algorithm teams...

On 11/6/22 3:22 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
One more thing..   if there is one thing musk's twitter acquisition 
accomplishes, I hope that it is that the algorithm is adjusted such 
that it is far harder to end up in your own personal echo chamber.


On Sat, Nov 5, 2022, 2:05 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

So, new computer, finally got icons displaying (My son has it set
up so he can take over my computer from everywhere and fix
whatever this old dad cannot figure out, love it).
Youtube viewed with new chrome on a new computer has quickly
figured out that I like to watch Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk
gotcha videos and is recommending nothing else other than right
wing gotcha stuff.  It is amusing, but I am wondering what does
the other side look like?  Is there a whole alternate youtube
universe of leftist gotcha videos that make fun of Ben Shapiro and
push all the left hot button issues.  lgbtq trans, crt, BLM,
defund the police, etc stuff 100% of the time etc.
Is youtube just right leaning?
Or is there no cogent left leaning content on par with a Ben
Shapiro type of thing?
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Re: [AFMUG] OT weddings

[Robert]

Congratulations!  Sounds like good decisions all around...

On 10/23/22 11:27 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Yesterday, my youngest daughter had a wedding reception.
They got married a year ago, but due to Covid they decided to not try 
a reception.
We had 8 kids, 7 surviving to adulthood, 5 married, 5 weddings, 5 
receptions.
This was the lowest stress reception ever.  Even considering one of my 
daughters is estranged from most of us but decided to show.  No 
scene.  (She just pretended her parents were invisible, OK with us).
So one less source of stress in my life.  Now, I just need to get my 
various companies built up to be good earners for the two sons that 
are taking over.  Once than is done I feel it is safe to die.


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Political

[Robert Andrews]

Not sure if he did a book, I was referring to his statement that he 
released...


On 10/11/22 09:55, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Haven’t read that one.  Ordering it now.
Yeah, the books that I have read that were written by his insiders all 
paint a uniform picture of him.  He does not seem able to absorb expert 
opinion and synthesize outputs from it.
I feel sorry for those generals that simply got brushed away when he 
didn’t like what they were telling him.  I know one general personally 
and he is one of the brightest persons I have ever met.  I presume you 
cannot become a general without having some brains.

*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2022 10:16 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Political
If "Mad Dog" was convinced enough to write about him, and you don't 
believe him, you are indoctrinated...


On 10/11/22 8:26 AM, Chuck Macenski wrote:
I think he loves what the country can do for him and is happy to 
divide the nation as a means to that end. Whatever good came from his 
administration's policies, I believe the collateral damage outweighs 
the benefit.

On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 9:56 AM  wrote:

Oh I’ll say it.  He doesn’t love this country.

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Rory Conaway
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2022 1:20 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Political

But you can’t say he doesn’t love this country and did some great
things for it .

Rory

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
via AF
*Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2022 8:31 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Cc:* Chuck McCown 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Political

Zero loyalty is a primary feature of Trump.  He would toss his
mother under the bus.  I have heard AOC say some anti demo stuff. 
Not much.


Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 10, 2022, at 9:19 PM, Robert 
wrote:

 the way that the trump cult vilifies any other position in
the _republican_ party is what sets them apart.   Does AOC
vilify Biden?

On 10/10/22 9:25 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:

The hypocrites on the right LOVE Elon Musk because they
think he'll reinstate Trump if he buys Twitter but they
also HATE EV's with a passion. There's plenty of
misinformation out there. I have driven a Tesla as my
daily for 4 years. I had the Model 3 first and now I have
the refreshed 2022 Model S and love both.

If you ever want to laugh and cry at some people that have
the lowest IQs in America and who are attending Trump
rallies, search "Jordan Klepper trump" on youtube and
watch some clips here. It's sad to see how "poorly
educated" some are. Anyone still supporting him today is
part of the cult. You can be Republican but not support
Trump but anyone else is far gone off the deep end.

