Re: command line fan fiction program?

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I promise this is my last post on this subject. After much time and effort, 
I found the scripts. They create the .warc format by default using wget, but 
the scripts can easily be modified. That's left as an exercise for someone 
else. Here is the Archive Team link. The scripts are on github and can be 
git cloned. The total size as of 2012 is about 830 GB, but that probably 
includes images. It's possible to get all stories by a particular user. I 
have not much interest myself except as a curiosity. It looks like there is 
a script to get a single story. Again, someone else can do the git clone and 
modify the scripts as they wish.


http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=FanFiction.Net

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Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I'm changing the subject for clarity.

On 4/18/2017 7:28 AM, John G Heim wrote:

I look at the debate over whether it is better to have a distro for the
blind or to work on improving mainstream distros like the debate over barley
versus wheat beers. Personally, I prefer barley beers over any and all wheat
beers. But if someone wants to brew a wheat beer, it's fine with me and I'd
even help out if they asked. It's a matter of good and better. In other
words, my opinion is that even if you think it would be better if these
developers spent their time on mainstream distros, we should all still
recognize that what they are doing is really helpful.  Don't let the perfect
be the enemy of the good.



In principle, I agree. There will always be people who want specialized 
technology such as Braille notetakers and those who expect commercial 
technology like smartphones to work for them. However, we're talking about a 
very small user base here and even fewer developers. Taking myself, I'm not 
a developer but I consider myself an advanced user. I wouldn't even try to 
develop a distro. A talking rescue CD was hard enough. As I said previously, 
anyone can have their pet distro. If someone wants a special distro for the 
blind, go for it! The problem I have and the reason why I feel so strongly 
is because of the lack of qualified and blind developers.


In other words, very few developers are blind and very few sighted 
developers know how to meet the needs of the blind. By investing the very 
limited resources of those few developers into a special distro used by only 
a very small user base, other mainstream distros lose out and the greater 
blind community doesn't benefit. As I said in my original mail, rather than 
hacking Fedora or whatever into shape, work with the upstream Fedora, 
Ubuntu, Debian etc developers. By educating a few, those limited resources 
go much further. Now, many of the sighted Debian developers ask if something 
breaks accessibility, are eager to fix bugs and go out of their way to make 
an accessible installer. The same can be said for Ubuntu. I found their MATE 
installer works fine with Orca and allowed me to install independently.


As already mentioned, Talking Arch, Sonar, Vinux and Oralux all either 
crashed or gave me no sound. Not to pick on Talking Arch, but with only two 
developers working on it, it's impossible to fix bugs in a timely manner 
(their bug tracker wasn't obviously linked on talkingarch.tk at the time) 
and test lots of hardware. With Ubuntu, they have a huge list of already 
tested hardware known to work. Yes, Canonical is commercial as is Red Hat, 
but essentially we have the sighted community working for us. When someone 
tests a laptop and finds it crashes, they report a bug and the upstream 
developers fix it. When a blind person tries Vinux on that same hardware and 
it crashes, they usually give up and say Linux is crap. Even if they report 
it, again, with the very limited resources, it's impossible to fix. All the 
Talking Arch (or Arch upstream) developers would have to do in my case is 
import the fix for my sound card from Debian where it was fixed years ago 
because lots of other people already reported it and the ALSA upstream 
developers fixed it which was picked up by Debian and Ubuntu. Before Speakup 
was in staging, almost no major distros supported it. Debian and Slackware 
were the only major distros to offer modules compiled with the kernel. That 
meant that Debian derivatives had Speakup if they used the Debian kernel. I 
recall seeing Speakup in Ubuntu, but serial support was broken so it didn't 
matter.


To bring this back full circle, if we had hundreds of blind developers like 
we have in Windows or on the Mac, i would totally agree with you and say if 
we want a blind-centric distro, it could help those few people who need or 
want it. However, we don't. It's like water in the desert. Every drop counts 
and is precious. What all of us really need to do is recruit more blind 
developers. That's why I say it would be far better for the Vinux Sonar 
organization to focus on working with other distros and upstream vendors 
rather than essentially reinventing the wheel. The difference with NVDA is 
it does run on Windows and has probably thousands more users. I would still 
like to see an actual development team for Orca rather than only a single 
paid developer. When she goes on vacation, Orca development stops. Oh yeah, 
she writes the docs and moderates the mailing list too.


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Re: command line fan fiction program?

[Linux for blind general discussion]

You're welcome. It's actually archive.org. The plural form is a different 
site. I've found that if in doubt, try IA first. Even if you don't find what 
you want, you're bound to find something interesting. I hadn't actually 
searched for fanfiction in years. It's nice having old archives. There is a 
way to browse the huge zip files and get only the items you want, but the 
syntax is escaping me at the moment. You never know what you'll find. The 
problem I have is the stories are only numbers, so without browsing each 
file, I have no idea what they're about. I'm referring to the downloads, not 
the fanfiction.net site itself. Sorry it took so long to find and answer 
your post.


On 4/18/2017 6:29 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

Tony,
I am a firm believer in synchronicity.
What makes your post hug worthy is that I was just wondering about
archives.org.  Reasoning being that sometimes a writer decides, either by
accident or intention to delete all their fanfiction.net  work.  I recently
found an hp  story by such a writer, wondered about their other creations,
and thoughth wonder if archives.org has anything?
That was last night,  I check mail this morning to find your post.
So...
*hugs*
Thanks!
Kare


On Tue, 18 Apr 2017, Tony Baechler wrote:


Again, as usual, sorry for the lateness, but search for fanfiction on
archive.org. Archive Team uploaded a huge dump of the fanfiction.net site,
perfect for offline reading, assuming it's still there. Be warned that
it's very huge! Don't download on a slow connection or with limited disk
space. I'm not sure if new stuff is added and I don't remember the upload
date offhand, so probably a few years old by now, but still a huge amount
of reading material. It's a full or nearly complete site dump, so should
be navigable with any browser.

On 3/22/2017 6:00 PM, Tim Chase wrote:

 (yes, both your original post and your nudge came through)

 Am I missing something in particular?  I visited the site in
 Lynx-the-cat and was able to get to a number of the fanfic works
 without any issue.  Just to sample, I went in by Movie and sampled
 some of the X-Men works, and went in by TV Show and sampled some of
 the M*A*S*H works.  They all came back as HTML.

 If you're looking for a scraper, the classic "wget" tool should
 provide the ability to scrape a subset of the site.  You might then
 have to do some post-cleanup if you don't want all the site-related
 periphery.

 -tim

 On March 22, 2017, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>  there is a site  called fan fiction.
>  www.fanfiction.net
>  A very long time ago it was possible to download items there, but
>  now one must use a third party application.
>  I am wondering if there is a command line tool, something that
>  might be a part of the Ubuntu distribution since that is what I
>  have both at shellworld and via dreamhost that can get the works
>  converting them into well anything?
>  via robobraille I can convert both epub and pdf into  text.

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another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous   man
availeth much in its working. (ASV)

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James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for 
another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous   man 
availeth much in its working. (ASV)


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Re: command line fan fiction program?

[Linux for blind general discussion]

First, it's archive.org. If you went to the plural form, no wonder why you 
didn't find anything.


On 4/18/2017 7:55 AM, Al Sten-Clanton wrote:

Any tips for getting around archives.org?  Somebody recommended it to me a
few weeks ago, so I gave it a quick shot.  I was looking for old-time radio
stuff.  I failed to find anything, for all the crawling around I did.  I'll
therefore be grateful for any pointers on using it.



http://archive.org/details/oldtimeradio

It's much worse to navigate than before. They redesigned it and made it much 
less accessible. I can't really give you any tips. If you're using Firefox, 
press "h" a few times to get past the first few headings. When you get to 
the checkboxes, it's quicker to navigate by link. If you find an item you 
want, go to the page for that item and go to "show all" to get a normal 
Apache directory listing. At least that way you can easily see file sizes 
with normal download links.


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Re: spammers on this list

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Would you be able to leave the 'display name' part of the original
'From' reserved / conserved / untouched?
  guenter

Am 18.04.2017 um 20:13 schrieb Linux for blind general discussion:
> Since stopping archiving of blinux-list didn't stop spammer,  we have
> proof that spammer is a subscriber of blinux-list.
> Now I'm hiding sender email address of a message to blinux list,
> replacing it with the list address.
>
> This should stop email address harvesting and spamming.
>
> Best Regards
> Hans
> (maintainer blinux-list)

-- 
.

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Re: spammers on this list

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Thanks, Hans. This should help!

Am 18.04.2017 um 20:13 schrieb Linux for blind general discussion:
> Since stopping archiving of blinux-list didn't stop spammer,  we have
> proof that spammer is a subscriber of blinux-list.
> Now I'm hiding sender email address of a message to blinux list,
> replacing it with the list address.
>
> This should stop email address harvesting and spamming.
>
> Best Regards
> Hans
> (maintainer blinux-list) 

-- 
.

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Re: spammers on this list

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Since stopping archiving of blinux-list didn't stop spammer,  we have 
proof that spammer is a subscriber of blinux-list.
Now I'm hiding sender email address of a message to blinux list, 
replacing it with the list address.


