Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idea to increase Headroom with lossless volume change
Mnyb wrote: Would a more natural signal that just touches 0dB for one sample be a problem to? Yes. Is this really limited to asrc ? could not any digital filter used have this problem . It is a problem in any situation where you have to interpolate between two samples, so most DSP operations are susceptible. It's just easier to explain in the context of sample rate conversion (especially upsampling). Imagine you have an original signal that has two consecutive samples at 0dB. If you are upsampling to double the sample rate, you will insert a sample between the two old samples and interpolate - and it is pretty clear that the interpolated value is higher than 0 dB. Wish I had time to draw the picture Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98706 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idea to increase Headroom with lossless volume change
Chaps, Think about it, even the DAC2 does not accommodate arbitrarily large peaks! The HA thread indicates some are up to 11db and a BM guy pops up saying you can get more headroom by not maxing the volume. That right there should tell us that we shouldn't assume a DAC just deals with it. I wonder whether what is trivial off-line is less easy in real-time? Or would a sacrifice in SNR be required, which the marketing department would hate? Not sure. Darren Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98706 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Confused by the digital formats
heisenberg wrote: An interesting thing happened to me yesterday. I've purchased Les Nubians Princesses Nubiennes CD and ripped it to AIFF and then sat down to listen in amazement. Why in amazement? Because I've previously had that CD ripped in 320 kbps mp3 format and was listening to it for years, so I am intimately familiar with the material and with the sound quality (the origin of those mp3s is a bit, erm, shady). But now, when listening to the same material on lossless AIFF, the differences in the sound quality were, to say the least, stunning. Suddenly, the soundstage opened, the bass extended deep down, the highs became 'civilized' and silky, and on and on, I could rant the whole day about the improvements. So my question is: are the perceived differences to be attributed to the differences in formats (lossy vs. lossless), or to the differences in ripping the contents of the CD? (fyi, I've used the regular iTunes ripping procedure). So you compared a lossy rip of a CD which maybe from a different release/master with a new lossless CD rip and you expected them to sound the same? Was this a proper ABX test? I'm guessing not. The comparison is completely invalid as a test of lossy vs lossless. The only way to do that is to take the lossless rip you just did and convert it at varying bitrates and ABX each lossy copy against the original lossless. That way you'll check when you can start to hear a difference, if at all. probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98591 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idea to increase Headroom with lossless volume change
darrenyeats wrote: Chaps, Think about it, even the DAC2 does not accommodate -arbitrarily large- peaks. The HA thread indicates some are up to 11db and a BM guy pops up saying you can get more than 3.5db headroom by not maxing the volume. That right there tells us not to assume anything. I wonder whether what is trivial off-line is less easy (or requires a sacrifice in SNR, which the marketing department would hate) in real time? Not sure. Darren Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2 Maybe it's best then just to NOT do any upsampling if this is the case - jitter be damned! Will have to look into this further this weekend... The Raw Power CD with DR1 might be an interesting case in extreme clipping if one were to upsample and see where these peaks lie. I remain a bit disturbed that the DAC1 would perform upsampling without *some* amplitude headroom... I really want to see evidence of this like the Ken Rockwell square wave spectrum plot between max volume and maybe -6 dB to look for harmonic changes. I might have a peek at this with my Essence One with without upsampling enabled to see if ASUS did it right. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98706 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Idea to increase Headroom with lossless volume change
Julf wrote: Wish I had time to draw the picture Found a very good discussion on the topic: 'Gearsluz - Tips and techniques: Intersample peaks' (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showwiki.php?title=Tips-and-Techniques:Intersample-peaks) A relevant quote: Ceilings of .3 or .1 etc dBFS are arbitrary. What matters are the real/intersample/reconstructed peaks. Clean processing only produces fractions of dB's overshot, aggressive loudness treatments can make for several dB's, and worst case signals can in some situations give two digit numbers of dB's overshot! Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98706 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Confused by the digital formats
probedb wrote: So you compared a lossy rip of a CD which maybe from a different release/master with a new lossless CD rip and you expected them to sound the same? Was this a proper ABX test? I'm guessing not. The comparison is completely invalid as a test of lossy vs lossless. The only way to do that is to take the lossless rip you just did and convert it at varying bitrates and ABX each lossy copy against the original lossless. That way you'll check when you can start to hear a difference, if at all. Oh and the ABX will just make you aware that you can hear a difference not necessarily that one is better. I think I'll ask my friend Bender Rodriguez to run these tests for me. heisenberg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98591 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