On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 11:07 AM Carl Peterson
 wrote:

My thoughts, and they really are just thoughts on why
there is a large anti-EV contingent on the right:

- A lot of hot button "culture war" issues are really
being pushed by groups with an economic interest in an
issue.  In this case it is fossil fuel energy which is
a trillion dollar industry.  The world is moving
towards EVs a whole lot faster than a lot in the
industry expected.  It isn't surprising that wrenches
are thrown into the works whenever possible.

- Most current EVs are expensive.  Money and liberals
are more concentrated in urban areas.  It is easy to
believe FUD, funded by above, when it is targeted at a
group that is different form you.

On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 8:32 AM 
wrote:

Well the original description was “what is
important to be taught at school”.  In that
context, the chart made no sense at all.

If 78% of liberal democrats believe too little
time is spent on racial issues in school then that
does make sense.

*From:* Chuck McCown 
*Sent:* Friday, October 07, 2022 4:45 PM
*To:* dmmoff...@gmail.com; 'AnimalFarm Microwave
Users Group' 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Political

I left out an important detail, that graphic was
the “too little” response.

Full article can be found in today’s Deseret News.

*From:*Chuck McCown via AF

*Sent:*Friday, October 7, 2022 1:00 PM

Re: [AFMUG] OT Political

[Robert]

I just saw that The Rock is definitely off the ballot...

On 10/10/22 11:48 PM, Darin Steffl wrote:

Rory,

How can anyone say trump loves this country? He hates or is 
indifferent to most everyone in it. He's a narcissist that ONLY cares 
about himself. He doesn't care about you, me, or anyone that disagrees 
with him.


He's tossed aside and stuck his mob of cult followers on anyone who 
disobeys him, including people who work for him in office and during 
campaigns. One mistake and he tells everyone you're worthless or 
against him, then the targets of his hate start receiving death 
threats from his followers. He's the least loyal person in office.


The people still going to his rallies are mindless sheep. I've watched 
dozens of interviews and the conspiracies people share are insane. JFK 
Jr is still alive, Biden is really Obama with a mask on, 5G is mind 
control, microchips in vaccines, etc. Their IQ levels are lower than 
low. Anyone with a brain sees through trump's lies. I hope his 
supporters snap out of the hypnosis soon.


You're not supposed to worship politicians. I voted for Biden because 
he's a decent human being but I don't make him my entire personality 
like trumpers do. I have no merchandise, I don't think he was sent by 
God, I don't praise him or think he's perfect, I disagree with some 
things like a normal person should.


2024 better offer us some better choices than Biden/Trump.

On Tue, Oct 11, 2022, 12:26 AM Rory Conaway  
wrote:


But you can’t say he doesn’t love this country and did some great
things for it .

Rory

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Chuck McCown
via AF
*Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2022 8:31 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Cc:* Chuck McCown 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Political

Zero loyalty is a primary feature of Trump.  He would toss his
mother under the bus.  I have heard AOC say some anti demo stuff. 
Not much.

Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 10, 2022, at 9:19 PM, Robert 
wrote:

 the way that the trump cult vilifies any other position in
the _republican_ party is what sets them apart.   Does AOC
vilify Biden?

On 10/10/22 9:25 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:

The hypocrites on the right LOVE Elon Musk because they
think he'll reinstate Trump if he buys Twitter but they
also HATE EV's with a passion. There's plenty of
misinformation out there. I have driven a Tesla as my
daily for 4 years. I had the Model 3 first and now I have
the refreshed 2022 Model S and love both.

If you ever want to laugh and cry at some people that have
the lowest IQs in America and who are attending Trump
rallies, search "Jordan Klepper trump" on youtube and
watch some clips here. It's sad to see how "poorly
educated" some are. Anyone still supporting him today is
part of the cult. You can be Republican but not support
Trump but anyone else is far gone off the deep end.

On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 11:07 AM Carl Peterson
 wrote:

My thoughts, and they really are just thoughts on why
there is a large anti-EV contingent on the right:

- A lot of hot button "culture war" issues are really
being pushed by groups with an economic interest in an
issue.  In this case it is fossil fuel energy which is
a trillion dollar industry.  The world is moving
towards EVs a whole lot faster than a lot in the
industry expected.  It isn't surprising that wrenches
are thrown into the works whenever possible.