This should stop email address harvesting and spamming.

Best Regards
Hans
(maintainer blinux-list)

On 18.04.2017 19:44, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:

As I understand it, RedHat is just providing the hosting and has
nothing to do with the actual operation of the list, and since most of
the list's functionality is completely automated, there might not even
be a flesh and blood person behind whatever e-mail serves as the list
owner.

Whether the spammer is using the e-mail addresses attached to
individual messages as they're sent to subscribers or e-mail addresses
taken from the latest archived posts is probably impossible to tell,
but I deduce that the spam is being sent to individual poster's e-mail
addresses rather than the list itself and are independant of
legitimate post volume since I only get spam when I reply to a thread
and get a slew of the spam messages even if I was the last poster.

Banning Amy might work if she's getting the e-mail addresses from
messages landing in her inbox, but if the e-mail adresses are coming
from the archives or a second e-mail account subscribed to the list, I
don't think anything short of changing the list's configuration to not
include the sender's e-mail in either ther e-mails sent to individual
subscribers or the archives, and doing so would probably be necessary
to stop all future spam attempts that don't rely on being a
subscriber, and even if there is a flesh and blood person behind the
e-mail that serves as list owner, the list software might not allow
such.

That said, I accepted long ago that the only way to avoid spam e-mail
altogether is to not use e-mail at all just as the only foolproof
means of avoiding telemarketers is to not have a phone.



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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Why are you so opposed to Ubuntu as a base? I found it easier to build my 
talking rescue CD than Debian. In fact, it runs on 15.10 core if memory 
serves. I've had very good luck with Ubuntu MATE, again far better than with 
MATE installed in Debian stable due to the faster release cycle. Yes, there 
have been serious accessibility issues with Ubuntu in the past and the 
server install is not going to be accessible any time soon, but for a fast, 
reliable, talking graphical desktop with Orca, I think Ubuntu MATE is the 
best out there. Unlike with Vinux and Sonar, the Ubuntu MATE live DVD didn't 
crash my system and sound actually worked.


On 3/16/2017 8:35 AM, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:

I haven't used Vinux or Sonar, and what I've read of Ubuntu's main
line development has turned me off to anything that uses an Ubuntu
base, but probably my biggest want on the accessibility front would be
to see the Adriane accessibility suite ported upstream from Knoppix to
vanilla Debian and then propagate through all Debian derivatives. Or
at least get the parts of Adriane that provide a talking terminal that
I find far more usable than speakup and the ability to launch
Firefox+Orca without an entire desktop environment getting in the
way(though, if I could find a text-mode browser half as usable as
Firefox is with Orca, I might could free myself from the GUI once and
for all).


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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Le 23/04/2017 à 11:25, Linux for blind general discussion a écrit :
> Your name isn't showing up for some reason. You make some good
> arguments. Comments below.

Because the Mailing admin made it disappear to avoid massive spams users
received indi(idually after posting here.

> On 4/21/2017 6:05 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>> My only concern with this argument is that it seems like it takes
>> longer to
>> get fixes pushed up stream then it does to spin up a custom
>> distribution. It
>> also seems to me that a lot of what's needed in a custom distribution is
>> packaging and customization as opposed to programming.
> 
> From my experience, mostly what's needed is custom scripts and config
> files. A lot of this could be done with custom packages. A thought I had
> was asking for community submissions of scripts which make programs more
> accessible. They could be put into either a tar archive or .deb package
> which anyone could install on any system as config files aren't arch or
> platform specific. I decided it would be too hard for one person to keep
> up with and make sure new versions didn't break the old config files.

I really agree with this. To handle upgrades, we need non-regression
tests. And informing upst!eam of the existence of such "addons". But
yes, it's the good way of doing I think.


> Initially, yes, it would take longer to get fixes pushed upstream.
> That's why I suggest working with the upstream software developers and
> not the distro developers. That way, a fix to ALSA or Firefox is picked
> up by all major distros instead of one at a time. However, in some
> cases, that isn't possible. I'm referring to installers. If a few
> unknown people submit patches, the review process takes a long time and
> the patches might not be accepted. If a nonprofit organization is formed
> specifically for that purpose and not only submits patches but posts
> them either on github or similar, not only do they get more review but
> they are more likely to be taken seriously since there is an actual
> organization behind them. I know there are exceptions, but I think most
> people take Apache, Mozilla and Gnome much more seriously than a single,
> random developer. When they know your reputation and you have submitted
> enough patches, you can commit directly upstream, but as you say, that
> takes a long time. Case in point, it can take years to be an official
> Debian developer who can maintain packages without review.

Right. However as Debian has an accessibility team and is
accessibility-sensitive, patches will be reviewed quickly and applied.
The main instal;er maintainer knows fine accessibility.

>>
>> I look at Vinux and Ubuntu as an example. It seems like Luke and the
>> Vinux
>> developers were able to get a lot more accomplished in a lot less time
>> working with Vinux then they were able to do by trying to push things
>> upstream in Ubuntu. Focusing on getting changes upstream, when there
>> could
>> have been a Vinux available, would have meant fewer blind Linux users and
>> some of those blind Linux users would have spent more of their own time
>> setting up and customizing Ubuntu and finding and installing accessible
>> applications. If you think vinux users are going to just quit and give up
>> when they run into a Linux issue, I'd think that problem would be even
>> more
>> prevalent if they didn't have a Vinux where a lot of the work was already
>> done for them.
> 
> Yes and no. First, don't forget that Vinux was itself based on Ubuntu.
> It wasn't built from scratch. Ubuntu had serious accessibility problems
> in the past. I wouldn't say it's perfect now, but it's a lot better.
> Arch might be more current for the desktop, but it's a lot harder to
> install. For a mainstream, graphical distro, Ubuntu MATE is very good.
> When I tried Vinux, it had a broken installer and the system crashed. I
> got a few comments that people gave up for those reasons. I understand
> the major bugs are fixed now, but it still doesn't use what I would
> consider a friendly, customizable installer. While I'm opposed to
> blind-centric distros, I realize they have their place and some people
> want them. I think what you say below makes very good sense. Create a
> custom distro based on Fedora or whatever. When it's stable, work with
> upstream to get those customizations included. What I would like to see
> is a custom flavor of Ubuntu MATE. It would boot up talking and have the
> features of Vinux but would be supported by the Ubuntu developers and
> use the Ubuntu installer. Remember that just as 95% of Ubuntu is based
> on Debian, at least 95% of Vinux is based on Ubuntu. Really, in terms of
> code 

Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

On 4/18/2017 8:23 AM, Eric Oyen wrote:

here is one thing that might be distro independent: create an accessibility 
package set. This would include the required libs, scripts, binaries and config 
files needed to make any distro accessible. It would include emacspeak, BrlTTY, 
ORCA, the appropriate audio drivers and libraries and even access to the kernel 
modules required to make it all work.



While great in principle, it's impossible and wouldn't work. First, how do 
you maintain binaries for the different arches? The Raspberry Pi runs on 
ARM, I'm running amd64, some old machines are 32-bit x86, etc. Again, 
speaking of very limited resources, it would be impossible to maintain the 
latest versions of all of these packages and build binaries for all of the 
arches. Also, what about memory? A small ARMEL system isn't going to run 
Orca very well, although I've read of people doing it. The list goes on.


The other problem is you'd have massive system breakage. If I run a Fedora 
binary on Debian, there is probably a shared library conflict. That means 
everything has to be compiled statically, slowing down execution and 
increasing memory. Even at that, you can't mix and match kernel modules in 
most cases. My 4.3.3 Speakup modules probably won't run on my 4.6.4 kernel. 
Finally, every distro puts files in different places. Do you have 
/usr/bin/orca which overwrites the distro package or /usr/local/bin/orca? If 
the later, what if /usr/local/bin/orca breaks, leaving you without speech? 
You have to delete it to get /usr/bin/orca to run. What if the version of 
Gnome supplied doesn't match Orca? The list goes on and on.


There is a possible solution, however. It would be to create a list of as 
many config files as possible for as many programs as possible, roughly 
divided into console and GUI. My thought would be, for example, special 
configs for Lynx the cat, Links the chain and whatever other console 
programs people have customized. For graphical, you would have Orca plugins, 
weather scripts like Vinux has, etc. They could be supplied as generic 
tarballs which could be extracted on any OS, any platform and any distro. 
The only thing special would be a custom installer or support in the 
existing upstream installer. It could fetch the tarballs from a central 
place and extract them on installation. Failing that, drop a script which 
runs at first boot to do the same thing. Failing that, distribute a bash 
script which could be run without speech once you're logged in as root. That 
would still require the accessibility packages to be installed, but the 
script could do that automatically. Lots of projects do that already, mostly 
on servers. They autodetect the distro, make sure the latest package lists 
are downloaded and install from either a central repo or the distro's repos. 
You could even ship a static .wav player and include spoken prompts. I've 
thought of designing a talking menu system that way.