My opinion piece on digital cables (but much applies to analogue as well). This one could make some folks unhappy! TGIF! Enjoy the weekend, everyone! http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/05/musings-audiophile-digital-cables.html Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New Humor in latest TAS
Archimago wrote: I would still argue (ultra-kamikaze-like) that if one could tell a difference between FLAC vs. WAV vs. AIFF vs. APE vs. WV vs. ALAC, then there's *something wrong with their hardware*! To actually hear a difference (not just bias of some sort) should not be like some badge of honor to the audiophile IMO. It's actually a bad thing suggesting corruption of the sound due to some form of processing/decoding and the piece of hardware should be examined for fault - not capable of distortion-free bit-perfection! well, SC is converting ALAC to FLAC using faad/sox, so i guess the difference I'm hearing is actually between FLAC and AIFF, both of which are converted natively by the TP. and would it surprise you to learn i hear a difference between wired and wireless to the TP, and prefer the former? what ever bias might be involved, i assure you it's an inconvenient one- running ethernet to my system was a pain in the ass. netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98630 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New Humor in latest TAS
netchord wrote: well, SC is converting ALAC to FLAC using faad/sox, so i guess the difference I'm hearing is actually between FLAC and AIFF, both of which are converted natively by the TP. and would it surprise you to learn i hear a difference between wired and wireless to the TP, and prefer the former? what ever bias might be involved, i assure you it's an inconvenient one- running ethernet to my system was a pain in the ass. I am no psychologist but isn´t that exactly how it works? You had much work with bringing the cable to the device so now it must be better? Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98630 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: My opinion piece on digital cables (but much applies to analogue as well). This one could make some folks unhappy! TGIF! Enjoy the weekend, everyone! http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/05/musings-audiophile-digital-cables.html Good piece! Your experiment in using one half of an analogue interconnect as a coaxial digital cable is particularly interesting to me, as I use one half of a 3 or 4 metre analogue interconnect to connect my Touch to my DAC, because it's the only cable I own which is long enough (I want my Touch on my coffee table, where I can, er... touch it). The cable was £10 GBP I think for the stereo pair. (Radio Shack/Maplin or similar, I can't remember, it used to link my Nicam TV to my amp before the digital era.) The only audiophile approved digital cable I own is a QED one, (£35 GBP), and I've tried that, as well as a basic optical cable, and my informal testing (no ABX or measurements!) shows no difference. But then I suppose, to be sure, I should see if there is a difference between using the left as opposed to right half of my cable :). I can say, however, that the music is strangely unsafisfying when I connect the left channel of the cable to my Touch and the right channel to my DAC - what could be going on here? ;) darrell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13460 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
darrell wrote: Good piece! Your experiment in using one half of an analogue interconnect as a coaxial digital cable is particularly interesting to me, as I use one half of a 3 or 4 metre analogue interconnect to connect my Touch to my DAC, because it's the only cable I own which is long enough (I want my Touch on my coffee table, where I can, er... touch it). The cable was £10 GBP I think for the stereo pair. (Radio Shack/Maplin or similar, I can't remember, it used to link my Nicam TV to my amp before the digital era.) The only audiophile approved digital cable I own is a QED one, (£35 GBP), and I've tried that, as well as a basic optical cable, and my informal testing (no ABX or measurements!) shows no difference. But then I suppose, to be sure, I should see if there is a difference between using the left as opposed to right half of my cable :). I can say, however, that the music is strangely unsafisfying when I connect the left channel of the cable to my Touch and the right channel to my DAC - what could be going on here? ;) Dunno about that right-left issue, but I think if you investigate the directional flow issue, you would see that there is only *one* correct direction. Connecting backwards and you're sure to be hearing curtains between you and the music. Just ask the guys running that cable ad... They'll set you straight! :-) Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: Dunno about that right-left issue, but I think if you investigate the directional flow issue, you would see that there is only *one* correct direction. Connecting backwards and you're sure to be hearing curtains between you and the music. Just ask the guys running that cable ad... They'll set you straight! :-) Hmmm... I think I understand that on the surface of it, the left-right issue might be caused by the lack of an electrical connection between the two components, but on the other hand, wouldn't special audiophile quantum tunnelling effects ensure that the music still got through? (And with more purity, too, given that a theoretical path for transmission of interference would be removed?) Seriously, though, thanks again for your illuminating posts here and on your blog - it was obviously no small effort, but well worth it, as you have increased the signal to noise ratio of the audiophile parts of the internet. darrell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13460 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New Humor in latest TAS