- Most current EVs are expensive.  Money and liberals
are more concentrated in urban areas.  It is easy to
believe FUD, funded by above, when it is targeted at a
group that is different form you.

On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 8:32 AM 
wrote:

Well the original description was “what is
important to be taught at school”.  In that
context, the chart made no sense at all.

If 78% of liberal democrats believe too little
time is spent on racial issues in school then that
does make sense.

*From:* Chuck McCown 
*Sent:* Friday, October 07, 2022 4:45 PM
*To:* dmmoff...@gmail.com; 'AnimalFarm Microwave
Users Group' 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Political

I left out an important detail, that graphic was
the “too little” response.

Full article can be found in today’s Deseret News.

Re: [AFMUG] OT: about time

[Robert]

Pot wasn't the issue, hemp was, it was a big competitor to cotton.   
Actually made longer lasting fabrics for industrial uses...


On 10/8/22 9:34 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:
Hearst had a rather large part in making it illegal in the first 
place, but I'm guessing it was politically expedient for a few people.


On Saturday, October 8, 2022, Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

How did pot ever get put on sch 1 in the first place?
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Saturday, October 8, 2022 8:35 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: about time

I talked to my nephew yesterday, and he told me it was a sting
operation. His friend had 3 ounces, and the fed asked to "buy
some". They sent him up for 10 years and he got out in 8. At the
time he was 21 years old.

IMO, the whole drug classification system is broken, and is mostly
a tail wagging the dog operation.

bp


On 10/8/2022 2:23 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

My guy was in Nevada state prison as I recall.  He said it was
due to the three strikes law and was due to pot possession.  I
presumed with intent to distribute.  I always thought it was a
shame.  No idea if he was telling the truth.  Was an employee,
was on probation at the time.  He was a thief and stole from the
company but I handled that internally in an attempt to help him
out.  In the end he screwed himself.

Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 7, 2022, at 10:53 PM, Cameron Crum
mailto:cc...@murcevilo.com wrote:


I would tend to agree with this, steve. If you're in federal
prison for marijuana it's because you got busted for a quantity
that was enough to distribute. You may have pled down to simple
possession to avoid having to go to trial where you probably
would have gotten a much larger sentence but the feds aren't out
making traffic stops and busting people for having a dime bag in
their car. Anyway, presidents can pardon whoever they want for
whatever reason they want. This is a vote buy plain and simple.
If Congress wants to change the law then it's up to them, but
this is pandering at best and does nothing to stop it going
forward after this soft on crime administration leaves office.
Congress should get off their ass and change the law or people
should pay for doing the crimes. That's how it's supposed to work.
On Fri, Oct 7, 2022, 11:49 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

Nobody goes to federal prison for just simple possession of
marijuana. I so hate that tripe. Just like the third striker
who went up for life for stealing a pack of gum. He went for
committing too many crimes and still stealing gum when he
knew the consequenses
First of you go to prison for felonies, not misdemeanors. So
theres no "simple possession" it's a word game to make it
sou d like Johnny quire boy got 10 large for a joint. No,
Johnny had carry weight and got nabbed cause hes not very
good at being a criminal.
I'll be glad when they decide whether the classification of
marijuana is a mid term or 2024 vote purchase so this is all
behind us anyway.
It's sad that something that should ha e been changed
decades ago keeps being pocketed as a hail mary for a losing
election team
On Thu, Oct 6, 2022, 9:05 PM Robert 
wrote:

Brother of a friend got sentenced for simple possession,
went to the big house and raped by white supremists.. 
joined them to keep from getting killed, got aids and
then used as a pawn by same WS and convicted of
threatening the governor..  So wrong on so many levels...