Getting back to your point, you could have two sets of central repos, one 
for RPM and one for .deb as those are the two most popular. The script could 
figure out which distro you're running, fetch from the central repo, install 
and that's it. The user can pick what they want and whether they want 
console or GUI. You would still have to compile everything statically, but 
you could support Debian stable, testing, oldstable, Ubuntu, Fedora, maybe 
RHEL, etc. That would let you ship custom RHEL kernels with working Speakup 
modules. That is not only very doable but is already being done with webmin 
and lots of other projects. It could easily be maintained by a few 
developers. You have one for RPM, one for .deb and one for security and support.


Even better, you could have a live CD which does this. I don't mean like 
Vinux or Ubuntu. I mean after you install your favorite distro, you boot the 
live CD and it runs the script to install accessibility on the already 
installed distro. You could run that CD on hundreds of machines and in 
theory, all could be made accessible. Then again, that makes me think if all 
upstream distros made their installers accessible, this would all be a waste 
of time.


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list identification:

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I would like to make a suggestion:
As the list moderator has redacted senders, perhaps it would be helpful if 
people were to put there name at the beginning or the end of there posts.
I can usually tell who is posting because I am practiced at reading 
headers, but it is time consuming and not everyone will wish to do that.

I hope this suggestion is helpful.
-- Kelly Prescott


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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Yes, I totally agree with this.
-- 
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> writes:

> My only concern with this argument is that it seems like it takes
> longer to get fixes pushed up stream then it does to spin up a custom
> distribution. It also seems to me that a lot of what's needed in a
> custom distribution is packaging and customization as opposed to
> programming.
>
> I look at Vinux and Ubuntu as an example. It seems like Luke and the
> Vinux developers were able to get a lot more accomplished in a lot
> less time working with Vinux then they were able to do by trying to
> push things upstream in Ubuntu. Focusing on getting changes upstream,
> when there could have been a Vinux available, would have meant fewer
> blind Linux users and some of those blind Linux users would have spent
> more of their own time setting up and customizing Ubuntu and finding
> and installing accessible applications. If you think vinux users are
> going to just quit and give up when they run into a Linux issue, I'd
> think that problem would be even more prevalent if they didn't have a
> Vinux where a lot of the work was already done for them.
>
> IMHO, I think a hybrid approach is the way to go. Build a custom
> distribution, prove that it can work, build up your blind user base
> and work to get those changes upstream. I know it seems like this is
> spreading an already thin resource even thinner, but I think it's the
> most likely road to success.
>
> I also think that custom distributions is just part of the Linux
> ecosystem. How many custom distributions are there out there to
> satisfy every niche? I don't think this should be any different for
> the blind Linux user.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 21/04/17 05:53, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>> I'm changing the subject for clarity.
>>
>> On 4/18/2017 7:28 AM, John G Heim wrote:
>>> I look at the debate over whether it is better to have a distro for the
>>> blind or to work on improving mainstream distros like the debate over
>>> barley
>>> versus wheat beers. Personally, I prefer barley beers over any and all
>>> wheat
>>> beers. But if someone wants to brew a wheat beer, it's fine with me
>>> and I'd
>>> even help out if they asked. It's a matter of good and better. In other
>>> words, my opinion is that even if you think it would be better if these
>>> developers spent their time on mainstream distros, we should all still
>>> recognize that what they are doing is really helpful.  Don't let the
>>> perfect
>>> be the enemy of the good.
>>
>>
>> In principle, I agree. There will always be people who want specialized
>> technology such as Braille notetakers and those who expect commercial
>> technology like smartphones to work for them. However, we're talking
>> about a very small user base here and even fewer developers. Taking
>> myself, I'm not a developer but I consider myself an advanced user. I
>> wouldn't even try to develop a distro. A talking rescue CD was hard
>> enough. As I said previously, anyone can have their pet distro. If
>> someone wants a special distro for the blind, go for it! The problem I
>> have and the reason why I feel so strongly is because of the lack of
>> qualified and blind developers.
>>
>> In other words, very few developers are blind and very few sighted
>> developers know how to meet the needs of the blind. By investing the
>> very limited resources of those few developers into a special distro
>> used by only a very small user base, other mainstream distros lose out
>> and the greater blind community doesn't benefit. As I said in my
>> original mail, rather than hacking Fedora or whatever into shape, work
>> with the upstream Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian etc developers. By educating a
>> few, those limited resources go much further. Now, many of the sighted
>> Debian developers ask if something breaks accessibility, are eager to
>> fix bugs and go out of their way to make an accessible installer. The
>> same can be said for Ubuntu. I found their MATE installer works fine
>> with Orca and allowed me to install independently.
>>
>> As already mentioned, Talking Arch, Sonar, Vinux and Oralux all either
>> crashed or gave me no sound. Not to pick on Talking Arch, but with only
>> two developers working on it, it's impossible to fix bugs in a timely
>> manner (their bug tracker wasn't obviously linked on talkingarch.tk at
>> the time) and test lots of hardware. With Ubuntu, they have a huge list

Re: OT: Braille Hexadecimal

[Linux for blind general discussion]

actually, there are two ways this can be handled.
1. use grade 1 braille for this
2. use computer braille (which can be a real pain at times, but it has greater 
flexibility).

-eric

On Apr 23, 2017, at 6:18 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> Okay, so this has nothing to do with Linux or SBCs and almost nothing
> to do with accessibility, but all I'm getting from Google is how
> unicode handles visual braille and I figure these lists probably have
> the highest concentration of those in the intersection of "geeky
> enough to know hexadecimal" and "uses Braille on a regular basis".
> 
> So, in print or spoken, Hexadecimal uses the Letters A-F to represent
> decimal values 10-15, but in braille, the letters A-F are already
> doing double duty as the digits 1-6. I don't use braille, so I've
> never run into this conflict of notation, but I find myself curious
> how my braille reading peers resolve it.
> 
> -- 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jeffery Wright
> President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa.
> Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle.
> 
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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

ok,

differing arches all have the same source in common. So, maintaining for them 
is actually easier than you might think. All that would really be required to 
make an arch specific package is the proper scripts that patch and package for 
that arch. Otherwise, the source code, itself, is pretty common across all 
arches.

Now, I have done this in the past. Used a source tar ball and compiled on a 
debian based system and also compiled on a RedHat based system and in both 
cases, the utility that I compiled functioned the same and required the same 
libraries and development tools.

THere is also the use of a ports tree (As seen in the BSD ecology). I have been 
able to compile some linux tools over there, but the ports tree is a bit 
limited and still depends on developer support. So, in that case, it could be 
problematic.

Someone else pointed out that we may need an organization fronting some 
development as a means to get patches and packages reviewed faster. Perhaps we 
need to take a look at the guys at the NV Association (the makers of NVDA, the 
free windows screen reader). THey have a fairly sizable fundraising network and 
do a lot of work with some paid developers. Also, the guys running the 
organization are a pair of blind programers. Now, if we could get them 
involved, it might help to enhance operations in creating a standardized 
accessibility package set that can be arch independent.

Now, mind you, I am not a coder. I can operate a compiler, even make some 
simple changes to get a compile working, but thats about as far as my developer 
skills go. My forte is security, intrusion detection, firewall scripting and 
auditing as well as advanced system administration. And yes, my preferred OS in 
a secure environment is in the BSD ecology. However, as a recent exchange with 
Theo DeRaadt demonstrates, there are just some folks who won't even consider 
supporting the idea of making an OS accessible. In fact (as that recent 
exchange demonstrated), they might just go out of their way to impede progress 
in this area.

anyway, given all that we are striving for, some good help can be had out there 
(like the aforementioned NV association). It's just a matter of getting them 
onboard.

-eric

On Apr 23, 2017, at 4:13 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> On 4/18/2017 8:23 AM, Eric Oyen wrote:
>> here is one thing that might be distro independent: create an accessibility 
>> package set. This would include the required libs, scripts, binaries and 
>> config files needed to make any distro accessible. It would include 
>> emacspeak, BrlTTY, ORCA, the appropriate audio drivers and libraries and 
>> even access to the kernel modules required to make it all work.
> 
> 
> While great in principle, it's impossible and wouldn't work. First, how do 
> you maintain binaries for the different arches? The Raspberry Pi runs on ARM, 
> I'm running amd64, some old machines are 32-bit x86, etc. Again, speaking of 
> very limited resources, it would be impossible to maintain the latest 
> versions of all of these packages and build binaries for all of the arches. 
> Also, what about memory? A small ARMEL system isn't going to run Orca very 
> well, although I've read of people doing it. The list goes on.
> 
> The other problem is you'd have massive system breakage. If I run a Fedora 
> binary on Debian, there is probably a shared library conflict. That means 
> everything has to be compiled statically, slowing down execution and 
> increasing memory. Even at that, you can't mix and match kernel modules in 
> most cases. My 4.3.3 Speakup modules probably won't run on my 4.6.4 kernel. 
> Finally, every distro puts files in different places. Do you have 
> /usr/bin/orca which overwrites the distro package or /usr/local/bin/orca? If 
> the later, what if /usr/local/bin/orca breaks, leaving you without speech? 
> You have to delete it to get /usr/bin/orca to run. What if the version of 
> Gnome supplied doesn't match Orca? The list goes on and on.
> 
> There is a possible solution, however. It would be to create a list of as 
> many config files as possible for as many programs as possible, roughly 
> divided into console and GUI. My thought would be, for example, special 
> configs for Lynx the cat, Links the chain and whatever other console programs 
> people have customized. For graphical, you would have Orca plugins, weather 
> scripts like Vinux has, etc. They could be supplied as generic tarballs which 
> could be extracted on any OS, any platform and any distro. The only thing 
> special would be a custom installer or support in the existing upstream 
> installer. It could fetch the tarballs from a central place and extract them 
> on installation. Failing that, drop a script which runs at first boot to do 
> the same thing. Failing that, distribute a bash 

Re: OT: Braille Hexadecimal

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I use 8-dot computer Braille. The numbers are dropped so there is no
need for number/letter signs and no conflict.