netchord wrote: well, SC is converting ALAC to FLAC using faad/sox, so i guess the difference I'm hearing is actually between FLAC and AIFF, both of which are converted natively by the TP. and would it surprise you to learn i hear a difference between wired and wireless to the TP, and prefer the former? what ever bias might be involved, i assure you it's an inconvenient one- running ethernet to my system was a pain in the ass. Okay, then what happens to the sound when you turn off the transcoding to FLAC between audio stored as AIFF vs. ALAC? No, nothing surprises me anymore such as *claims* of audibility between WiFi and Ethernet - it is your ears, your home, your system, your settings after all. How would I know if everything is set up properly when you're testing? People claim a lot of things over the Internet. What would be *useful* is if a blind test showed the difference or measurements showing a difference and pointing to a cause. Then we can really get somewhere. Remember, ALAC, FLAC, APE, WV, etc. are all coded/engineered to be bit-perfect. In a GOOD system, they SHOULD NOT sound different from WAV/AIFF. As I suggested, to hear a difference suggests your system is doing something funny. This is not a good thing and IMO is not necessarily indicative of a hi-fi's resolving capacity; rather, it's resolving enough to show a hardware limitation in decoding lossless compressed audio data which should be trivial! Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98630 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
darrell wrote: Hmmm... I think I understand that on the surface of it, the left-right issue might be caused by the lack of an electrical connection between the two components, but on the other hand, wouldn't special audiophile quantum tunnelling effects ensure that the music still got through? (And with more purity, too, given that a theoretical path for transmission of interference would be removed?) Seriously, though, thanks again for your illuminating posts here and on your blog - it was obviously no small effort, but well worth it, as you have increased the signal to noise ratio of the audiophile parts of the internet. I know, just facetious bantering... Although I thought that quantum tunneling theory has already been exploited by the boys at Synergistic. ;-) Thanks for the note. It's fun just putting stuff out there in a more empirical fashion which I hope will at least get some audiophiles thinking and newbies realize that not all audiophiles are into greening demagnetizing CD's, fooling with cable risers, positioning totem beaks, considering buying expensive isolation platforms for non-mechanical gear, obsessed about cable directionality, can hear down to the picosecond of jitter, etc... Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
The first full digitally produced album Never mind there was no digital playback then I have to think despite the genius of Steven Wilson that this is the first truly recoverable album. life, banned, look it up banned for life's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56269 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: ...It's fun just putting stuff out there in a more empirical fashion... At the risk of repeating myself, it's great that you feel this way. Our society (and the internet which is simply a reflection of society) is far too polluted by conspiracy theorists and mystics (and dare I say, post-modern claptrap, generally). Although some feel think that audiophilia is an unimportant backwater of the general problem, the advocacy of empirical evidence as the basis for our understanding of reality is important in whatever field. I should do far more myself... darrell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13460 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New Humor in latest TAS
netchord wrote: well, SC is converting ALAC to FLAC using faad/sox, so i guess the difference I'm hearing is actually between FLAC and AIFF, both of which are converted natively by the TP. and would it surprise you to learn i hear a difference between wired and wireless to the TP, and prefer the former? what ever bias might be involved, i assure you it's an inconvenient one- running ethernet to my system was a pain in the ass. Well, if you're happy to simply set up your system in the way that you *think* sounds best for you, then fine. Just get on with enjoying the music. It's a free country, as we say. But if you are at all interested in understanding *why* you perceive these effects (and on one level you must be, otherwise you wouldn't be posting on the internet about it), you owe it to yourself to consider (and research, if necessary) the science, both electrical and psychological, with an open mind. You really will get nowhere without doing that. Even if you limit yourself to a serious consideration of the few most recent threads on this forum, you will find enough food for thought, and references, for you to begin understanding the possible mechanisms for your subjective experiences. To summarise (perhaps crudely) the most likely possibilities (not necessarily in order): 1. Psychological factors 2. There is something broken in your replay chain 3. You are not comparing like with like (different masters, for example) darrell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13460 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98630 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New Humor in latest TAS
netchord wrote: and would it surprise you to learn i hear a difference between wired and wireless to the TP, and prefer the former? what ever bias might be involved, i assure you it's an inconvenient one- running ethernet to my system was a pain in the ass. Very surprised. More evidence that something is broken. Bad wifi can cause buffering and dropouts. But sound quality differences? garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98630 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiogon's Wake Up Your Ears Sampler
Figured for $5 I'd try the 24/96 version. Haven't had time to listen on my main system, but I converted a copy to CD and listened in the car today. The recording was certainly full-range and dynamic, but have to say I used the next-track button on the CD player much more heavily than normal. Once again, the stereotype about audiophile demos is proved true. mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98599 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