On 10/6/22 5:29 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I know a guy that got life for weed under the three
strikes law back in the late 1980s. Last time he saw me
he said: “fuck chuck, you can kill somebody and only
get 15 years. This is crazy”  I don’t know if he ever
got out.
*From:* Darin Steffl
*Sent:* Thursday, October 6, 2022 6:00 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: about time
Took long enough. No one should be in prison for simple
possession of weed. It turns non-violent criminals into
something worse than that. I'm sure it's traumatizing
for those incarcerated for something that didn't hurt
anyone.
Why put people in prison for weed but sentence people
way less time, or not at all, for physical abuse,
battery, sex crimes, etc? It's sick!
We see too many black people in prison for weed but
white people get charged less or are released on
probation for rape with evidence. Particularly, young
 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: about time

[Robert]

Brother of a friend got sentenced for simple possession, went to the big 
house and raped by white supremists.. joined them to keep from getting 
killed, got aids and then used as a pawn by same WS and convicted of 
threatening the governor..  So wrong on so many levels...


On 10/6/22 5:29 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I know a guy that got life for weed under the three strikes law back 
in the late 1980s.    Last time he saw me he said: “fuck chuck, you 
can kill somebody and only get 15 years.  This is crazy”  I don’t know 
if he ever got out.

*From:* Darin Steffl
*Sent:* Thursday, October 6, 2022 6:00 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: about time
Took long enough. No one should be in prison for simple possession of 
weed. It turns non-violent criminals into something worse than that. 
I'm sure it's traumatizing for those incarcerated for something that 
didn't hurt anyone.
Why put people in prison for weed but sentence people way less time, 
or not at all, for physical abuse, battery, sex crimes, etc? It's sick!
We see too many black people in prison for weed but white people get 
charged less or are released on probation for rape with evidence. 
Particularly, young white men who "have a future" and the judge 
wouldn't want to ruin their life. Forget about the woman they raped, 
it's just boys being boys.
Obviously not every judge is a shit head racist, but some of them are 
and they should be weeded out. The US incarcerates way too many people 
as a whole.

On Thu, Oct 6, 2022, 4:44 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

My nephew has a close friend who was sent up 8 years for
possession of 2
or 3 ounces of weed. I think he got a couple years off for good
behavior
or something, but the kid wasn't even 21.



https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/10/06/statement-from-president-biden-on-marijuana-reform/

-- 
bp




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Re: [AFMUG] OSPF Pulling my hair out

[Robert Haas]

Make sure you haven't duplicated your router id.



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Nate Burke
Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2022 1:58 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] OSPF Pulling my hair out

I have a site with a RB4011 connected via an old M5 Powerbridge, and an EPMP 
PTP425.  The 4011 is running ROSv7, everything else is on ROSv6. Connecting to 
a CCR1036 and CCR1009 on the other ends of the radios.

Everything was working perfectly for several months until a storm came through, 
and now the F425 OSPF Session will not stay stable. The OSPF Weights are set to 
prefer the F425 link.  The OSPF neighbor never goes down, Adjacency/state never 
change, but the RB4011 will update it's entire routing table about every 5 
seconds and flap back and forth between the Powerbridge and the F425.  The 
remote routers never update the route to the 4011, it is stable over the F425.  
If I disable the
F425 neighbor, everything is stable over the powerbridge.  If I disable the 
Powerbridge neighbor, the router will lose connectivity for a second every 10 
or 15 seconds, like it loses it's routing table.

There is no packet loss across the F425 link, and it will Tik to Tik bw test at 
100MB sync no problem and no packet loss.  I've even tried changing ports on 
the 4011, plugging the F425 into a completely separate OSPF router on the 
remote end.  I've also put the traffic through a VLAN on the F425 to see if the 
F425 was doing something weird with the packets.  The F425 radios on both ends 
have been power cycled.  I've also updated ROS to the latest 7beta, and no 
change.

I'd think this is an issue with ROSv7/6 since the routing table keeps updating, 
but the powerbridge link is always fine, so it feels like something with the 
F425.  Especially since it happened after a storm. 
But at the same time, how could a failure of the F425 be affecting OSPF?  When 
I do OSPF Logging on the 4011, nothing is looking out of the ordinary.  I guess 
I could try physically changing the 4011, but I've never had a failure like 
that before.