On 4/23/17, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> Well, that's not hard for braille to do. Just have the number signs
> where they need to be, and just have the letter sign before a-f, then go
> back to numbers.
> --
> Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
> Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
> Long days and pleasant nights!
>
> Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> writes:
>
>> Okay, so this has nothing to do with Linux or SBCs and almost nothing
>> to do with accessibility, but all I'm getting from Google is how
>> unicode handles visual braille and I figure these lists probably have
>> the highest concentration of those in the intersection of "geeky
>> enough to know hexadecimal" and "uses Braille on a regular basis".
>>
>> So, in print or spoken, Hexadecimal uses the Letters A-F to represent
>> decimal values 10-15, but in braille, the letters A-F are already
>> doing double duty as the digits 1-6. I don't use braille, so I've
>> never run into this conflict of notation, but I find myself curious
>> how my braille reading peers resolve it.
>
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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Very well composed email Kyle.

Thank you

Rob Whyte



On 24/04/17 06:02, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> I think you misunderstand the way TalkingArch works. TalkingArch has
> very minor modifications to offer speech and braille output out of the
> box, but TalkingArch is essentially just Arch. There is no need for
> more developers, as we just take the official Arch iso and make very
> few modifications to it. We maintain a single package,
> (brltty-mimimal), which removes dependencies on X and other things
> that aren't needed in an official Arch installation and work around
> some sound issues by unmuting the sound cards and playing a recorded
> message and beeps when multiple cards are detected, and all that was
> done before Kelly and I started maintaining it.  No, TalkingArch is
> *not* a specialized distro; it's a modified ArchLinux iso that talks
> and outputs braille out of the box. Once installed, the end user has
> nothing on his/her system but pure Arch. This is what we offer in
> TalkingArch and nothing more. In reality, it only takes about 5 hours
> each month to keep TalkingArch working, and most of that is build and
> upload time.
>
> Sonar and Vinux on the other hand are both specialized, as once
> installed, the end user sees a modified Linux operating system that is
> different from the parent. In the case of Sonar, the parent was
> Manjaro, which forked from Arch, so was already different, and in the
> case of Vinux, the parent was Ubuntu, which is based initially off of
> Debian, so is also different from its upstream. Once faced with the
> dilemma of finding a new parent distro because Manjaro stopped working
> or merging with Vinux, which was already facing such a challenge, it
> made perfect sense to pool resources and merge with Vinux. The good
> thing is that Vinux will in the near future base itself on a parent
> distro that has no other parent and is not a derivative or fork of
> another distro, meaning that the immediate upstream is the application
> developers themselves. Additionally, Fedora is nearly dead center
> between the Arch philosophy of the rolling release, having the latest
> and greatest at all costs, and the Debian philosophy, in which older
> is better, so the latest changes to Orca that make it work better on
> the web for example, which have been available for some time, may not
> make it into the OS for as long as two years. The 6-month release
> cycle is perfect, as nothing gets too old, and upstream is imported
> fully and directly at first, with a chance for instability and
> breakage to settle down before a full release, during which time, new
> upstream versions can be integrated into the released system if and
> only if nothing breaks. Meanwhile, any necessary patches are, in
> theory at least, sent back directly upstream to the application
> developers, similar to the way Arch works. And this is not at all the
> endgame. The ultimate goal is to be able to do away with Vinux
> completely, as upstream applications themselves will be perfected so
> that they work with the available accessibility stack, and this will
> eventually filter down into everything from Arch all the way down to
> Debian Stable and CentOS, and even into the various derivatives and
> forks such as Manjaro and Ubuntu. Yes, any chaining is mostly not
> really a good thing, but we're much closer to the top of the chain now
> than we ever have been, and the endgame is to work at the top of the
> chain in all things.
> Sent from the range
>
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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Le 23/04/2017 à 23:18, Linux for blind general discussion a écrit :
> Debian Testing isn't exactly a rolling release in the same way as Arch.
> Debian Unstable probably comes closer, but even that's not the same. The
> problem is that Arch for example takes all component packages from the
> same desktop version, ie. GNOME, whereas Debian even unstable takes
> parts of 2 or 3 different versions and tries to fit them together.

That's right. I'm investigating about it as I'd like to understand this
asynchronous.

> Worse, back when I ran Debian Unstable on a desktop, I had lots of
> apt-get breakage where packages were broken due to dependent packages
> that had either fallen behind the broken package or new dependencies
> that had been added to the broken package, but were not yet in the
> repository. These things don't necessarily fix themselves in Testing
> unfortunately, as the only requirement for a package to enter Testing
> from Unstable is a 1-week waiting period, which will naturally be just
> as many days behind for the dependency as it was when the packages
> entered Unstable. There is a good reason why Debian's newer repositories
> are called Testing" and "Unstable." Arch at least tries, and for the
> most part does, keep all component packages for the major desktops at
> the same version. The only exceptions I've seen are where some packages
> don't get a point release, so you may see for example MATE 1.18.1 and
> 1.18.2 packages, but you will never see MATE 1.16 and 1.18 packages, Nor
> do you often see packages that break due to missing or old dependencies,
> as those are supposed to be filtered out in Arch testing and earlier. I
> did see a single exception to that where a Python package broke due to
> an outdated dependency, but this is quite rare in Arch, as I have only
> seen that once or twice in more than 6 years.

It's indeed an imrrurcodnt need I think. At least, testing shou;d just
have relevant packages without breakage. Unstable is a really workspace,
so why not. But testing should be clean to be tested. But it's something
which needs to be discussed, defended, by users, by people. So in front
of such problems, I prefer fixing them inside than leaving it due to
them. To make the global project improve. But right, the current
situation is not acceptable.

> ~Kyle
> 
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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

# To clarify, I was under the impression that Fedora was, at least
# originally, a derivative of RedHat Enterprise Linux and that the term
# RedHat was typically used both for the company and for the distro that
# bears their name
Not quite. Fedora is the continuation of the distro called "Red Hat," 
which was essentially the desktop version of Red Hat's operating system. 
Red Hat Enterprise is the commercially supported version, mostly for 
servers and enterprise workstations, which takes packages from Fedora 
and modifies and patches them so that they work predictably in that 
environment. Fedora is said to be the testing ground for new features 
and applications that will eventually make it into Red Hat Enterprise, 
and also CentOS, which is also now a Red Hat distro. This said, Fedora 
is for the most part the parent of all these, and its maintainers work 
directly with upstream application developers. This is closest to what 
the original "Red Hat Linux" of 2002 and 2003 was, although it was also 
commercially supported at that time.

~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Kyle writes:

> The NV Association is perfectly justified if they refuse funding of
> Linux development, as that's just not what they do.

Absolutely.  For a number of years now, I've thought it would be nice to
have an umbrella foundation to help accessibility related projects.  I
don't know where it would get its funding, and I don't know what
considerations it would need to make when allocating resources to
projects.  Honestly I don't know anything about this sort of thing, but
the Linux Access Foundation sounds like a really good idea, in theory.

-- Chris Brannon

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Wait, I thought Fedora was to Redhat as Ubuntu is to Debian, or has
Fedora become more of it's own thing over time?

Though honestly, I see Debian has having less of a slow release cycle
and more of Debian Testing being a rolling release on par with any of
the quick cycle distros, and Debian Stable being closer to the LTS
releases of other distros. That said, having Adriane ported upstream
from Knoppix to Debian and an Adriane version of Debian CD 1 is still
my dream when it comes to accessible Linux. Persumably, it shouldn't
take that much work since Adriane is mostly bash scripts and Knoppix
sources most of it's binaries from Debian's repositories, but there
are a few programs Adriane uses(The SBL screen reader probably the
most important) that would need to be compiled for architectures other
thand i386 to run on all flavors of Debian.

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Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle.

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

According to eric:
# you forget, they are OPEN SOURCE. windows might not be, but the NVDA 
screen reader is.
You forget that although NVDA is open source, it is designed to run on 
an operating system that is fundamentally different, and would require a 
complete redesign to even come close to making it work anywhere else. 
Hell, it can't even run on ReactOS. What reason do they have to redesign 
the screen reader to run on anything else? Why should they go to such 
trouble? And furthermore, why has no one else stepped up? Maybe because 
it's just not practical.