Mainly I just want to vent that I'm probably missing something stupid, I just 
haven't been able to figure out what it is yet.


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

[Robert]

Vger

On 8/31/22 2:58 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

https://youtu.be/kHUZCVl28lg
*From:* Daniel Pautz via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 3:51 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Cc:* Daniel Pautz
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

I thought the star trek one was Pioneer 1?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 3:47 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* Chuck McCown 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

Nope, did you not watch Star Trek?

*From:*Bill Prince

*Sent:*Wednesday, August 31, 2022 3:06 PM

*To:*af@af.afmug.com

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

The Voyager probes don't use solar; they are nuke powered. There is 
pretty much no actual sun out where they are now anyway. Their EOL is 
coming around pretty darn soon though.


bp


On 8/31/2022 10:13 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I was taught, many years ago, that minority (might have been
majority) charge carrier migration in semiconductors would render
them useless in 20 years.  Also solar panels are supposed to wear
out in 20 years. And cosmic rays kill all semiconductors.  etc
etc  Danged good modulation they are using whatever it is.  I
think it was some kind of pseudo random noise code but I may be
wrong about that.  A professor in an analog class told me that
almost 40 years ago.

*From:*dmmoff...@gmail.com

*Sent:*Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:08 AM

*To:*'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

*Cc:*'Chuck McCown'

*Subject:*RE: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

I’d bet a smaller codebase helps.  No gigabytes of libraries to debug.

But yeah, if something I built lasted 45 years in outer space I’d
pat myself on the back a bit.

*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Chuck
McCown via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:50 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] OT Voyager

This space vehicle launched 45 years ago started sending garbage
telemetry.  The folks running that show figured it was routing the
data through a known defective computer.

So they commanded it to switch to the good computer and they got
good telemetry.

Talk about latency... 16 hours.

So 45 (more likely 55) year old hardware running an OS that old is
still essentially rocks solid.  So are the transmitters and
receivers and other RF components allowing communication clear out
into deep space.

Damn, those engineers and coders must be proud of the job they did.





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Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

[Robert]

No moving parts, not generating through reaction, just through decay...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator

On 8/31/22 10:37 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
In order to generate 470 watts electrical, you would need something 
like 10kW thermal.  Thermal to electric conversion methods are 
horribly inefficient.  So out on that boom they have had a 10kW 
glowing chunk of metal all this time.  Or did they have multiple 
chunks that they moved together to react?  In any event, that is a 
bunch of heat to get rid of.  They must have had a way to turn it up 
because getting 10 kW out of the launch vehicle would have been a huge 
problem.

*From:* Daniel Pautz via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:30 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Cc:* Daniel Pautz
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

I read this a few years back. 
https://www.universetoday.com/142802/nasa-has-figured-out-how-to-extend-the-lives-of-the-voyagers-even-longer/


They launched making 470 watts and down to a whopping 270 watts in 2011

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Robert
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:27 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

baby nuke=thermal generator, pu based..?

On 8/31/22 10:23 AM, Daniel Pautz via AF wrote:

Though these two guys didn’t have solar panels,  good old baby
nuke on board.

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Chuck
McCown via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:13 AM
*To:* dmmoff...@gmail.com; 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

I was taught, many years ago, that minority (might have been
majority) charge carrier migration in semiconductors would render
them useless in 20 years.  Also solar panels are supposed to wear
out in 20 years.  And cosmic rays kill all semiconductors.  etc
etc  Danged good modulation they are using whatever it is.  I
think it was some kind of pseudo random noise code but I may be
wrong about that.  A professor in an analog class told me that
almost 40 years ago.

*From:*dmmoff...@gmail.com

*Sent:*Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:08 AM

*To:*'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

*Cc:*'Chuck McCown'

*Subject:*RE: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

I’d bet a smaller codebase helps.  No gigabytes of libraries to debug.

But yeah, if something I built lasted 45 years in outer space I’d
pat myself on the back a bit.

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:50 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* Chuck McCown 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] OT Voyager

This space vehicle launched 45 years ago started sending garbage
telemetry.  The folks running that show figured it was routing the
data through a known defective computer.

So they commanded it to switch to the good computer and they got
good telemetry.

Talk about latency... 16 hours.

So 45 (more likely 55) year old hardware running an OS that old is
still essentially rocks solid. So are the transmitters and
receivers and other RF components allowing communication clear out
into deep space.

Damn, those engineers and coders must be proud of the job they did.




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Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

[Robert]

These RTGs are an issue for future probes due to nobody making the 
Pu-238 available...  Besides the change in position of launching those 
kind of risks..   I believe a russian one came down in Canada and 
created quite the mess...


On 8/31/22 10:31 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
oyager 1 has three*radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs) 
mounted on a boom*. Each MHW-RTG contains 24 pressed plutonium-238 
oxide spheres. The RTGs generated about 470 W of electric power at the 
time of launch, with the remainder being dissipated as waste heat.

87.7 year half life.
*From:* Daniel Pautz via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:23 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Cc:* Daniel Pautz
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

Though these two guys didn’t have solar panels,  good old baby nuke on 
board.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:13 AM
*To:* dmmoff...@gmail.com; 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 


*Cc:* Chuck McCown 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

I was taught, many years ago, that minority (might have been majority) 
charge carrier migration in semiconductors would render them useless 
in 20 years.  Also solar panels are supposed to wear out in 20 years.  
And cosmic rays kill all semiconductors.  etc etc  Danged good 
modulation they are using whatever it is. I think it was some kind of 
pseudo random noise code but I may be wrong about that.  A professor 
in an analog class told me that almost 40 years ago.


*From:*dmmoff...@gmail.com

*Sent:*Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:08 AM

*To:*'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

*Cc:*'Chuck McCown'

*Subject:*RE: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

I’d bet a smaller codebase helps.  No gigabytes of libraries to debug.

But yeah, if something I built lasted 45 years in outer space I’d pat 
myself on the back a bit.


*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:50 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* Chuck McCown 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] OT Voyager

This space vehicle launched 45 years ago started sending garbage 
telemetry.  The folks running that show figured it was routing the 
data through a known defective computer.


So they commanded it to switch to the good computer and they got good 
telemetry.


Talk about latency... 16 hours.

So 45 (more likely 55) year old hardware running an OS that old is 
still essentially rocks solid.  So are the transmitters and receivers 
and other RF components allowing communication clear out into deep space.


Damn, those engineers and coders must be proud of the job they did.


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

[Robert]

Yup, at Rolm the core memory team was all women...  finer touch.

On 8/31/22 10:29 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I remember seeing movies when I was a kid of women sewing these things 
by hand.

*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:24 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager
Almost certainly using core memory, not subject to cosmic ray damage.  
Used to have it on Rolm Mil-Spec computers.   Turn off system, turn it 
back on, right where it was before...


On 8/31/22 10:13 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I was taught, many years ago, that minority (might have been 
majority) charge carrier migration in semiconductors would render 
them useless in 20 years.  Also solar panels are supposed to wear out 
in 20 years.  And cosmic rays kill all semiconductors.  etc etc  
Danged good modulation they are using whatever it is.  I think it was 
some kind of pseudo random noise code but I may be wrong about that.  
A professor in an analog class told me that almost 40 years ago.

*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:08 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Cc:* 'Chuck McCown'
*Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

I’d bet a smaller codebase helps.  No gigabytes of libraries to debug.

But yeah, if something I built lasted 45 years in outer space I’d pat 
myself on the back a bit.


*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown 
via AF

*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:50 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] OT Voyager

This space vehicle launched 45 years ago started sending garbage 
telemetry.  The folks running that show figured it was routing the 
data through a known defective computer.


So they commanded it to switch to the good computer and they got good 
telemetry.


Talk about latency... 16 hours.