~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Le 24/04/2017 à 01:07, Linux for blind general discussion a écrit :
> # A couple of years ago, I suggested the nvda and the orca developers
> # create a inter-operability panel to make the 2 screen readers as similar
> # as possible. I still think it is a good idea.
> Some things are already similar enough. But there's no way in this world
> they can be exactly the same, as not only are the operating systems they
> run on fundamentally different, but the core functionality is also as
> fundamentally different. Orca has functions that NVDA does not have, and
> NVDA by its nature has functions that Orca does not have. BTDubs, that
> NVDA object navigation is for the birds. Just give me my Orca flat
> review. It's much easier to navigate. And they can keep their virtual

Oh yes! I love Orca flat review. Even if may be improved. Much closer
than Jaws cursor I think.

regards,

> buffering mess as well. Perhaps they do that because everyone else on
> Windows does it, but it will thankfully never fly in Orca.
> ~Kyle
> 
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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

According to eric:
# Perhaps we need to take a look at the guys at the NV Association (the 
makers of NVDA, the free

# windows screen reader).
Seriously? The NV Association is *not* a general accessibility 
organization. It is the organization that handles funding for the NVDA 
Windows screen reader only. This is good enough for people who are still 
Microsoft dependent, but not good for the rest of us. Should Sonar or 
Vinux help fund Windows development? I think not. Therefore, the NV 
Association is perfectly justified if they refuse funding of Linux 
development, as that's just not what they do. That would go far in 
explaining why as I recall, they have in fact been approached on several 
occasions regarding funding of Linux accessibility development, but 
refused to help, either with funds or with developers. It would be like 
asking ArchLinux to help Microsoft develop Windows. It's simply not 
gonna happen.

~Kyle

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi,


> Additionally, Fedora is nearly dead center between the Arch philosophy
> of the rolling release, having the latest and greatest at all costs, and
> the Debian philosophy, in which older is better, so the latest changes
> to Orca that make it work better on the web for example, which have been
> available for some time, may not make it into the OS for as long as two

It is not the Debian philosophy. Debian does not say "older is better",
but "stable is better", as known and we know how to deal with a
situation. And an update is possible is if it sure it will not break
anything in stable.

For persons who want to get benefit from an Orca improvement in Debian
stable, installing backport is possible. It mainly works fine, without
problems for the OS stability. But Orca updates may create lots of bugs.
For example, so far, we hoped we would update from 3.16 to 3.22, but
3.22 introduced bugs on the Web and LibreOffice. Ok it's more reactive,
it has improvements, but also regressions. And "basic" users hate
regressions, and upgrading permanently has regressions risks. Except if
we do non-reg tests, as I plan. But it's not done yet.


> years. The 6-month release cycle is perfect, as nothing gets too old,
> and upstream is imported fully and directly at first, with a chance for
> instability and breakage to settle down before a full release, during
> which time, new upstream versions can be integrated into the released
> system if and only if nothing breaks. Meanwhile, any necessary patches

This 6-months cycle is perfect for power-users. Not for elderly persons,
new blind people, etc. which may be disturbed by so frequent changes and
regressions. I don't forget that LibreOffice has not been accessible
since 4.2.6, Firefox introduces many a11y bugs frequently, denounced by
Joanie, and the a11y stack in GNOME has sometimes bugs if release of
each lib is not exactly the same. A11y stack is ser1ral programs (about
15-20). Very difficult, in a short cycle, to ensure they stay without
regressions. And upgrading each 6 months requires some skills,
standalone, and not all users have it. And opposing power users of free
shftware with beginners with Apple or Microsoft programs is not my
dream, even today.

> are, in theory at least, sent back directly upstream to the application
> developers, similar to the way Arch works. And this is not at all the
> endgame. The ultimate goal is to be able to do away with Vinux
> completely, as upstream applications themselves will be perfected so
> that they work with the available accessibility stack, and this will
> eventually filter down into everything from Arch all the way down to
> Debian Stable and CentOS, and even into the various derivatives and
> forks such as Manjaro and Ubuntu. Yes, any chaining is mostly not really

I can agree this point. I just am sure we'd be stronger everybody on a
single workspace, but we probably can do with our respective distros.

Regards,

> a good thing, but we're much closer to the top of the chain now than we
> ever have been, and the endgame is to work at the top of the chain in
> all things.
> Sent from the range
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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Debian Testing isn't exactly a rolling release in the same way as Arch. 
Debian Unstable probably comes closer, but even that's not the same. The 
problem is that Arch for example takes all component packages from the 
same desktop version, ie. GNOME, whereas Debian even unstable takes 
parts of 2 or 3 different versions and tries to fit them together. 
Worse, back when I ran Debian Unstable on a desktop, I had lots of 
apt-get breakage where packages were broken due to dependent packages 
that had either fallen behind the broken package or new dependencies 
that had been added to the broken package, but were not yet in the 
repository. These things don't necessarily fix themselves in Testing 
unfortunately, as the only requirement for a package to enter Testing 
from Unstable is a 1-week waiting period, which will naturally be just 
as many days behind for the dependency as it was when the packages 
entered Unstable. There is a good reason why Debian's newer repositories 
are called Testing" and "Unstable." Arch at least tries, and for the 
most part does, keep all component packages for the major desktops at 
the same version. The only exceptions I've seen are where some packages 
don't get a point release, so you may see for example MATE 1.18.1 and 
1.18.2 packages, but you will never see MATE 1.16 and 1.18 packages, Nor 
do you often see packages that break due to missing or old dependencies, 
as those are supposed to be filtered out in Arch testing and earlier. I 
did see a single exception to that where a Python package broke due to 
an outdated dependency, but this is quite rare in Arch, as I have only 
seen that once or twice in more than 6 years.

~Kyle

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

To clarify, I was under the impression that Fedora was, at least
originally, a derivative of RedHat Enterprise Linux and that the term
RedHat was typically used both for the company and for the distro that
bears their name(and perhaps it was presumptuous of me to think it was
obvious I meant Redhat the distro and not Redhat the company in my
previous post). Granted, there are so many distros and things change
so much between major releases of the long lived distros that it's
easy to get things mixed up, especially if you don't actively follow
development of distros other than the one you use on a daily basis,
and the last time I touched Fedora was before Ubuntu came on the
scene(I believe it was Ubuntu 5.10 that had me making the shift from
Windows to Linux if I remember correctly and I haven't step foot out
of the Debian family since).

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi,


Well now I think 2 approaches are identified, people can choose and it
is documented. :) I think we are in front of 2 experiences, maybe due to
2 countries or some reasons, we do not work with the same clients.
Interesting btw. Probably not the same levels, usages, needs, habits.
I'd be interested in knowing the number of blind people using GNU/Linux
in the world, for daily life (so with browser, GUI, etc).



I just hope the max devs will be common/cross-distros, and benefit for
everyone. I hope also that non-regression tests will come in free
software. And that distros will have a11y features, in a modular mode,
to be universal and avoid specialization. I don't forget the topic is
"blind vs mainstream", while my purpose is a fully accessibility beyond
vision impairment, but also from a level of knowledge point of view,
low-vision impaired people, and other kind of disabilities. But it was
useful to have this debate on the mailing list.


PS: no, it is not a typo, I wrote LibreOffice 4.2.6. And try ctrl-f11
then More styles, maybe you will see why I say it is just less
accessible. 5.3 has still worse a11y problems for now. And I don't quote
for Calc how it's hard to use in braille in latest releases. The needed
work is enormous in this suite. We reported about 30 bugs. But again, it
depends on usage and what is expected from an office suite.




Regards,



Regards,



Le 24/04/2017 à 00:45, Linux for blind general discussion a écrit :
> # It is not the Debian philosophy. Debian does not say "older is better",
> # but "stable is better", as known and we know how to deal with a
> # situation. And an update is possible is if it sure it will not break
> # anything in stable.
>
> In many cases these days, since everything is a moving target,
> 2-year-old packages are not simply stable, but instead are
> unacceptably old. The one case where this is different is in the
> enterprise and on servers, where really old and really stable are for
> some reason synonymous.
> # For persons who want to get benefit from an Orca improvement in Debian
> # stable, installing backport is possible. It mainly works fine, without
> # problems for the OS stability.
> ...
>
> Installing backports can help with some things, but again, it's better
> on slow-moving targets like servers. Maybe they need a later version
> of php or something, but don't need an updated kernel or system
> libraries. But backports is still another repository to install, and
> is still not kept up-to-date with the latest improvements, and is
> still a larger gap between the running version and the upstream
> developer, where bug reports are most effective. It's like trying to
> jump the Grand Canyon as opposed to jumping a pond. The goal of Vinux
> is to bridge the pond, not the canyon.
>
> ...
> # This 6-months cycle is perfect for power-users. Not for elderly
> persons,
> # new blind people, etc. which may be disturbed by so frequent changes
> and
> # regressions.
>
> Not at all. I work with regular users every day, and I can say that if
> stability can be achieved in a much shorter cycle, then it's most
> certainly better for the end user to have something that works and
> keeps working, given the opportunity to keep it running longer than 6
> months if desired, than to have to wait for beneficial changes to
> filter down over a two-year-plus release cycle. I must say that I have
> never even once recommended Debian Stable to a new client, because
> it's simply too old, and there's too much work to try to do to make it
> newer. Likewise, I've never even once recommended Debian Testing or
> Unstable to any end user, because those truly are for power users,
> even more than Arch, which I have actually had non-power users working
> with quite successfully, as I did an OEM-style installation, and the
> OS pretty much takes over at that point, with only about 5 things that
> have required user intervention in the past 6 years. That's an average
> minor breakage once a year as opposed to a complete reinstall every 2
> years. And who is to say that having to upgrade every 6 months is less
> painful than upgrading every two years, especially if the process is
> made painless enough? People now expect more and more frequent
> updates, as provided by the #1 mobile operating system in the world,
> (Android), and even ChromeOS on the Chromebook line of computers, and
> yes, even on Apple and Microsoft devices, all of which require a
> restart to update, and that full system upgrade now for the most part
> gets installed fully after that device is restarted. In fact, these
> kinds of things are not specific to power users, but are now expected,
> generating complaints from the average user if the system isn't
> updated frequently enough. Additionally, at

Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Kyle, you are showing exactly the attitude that drives so many normal 
users crazy.  Now, I defended the idea of developers creating a distro 
just for the blind. A lot of people don't even approve of that. But you 
could at least recognize that a lot of people would benefit if screen 
reader developers would work together to make the shortcut keys as 
similar as possible. If the shortcut keys are similar, it's mostly just 
a coincidence. As time goes by, they are going to be less and less 
similar. For once in your life, can't you have an open mind to the 
possibility that you don't have all the answers? Sheesh!






On 04/23/2017 06:07 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

# A couple of years ago, I suggested the nvda and the orca developers
# create a inter-operability panel to make the 2 screen readers as 
similar

# as possible. I still think it is a good idea.
Some things are already similar enough. But there's no way in this 
world they can be exactly the same, as not only are the operating 
systems they run on fundamentally different, but the core 
functionality is also as fundamentally different. Orca has functions 
that NVDA does not have, and NVDA by its nature has functions that 
Orca does not have. BTDubs, that NVDA object navigation is for the 
birds. Just give me my Orca flat review. It's much easier to navigate. 
And they can keep their virtual buffering mess as well. Perhaps they 
do that because everyone else on Windows does it, but it will 
thankfully never fly in Orca.

~Kyle

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Regarding my experiences with my clients, my business motto has always 
been "Linux is for everyone," and I don't discriminate. This means that 
I will never make it a policy to serve only blind or visually impaired 
people, and I prefer what are commonly called "mainstream" distros over 
all else. In fact, I have worked more with users with eyeballs, 
installing and supporting traditional distros, than I have with blind or 
visually impaired people, except maybe the support work I've done pro 
bono on various e-mail lists and IRC channels. But after much discussion 
between the Vinux and Sonar developers, it was felt that something 
specialized is still needed *for now*, but that working as close as 
possible to upstream is equally important, as the closer we are to 
upstream, the easier it will be to get bugs fixed and features added 
that will help everyone no matter which distro they choose, and 
eventually, no matter how old the packages are in the distro they 
choose. Also, working as closely as possible with upstream will mean 
less work that needs to be done to finally get to the point where only 
things like TalkingArch, which require very little time or effort, will 
be needed in the not-too-distant future, and hopefully there will come a 
day when none of this is needed at all, as everything will come up 
speaking, brailling and whatever else out of the box, with a vare 
minimum of user intervention.

~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Orca only *seems* slightly slower than NVDA to some because it works 
directly with the browser. I'll take that any day over a page taking 
twice as long to load because it first has to be loaded into the 
browser, and then it has to be loaded yet again into NVDA's virtual 
buffer. And forget dynamic content. I expect dynamic content to work, 
not to slow down the whole screen reader because that has to replace 
part of the virtual buffer, or to fail to work at all because the 
virtual buffer is immutable while a page is loaded.


And control+left arrow going to the link I clicked on last? Hell no! 
Give me control+left and right that read by words as expected, which is 
what Orca does. I don't want all that fancy blinky stuff they have on 
Windows that doesn't half work. Give me something that at least mostly 
works, and which can be improved in the near future, which is what I 
feel like I have now. I once heard from Janina Sajka, a well respected 
member of the w3c and the Linux Accessibility Working Group, that 
Firefox + Orca is the best combination currently available. I flatly 
refuse to disagree with that acessment.

~Kyle

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Um, to the non-existent community person, did you really mean to respond 
to me? I believe I ultimately said the same thing. I'm not the one who 
mentioned some "blind community," and I for one also believe this is 
something that simply doesn't exist. I'm just as human as you, and I 
work toward humanization of all humans, not discrimination against any 
human, which is why I also struggle to inform people of the real 
ramifications of the whole "blind" vs "sighted" attitude. Once we can 
get to the place where we are all human whether our eies fully work or 
not, then we can solve a lot more of the world's problems, including the 
"mainstream" vs "specialized" problem.

~Kyle

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

so do those with learning disabilities who also use screen readers. 
Accessible  as defined will differ as well.
further the experience of blindness is not required to program accessible 
installers etc...not that two people with even the same diagnosis 
will experience  blindness the same anyway.Again this distribution  of 
our 
own idea as Tony noted 
is not as productive as incorporating inclusion into main distributions.
The person Tony mentioned a while  working on access for Debian and with 
speakup does not experience sight loss at all.
 Lastly, spoken content is found more and more in general products, no 
reference to sight loss required.
If I ever get around to using Linux outside of the Ubuntu shells I have, 
it will be a main distribution.Karen



On Sun, 23 Apr 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

I'm not sure if I'm following these arguments. Blind users do share some 
common goals in a distribution. An accessible installer, accessible 
applications and so on. I'm also not sure there' needs to be such a strong 
sense of community. There are hundreds of distributions out there now. I'm 
sure there are distributions based on a lot less shared needs then blind 
Linux users have. I say just as any other distribution, put it out there and 
either the users will come or they won't.


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

On 23/04/17 20:16, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

 Again I say what community?
 If one utilized a definition of shared  attributes drawn from the
 majority of those  you consider in your community, one thing you just
 indicated would
   mean you  do not qualify.
 In every major country where figures are available, less than 10% of
 those who are indeed blind read braille.  that means 90% of your
 community do not share something with you, but you feed  a stereotype
 from those outside of your community as you cal it makes it harder for
 that 90%.
 You talking of uniformity where little if any exists, though likely not
 intended, feeds the barriers to understanding by those you define as
 totally outside of your community.
 I prefer to focus on common desires with individual choices.  The more
 choices on the buffet, the greater the number who are fed.

 Kare



 On Sun, 23 Apr 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

>  I am probably the one who made the quit about the "blind community".
>  And yes, that label does cause a "us vs. them response). Still, when
>  it comes to the world in general, we all have to educate others and
>  some of them just won't listen. Frankly, to me, it doesn't matter too
>  much. Every group, regardless of disability, race, etc has its
>  elitists and also has its common folks.
> 
>  Unfortunately, community is needed just now because, without it, no

>  one will listen. If everyone listened, there wouldn't be a need.
> 
>  Now, as for me… I am about as individual as they get. I can function

>  independently, read braille, type pretty fast and I still have my
>  health. I don't like collective groups, but they can be a useful tool
>  for getting some things done. Thats pretty much the same thing with
>  Linux. Its a collective group that has one idea in mind: free and open
>  source. Anything wrong with that? nope!
> 
>  now, perhaps we have gotten a bit off track here.
> 
>  -eric
> 
>  On Apr 23, 2017, at 5:50 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> 
> >  Um, to the non-existent community person, did you really mean to

> >  respond to me? I believe I ultimately said the same thing. I'm not
> >  the one who mentioned some "blind community," and I for one also
> >  believe this is something that simply doesn't exist. I'm just as
> >  human as you, and I work toward humanization of all humans, not
> >  discrimination against any human, which is why I also struggle to
> >  inform people of the real ramifications of the whole "blind" vs
> >  "sighted" attitude. Once we can get to the place where we are all
> >  human whether our eies fully work or not, then we can solve a lot
> >  more of the world's problems, including the "mainstream" vs
> >  "specialized" problem.
> > ~ Kyle
> > 
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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

half a moment.  Where does the idea that sight is any more uniform than 
the experience of blindness come from?  let alone that all those uniformed 
people take vision for granted?
I have never understand such expressions, because they have little basis 
in reality.
If vision was uniformed absolute, then eye witness testimony would be 
decisive, and traffic accidents would be almost nonexistent smiles.

Kare


On Mon, 24 Apr 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


I suspect the person's e-mail client just automatically quoted the
last message in the thread, and to be quite honest, I'd argue most
quoting on these lists is non-sensical, which is why I always uncheck
the "include quoted text" checkbox before starting to type a reply(as
an aside, if anyone knows how to change Gmail's default behavior to
not quote, I'd greatly appreciate it).