So 45 (more likely 55) year old hardware running an OS that old is 
still essentially rocks solid. So are the transmitters and receivers 
and other RF components allowing communication clear out into deep 
space.


Damn, those engineers and coders must be proud of the job they did.





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Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

[Robert]

I have to think the frequencies chosen probably give a pretty low 
background noise


On 8/31/22 10:25 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
3.2.2.4 Telemetry Modulation. The telemetry comes to the telemetry 
modulation unit (TMU) separately as a “low-rate” channel and a 
“high-rate” channel. Low rate is 40 bps only and its routing through 
the TMU is such that it can only be downlinked as uncoded bits. High 
rate, one of a set of rates between 10 bps and 115.2 kilobits per 
second (kbps), is downlinked as coded symbols. The TMU encodes the 
high-rate data stream with a convolutional code having constraint 
length of 7 and a symbol rate equal to twice the bit rate (k = 7, r = 
1/2). Either modulator can biphase-modulate the telemetry symbols onto 
either a 22.5-kilohertz (kHz) or a 360-kHz subcarrier. A subcarrier is 
a symmetrical square wave signal derived from a TMU crystal oscillator 
that has a nominal frequency of 2.88 MHz. The 360-kHz subcarrier is 
required for bit rates greater than 7.2 kbps. The TMU has one 
modulator for the S-band downlink and another for X-band downlink. The 
modulated subcarrier goes to the S- or X-band exciter.

So, the same as original Canopy.
*From:* Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:13 AM
*To:* dmmoff...@gmail.com ; 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Cc:* Chuck McCown
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager
I was taught, many years ago, that minority (might have been majority) 
charge carrier migration in semiconductors would render them useless 
in 20 years. Also solar panels are supposed to wear out in 20 years.  
And cosmic rays kill all semiconductors.  etc etc  Danged good 
modulation they are using whatever it is.  I think it was some kind of 
pseudo random noise code but I may be wrong about that.  A professor 
in an analog class told me that almost 40 years ago.

*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:08 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Cc:* 'Chuck McCown'
*Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

I’d bet a smaller codebase helps.  No gigabytes of libraries to debug.

But yeah, if something I built lasted 45 years in outer space I’d pat 
myself on the back a bit.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:50 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* Chuck McCown 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] OT Voyager

This space vehicle launched 45 years ago started sending garbage 
telemetry.  The folks running that show figured it was routing the 
data through a known defective computer.


So they commanded it to switch to the good computer and they got good 
telemetry.


Talk about latency... 16 hours.

So 45 (more likely 55) year old hardware running an OS that old is 
still essentially rocks solid.  So are the transmitters and receivers 
and other RF components allowing communication clear out into deep space.


Damn, those engineers and coders must be proud of the job they did.


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

[Robert]

baby nuke=thermal generator, pu based..?

On 8/31/22 10:23 AM, Daniel Pautz via AF wrote:


Though these two guys didn’t have solar panels,  good old baby nuke on 
board.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:13 AM
*To:* dmmoff...@gmail.com; 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 


*Cc:* Chuck McCown 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

I was taught, many years ago, that minority (might have been majority) 
charge carrier migration in semiconductors would render them useless 
in 20 years.  Also solar panels are supposed to wear out in 20 years.  
And cosmic rays kill all semiconductors.  etc etc  Danged good 
modulation they are using whatever it is.  I think it was some kind of 
pseudo random noise code but I may be wrong about that.  A professor 
in an analog class told me that almost 40 years ago.


*From:*dmmoff...@gmail.com

*Sent:*Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:08 AM

*To:*'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

*Cc:*'Chuck McCown'

*Subject:*RE: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

I’d bet a smaller codebase helps.  No gigabytes of libraries to debug.

But yeah, if something I built lasted 45 years in outer space I’d pat 
myself on the back a bit.


*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:50 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* Chuck McCown 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] OT Voyager

This space vehicle launched 45 years ago started sending garbage 
telemetry.  The folks running that show figured it was routing the 
data through a known defective computer.


So they commanded it to switch to the good computer and they got good 
telemetry.