That said, I agree that you'd be hard pressed to find anything
everyone in the blind community has in common, but I think the
recognition of the community still has value. As unlikely as it is
that any two people will have the same set of experiences, if one is
dealing with a problem related to vision loss or a product designed
with sighted users in mind, I'd say you'd have better chances of
finding someone who has previously dealt with a similar problem and
can offer relevant advice. Not to say there isn't value in trying to
better educate the sighted on the realities of blindness and vision
loss, but it isn't always easy to get another to comprehend that
something they take for granted is a problem or to provide advice to
help another resolve a problem one finds trivial, and this perspective
gap can be quite profound whether we're talking blind and sighted, cli
user and gui user, professional and layperson, or any of a myriad of
other divisions one could make.

Universal Design and unity in diversity are great ideals to strive
for, but sometimes, practicality demands an in-group works for their
own betterment because the out group can't be motivated to help.

--
Sincerely,

Jeffery Wright
President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa.
Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle.

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

My first comment regarding this thread is, separate is never equal.
Secondly, which actually goes with the vinus discussion...what community?
There is as much individuality among hose who experience sight loss as the 
rest of humanity.  some like windows, others a mac, others Linux or 
another open source platform, some will swore by jaws, others would not 
touch it with a ten foot speaker.  Some never learned to type...at all 
before using a computer, others type at 85 words a minute, a few use 
braille, most do not.  In fact I doubt you can find one consistent factor 
in your so called community.  the higher experience of sight is not perfect 
either.


In fact, if you wonder in general why there are so few tools, with the 
options  getting smaller, it is in part because a handful insist that 
they can create tools for the so called nonexistent blind community.  all 
interchangeable for each other.


Amusingly enough, there was a thread on the main Debian list all 
about 
choice or the lack of it in Linux.  Mostly focused around the presence or 
absences of systems the ability to use whatever hardware you desire etc.
so uniqueness within the distros matters, but as said below the more 
options in the larger distributions the better for all concerned.
Back to the so called community factor.  I am amazed at the idea someone 
else can tell me how I desire to use a computer, just because we share a 
label.  I would not expect every women to speak for my lifestyle, and we 
share a label too.
So, while I respect your desire to work with your smaller distribution, 
keep your "of your own," ideas to yourself.

Kare


On Sun, 23 Apr 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

Regarding my experiences with my clients, my business motto has always been 
"Linux is for everyone," and I don't discriminate. This means that I will 
never make it a policy to serve only blind or visually impaired people, and I 
prefer what are commonly called "mainstream" distros over all else. In fact, 
I have worked more with users with eyeballs, installing and supporting 
traditional distros, than I have with blind or visually impaired people, 
except maybe the support work I've done pro bono on various e-mail lists and 
IRC channels. But after much discussion between the Vinux and Sonar 
developers, it was felt that something specialized is still needed *for now*, 
but that working as close as possible to upstream is equally important, as 
the closer we are to upstream, the easier it will be to get bugs fixed and 
features added that will help everyone no matter which distro they choose, 
and eventually, no matter how old the packages are in the distro they choose. 
Also, working as closely as possible with upstream will mean less work that 
needs to be done to finally get to the point where only things like 
TalkingArch, which require very little time or effort, will be needed in the 
not-too-distant future, and hopefully there will come a day when none of this 
is needed at all, as everything will come up speaking, brailling and whatever 
else out of the box, with a vare minimum of user intervention.

~ Kyle

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I'm not sure if I'm following these arguments. Blind users do share some 
common goals in a distribution. An accessible installer, accessible 
applications and so on. I'm also not sure there' needs to be such a 
strong sense of community. There are hundreds of distributions out there 
now. I'm sure there are distributions based on a lot less shared needs 
then blind Linux users have. I say just as any other distribution, put 
it out there and either the users will come or they won't.


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

On 23/04/17 20:16, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

Again I say what community?
If one utilized a definition of shared  attributes drawn from the
majority of those  you consider in your community, one thing you just
indicated would
  mean you  do not qualify.
In every major country where figures are available, less than 10% of
those who are indeed blind read braille.  that means 90% of your
community do not share something with you, but you feed  a stereotype
from those outside of your community as you cal it makes it harder for
that 90%.
You talking of uniformity where little if any exists, though likely not
intended, feeds the barriers to understanding by those you define as
totally outside of your community.
I prefer to focus on common desires with individual choices.  The more
choices on the buffet, the greater the number who are fed.

Kare



On Sun, 23 Apr 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


I am probably the one who made the quit about the "blind community".
And yes, that label does cause a "us vs. them response). Still, when
it comes to the world in general, we all have to educate others and
some of them just won't listen. Frankly, to me, it doesn't matter too
much. Every group, regardless of disability, race, etc has its
elitists and also has its common folks.

Unfortunately, community is needed just now because, without it, no
one will listen. If everyone listened, there wouldn't be a need.

Now, as for me… I am about as individual as they get. I can function
independently, read braille, type pretty fast and I still have my
health. I don't like collective groups, but they can be a useful tool
for getting some things done. Thats pretty much the same thing with
Linux. Its a collective group that has one idea in mind: free and open
source. Anything wrong with that? nope!

now, perhaps we have gotten a bit off track here.

-eric

On Apr 23, 2017, at 5:50 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


Um, to the non-existent community person, did you really mean to
respond to me? I believe I ultimately said the same thing. I'm not
the one who mentioned some "blind community," and I for one also
believe this is something that simply doesn't exist. I'm just as
human as you, and I work toward humanization of all humans, not
discrimination against any human, which is why I also struggle to
inform people of the real ramifications of the whole "blind" vs
"sighted" attitude. Once we can get to the place where we are all
human whether our eies fully work or not, then we can solve a lot
more of the world's problems, including the "mainstream" vs
"specialized" problem.
~Kyle

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I suspect the person's e-mail client just automatically quoted the
last message in the thread, and to be quite honest, I'd argue most
quoting on these lists is non-sensical, which is why I always uncheck
the "include quoted text" checkbox before starting to type a reply(as
an aside, if anyone knows how to change Gmail's default behavior to
not quote, I'd greatly appreciate it).

That said, I agree that you'd be hard pressed to find anything
everyone in the blind community has in common, but I think the
recognition of the community still has value. As unlikely as it is
that any two people will have the same set of experiences, if one is
dealing with a problem related to vision loss or a product designed
with sighted users in mind, I'd say you'd have better chances of
finding someone who has previously dealt with a similar problem and
can offer relevant advice. Not to say there isn't value in trying to
better educate the sighted on the realities of blindness and vision
loss, but it isn't always easy to get another to comprehend that
something they take for granted is a problem or to provide advice to
help another resolve a problem one finds trivial, and this perspective
gap can be quite profound whether we're talking blind and sighted, cli
user and gui user, professional and layperson, or any of a myriad of
other divisions one could make.

Universal Design and unity in diversity are great ideals to strive
for, but sometimes, practicality demands an in-group works for their
own betterment because the out group can't be motivated to help.

-- 
Sincerely,

Jeffery Wright
President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa.
Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle.

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Again I say what community?
If one utilized a definition of shared  attributes drawn from the majority 
of 
those  you consider in your community, one thing you just indicated would

  mean you  do not qualify.
In every major country where figures are available, less than 10% of those 
who are indeed blind read braille.  that means 90% of your community do 
not share something with you, but you feed  a stereotype from those 
outside of your 
community as you cal it makes it harder for that 90%.
You talking of uniformity where little if any exists, though likely not 
intended, feeds the barriers to understanding by those you define as 
totally outside of your community.
I prefer to focus on common desires with individual choices.  The more 
choices on the buffet, the greater the number who are fed.


Kare



On Sun, 23 Apr 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


I am probably the one who made the quit about the "blind community". And yes, that 
label does cause a "us vs. them response). Still, when it comes to the world in general, 
we all have to educate others and some of them just won't listen. Frankly, to me, it doesn't 
matter too much. Every group, regardless of disability, race, etc has its elitists and also 
has its common folks.

Unfortunately, community is needed just now because, without it, no one will 
listen. If everyone listened, there wouldn't be a need.

Now, as for me… I am about as individual as they get. I can function 
independently, read braille, type pretty fast and I still have my health. I 
don't like collective groups, but they can be a useful tool for getting some 
things done. Thats pretty much the same thing with Linux. Its a collective 
group that has one idea in mind: free and open source. Anything wrong with 
that? nope!

now, perhaps we have gotten a bit off track here.

-eric

On Apr 23, 2017, at 5:50 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


Um, to the non-existent community person, did you really mean to respond to me? I believe I ultimately said the same thing. I'm 
not the one who mentioned some "blind community," and I for one also believe this is something that simply doesn't 
exist. I'm just as human as you, and I work toward humanization of all humans, not discrimination against any human, which is why 
I also struggle to inform people of the real ramifications of the whole "blind" vs "sighted" attitude. Once 
we can get to the place where we are all human whether our eies fully work or not, then we can solve a lot more of the world's 
problems, including the "mainstream" vs "specialized" problem.
~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

The windows version thing is mostly smoke and mirrors.
Until Windows 10, the version stayed at 6.x for a long time...
Even in 10, there are not many changes, they are mostly cosmetic.
NVDA works surprisingly well in Windows.
The thing is, I need 3 different screen readers: JAWS, NVDA, and Window 
Eyes to get the things done I have had to do in Windows.
I have switched almost entirely to Linux now. 
I only have Windows for a few clients who require me to have it.