Talk about latency... 16 hours.

So 45 (more likely 55) year old hardware running an OS that old is 
still essentially rocks solid.  So are the transmitters and receivers 
and other RF components allowing communication clear out into deep space.


Damn, those engineers and coders must be proud of the job they did.


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

[Robert]

Almost certainly using core memory, not subject to cosmic ray damage.  
Used to have it on Rolm Mil-Spec computers.   Turn off system, turn it 
back on, right where it was before...


On 8/31/22 10:13 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I was taught, many years ago, that minority (might have been majority) 
charge carrier migration in semiconductors would render them useless 
in 20 years.  Also solar panels are supposed to wear out in 20 years.  
And cosmic rays kill all semiconductors.  etc etc  Danged good 
modulation they are using whatever it is.  I think it was some kind of 
pseudo random noise code but I may be wrong about that.  A professor 
in an analog class told me that almost 40 years ago.

*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:08 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Cc:* 'Chuck McCown'
*Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] OT Voyager

I’d bet a smaller codebase helps.  No gigabytes of libraries to debug.

But yeah, if something I built lasted 45 years in outer space I’d pat 
myself on the back a bit.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:50 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* Chuck McCown 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] OT Voyager

This space vehicle launched 45 years ago started sending garbage 
telemetry. The folks running that show figured it was routing the data 
through a known defective computer.


So they commanded it to switch to the good computer and they got good 
telemetry.


Talk about latency... 16 hours.

So 45 (more likely 55) year old hardware running an OS that old is 
still essentially rocks solid.  So are the transmitters and receivers 
and other RF components allowing communication clear out into deep space.


Damn, those engineers and coders must be proud of the job they did.


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Re: [AFMUG] OT: extra-small 10/100 ethernet switch/repeater

[Robert]

get a tempest

On 8/16/22 12:36 PM, Bill Prince wrote:


We have this Davis Vantage Pro 2 weather station. We've had it for at 
least 12 or 14 years. For quite some time, we had it in our utility 
room where it was out of the way. Because the utility room was kind of 
central to the main part of the house, we also had our WiFi AP located 
in that room, and they both ran off a small (Netgear) 5-port switch, 
which relayed to our router at the far end of the house. Never had a 
problem with it.


We recently started refreshing the utility room. Nothing drastic, just 
fresh floor, paint, and trim. In the process we moved the WAP to a 
place we call "the alcove", which is still fairly centrally located, 
but has better clearance to the outside/deck area. So we moved the 
switch there and put our VoIP phones on the switch with the WAP.


So the weather station is now on a dedicated ethernet connection back 
to the router. Suddenly the weather station "stalls out" after a bunch 
of "excessive collision/speed mismatch" errors. Sometimes it runs for 
4 or 5 hours, sometimes it runs a day or two, but always gets to the 
stalling out phase after a bunch of ethernet errors.


So I started looking into the ethernet interface on the weather 
station. Turns out, it's an obsolete data logger contraption that 
Davis no longer makes, and it runs 10Base-T half duplex. Erg. I got 
into the router and set the port that it's on to 10/half dux, and it 
actually seems to run longer this way, but still gets to the too many 
errors condition after a while.


I think I've come to the conclusion that the funky little data logger 
goober on the weather station is just not very robust. I think if I 
put another switch or ethernet repeater co-located with the weather 
station, I can get it back to the state of mostly working (or at least 
with a stall rate that is measured in months/years instead of 
hours/days).


So what I'm looking for is the smallest/tiniest ethernet switch (or 
maybe just a repeater) that can be installed on the wall next to the 
weather station console as possible. This may be difficult, as the 
Netgear fast switch we had there is only 4x4 inches. Just wondering if 
there was something even smaller?


The other option is (maybe) a Raspberry Pi that has two ethernet ports 
on it? We run the weather station with a Raspberry Pi 3 that is 
located elsewhere on the LAN, but it only has 1 ethernet port. If 
there was one with two, I could just plop the pi next to the weather 
station.





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