On Sun, 23 Apr 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


I have no intention of going anywhere near a Windows PC unless I have
to, but does the stable release of NVDA even manage to work well
accross different Windows versions?

Though honestly, give me a text mode browser that lets me navigate
like the page is a text file in nano and has the naviagation shortcuts
Orca adds to Firefox, and I'd probably abandon the GUI altogether.

--
Sincerely,

Jeffery Wright
President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa.
Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle.

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

The biggest problem with all this "stability" stuff is that all
operating systems will have their bugs. Windows has bugs, Mac
has huge cockroaches, and Linux has ants. So it really is a
problem of if a user wants more accessibility, or less bugs, and
it’s not always Orca’s fault.
-- 
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> writes:

> Hi,
>
>
>> Additionally, Fedora is nearly dead center between the Arch philosophy
>> of the rolling release, having the latest and greatest at all costs, and
>> the Debian philosophy, in which older is better, so the latest changes
>> to Orca that make it work better on the web for example, which have been
>> available for some time, may not make it into the OS for as long as two
>
> It is not the Debian philosophy. Debian does not say "older is better",
> but "stable is better", as known and we know how to deal with a
> situation. And an update is possible is if it sure it will not break
> anything in stable.
>
> For persons who want to get benefit from an Orca improvement in Debian
> stable, installing backport is possible. It mainly works fine, without
> problems for the OS stability. But Orca updates may create lots of bugs.
> For example, so far, we hoped we would update from 3.16 to 3.22, but
> 3.22 introduced bugs on the Web and LibreOffice. Ok it's more reactive,
> it has improvements, but also regressions. And "basic" users hate
> regressions, and upgrading permanently has regressions risks. Except if
> we do non-reg tests, as I plan. But it's not done yet.
>
>
>> years. The 6-month release cycle is perfect, as nothing gets too old,
>> and upstream is imported fully and directly at first, with a chance for
>> instability and breakage to settle down before a full release, during
>> which time, new upstream versions can be integrated into the released
>> system if and only if nothing breaks. Meanwhile, any necessary patches
>
> This 6-months cycle is perfect for power-users. Not for elderly persons,
> new blind people, etc. which may be disturbed by so frequent changes and
> regressions. I don't forget that LibreOffice has not been accessible
> since 4.2.6, Firefox introduces many a11y bugs frequently, denounced by
> Joanie, and the a11y stack in GNOME has sometimes bugs if release of
> each lib is not exactly the same. A11y stack is ser1ral programs (about
> 15-20). Very difficult, in a short cycle, to ensure they stay without
> regressions. And upgrading each 6 months requires some skills,
> standalone, and not all users have it. And opposing power users of free
> shftware with beginners with Apple or Microsoft programs is not my
> dream, even today.
>
>> are, in theory at least, sent back directly upstream to the application
>> developers, similar to the way Arch works. And this is not at all the
>> endgame. The ultimate goal is to be able to do away with Vinux
>> completely, as upstream applications themselves will be perfected so
>> that they work with the available accessibility stack, and this will
>> eventually filter down into everything from Arch all the way down to
>> Debian Stable and CentOS, and even into the various derivatives and
>> forks such as Manjaro and Ubuntu. Yes, any chaining is mostly not really
>
> I can agree this point. I just am sure we'd be stronger everybody on a
> single workspace, but we probably can do with our respective distros.
>
> Regards,
>
>> a good thing, but we're much closer to the top of the chain now than we
>> ever have been, and the endgame is to work at the top of the chain in
>> all things.
>> Sent from the range
>> 
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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Okay, I agree with that. But let's look at Brailleback for a good
example of why different isn’t always better.
With note takers, braille displays, all that, they all use the
same set of logical commands for editing text, whereas braille
back has these awkward, hard to remember commands, and o way to
change them.
So, my point is, different isn’t always better, if better known
commands gets the job done fine. Orca’s commands, as they are,
especially insert+t instead of f12, is perfectly fine for me.
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Long days and pleasant nights!

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> writes:

> I'm not a fan of sticking to one set of key mappings just because
> another screen reader on another platform uses it. For me, I'd prefer
> learning a new set of key mappings if they were more intuitive and
> made more sense. I know people claim this is a barrier to people
> moving from Windows to Linux, but I'm not sure that's the case. sure,
> if you were going to use the same desktop and the same applications,
> this might be true, but we're talking about moving to a new operating
> system with a new desktop and new applications. I seriously doubt if a
> screen reader key mappings is really the factor that's keeping people
> from making this transition. I mean if Linux were really just going to
> mimic the Windows experience then why would anyone make the change?
>
> -- 
> Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at Gmail
>
> On 23/04/17 19:47, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>> heh. yeah, right. "gold standard"? more like the 1 troy oz. of gold
>> required to buy it!
>>
>> Now, as for which is better? Neither! each can do some things the
>> other can't. However, NVDA is quickly catching up to the
>> capabilities of JAWS (and already has a substantially greater user
>> base).
>> Now, as for the screen reader keystroke commonality among the
>> various screen readers? not entirely sure that would be possible.
>> NVDA and jaws are close. ORCA (for Linux) can be customized
>> similarly, but its a lot of work. The nice thing I like about
>> BrlTTY, ORCA, emacspeak or some of the other Linux based
>> accessibility tools is that separate drivers don't have to be
>> installed in order to make an external braille device work. They
>> just work (same for apple, btw). Now, I have used both BrlTTY and
>> ORCA since Ubuntu 10.04 and had very little issues with them. SOme
>> things might get a bit quirky, but are reasonably stable. On
>> windows, NVDA is getting better, but the issue there isn't the
>> screen reader (either jaws or NVDA), its the OS (which is a FUBAR
>> Kludge IMHO). So, in a lot of ways, we are better off with the Open
>> Development environment, a greater access to some tools and the
>> ability to share without having to let the evil overlord know what
>> it is we want to do. Now, I do tend to d
> on
>>  ate to those projects that are worthwhile and some of them are on
>> Linux and only 1 is on windows. sure, its a couple of dollars a
>> month, but its worth it.
>>
>> -eric
>>
>> On Apr 23, 2017, at 5:30 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>>
>>> No. It's the attitude of "Why oh why can't Orca be more like Jaws,
>>> the gold standard of utter crap" that will drive many of us away.
>>> No, screen reader developers on different operating systems can't
>>> work together, and I explained exactly why that can't be. If you
>>> can't handle that, and you think I have a negative attitude simply
>>> because I pointed out exactly why it can't work, then that's not my
>>> problem. The issue is portability and reusability of the code, not
>>> the openness of the code in this case.
>>>
>>> And if anyone in this whole world can explain to me something,
>>> anything at all that NVDA implements better than Orca that could be
>>> fixed in Orca by something as simple as a copy/paste, then I
>>> challenge you to copy and paste it and then tell us how much better
>>> it works.
>>> ~Kyle
>>>
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>>
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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Well, I'd love for this resource to be used. I would if I knew anything
about how all that works. There was a guy on the Orca list, the
creator of Liblouis, which asked if anything needed to be done
with Orca development. We told him Braille support, but so far,
nothing has happened in that space for a long while. As a
braille display user, I’d love to have support to rival that in
screen readers for Windows GUI’s, and with inexpensive display
tech on the way, Braille support will be very important for
Linux to have, lest we become the laughing stock of the blind
community.
"Oh wow. That Linux thing? Yeah, shows the power of the people
so well. They can’t even make good Braille support, with all
these $400 displays out! Lol, give me NVDA any day. At least it
supports showing formatting info and word wrap, and none of the
display programs on Linux even support typing in grade 2
Braille!"
So really, speech in Linux is pretty darn good, but Braille
needs plenty of work.
-- 
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Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> writes:

> This is the kind of thing we created the International Association Of
> Visually Impaired Technologists for. It has donated server space and
> is incorporated legally as a nonprofit (501C3) in the USA.  The
> infrastructure is available if you care to put it to use.
>
>
> --
>
> John Heim
>
>
>
>
>
> On 04/23/2017 12:00 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>> ok,
>>
>> differing arches all have the same source in common. So, maintaining for 
>> them is actually easier than you might think. All that would really be 
>> required to make an arch specific package is the proper scripts that patch 
>> and package for that arch. Otherwise, the source code, itself, is pretty 
>> common across all arches.
>>
>> Now, I have done this in the past. Used a source tar ball and compiled on a 
>> debian based system and also compiled on a RedHat based system and in both 
>> cases, the utility that I compiled functioned the same and required the same 
>> libraries and development tools.
>>
>> THere is also the use of a ports tree (As seen in the BSD ecology). I have 
>> been able to compile some linux tools over there, but the ports tree is a 
>> bit limited and still depends on developer support. So, in that case, it 
>> could be problematic.
>>
>> Someone else pointed out that we may need an organization fronting some 
>> development as a means to get patches and packages reviewed faster. Perhaps 
>> we need to take a look at the guys at the NV Association (the makers of 
>> NVDA, the free windows screen reader). THey have a fairly sizable 
>> fundraising network and do a lot of work with some paid developers. Also, 
>> the guys running the organization are a pair of blind programers. Now, if we 
>> could get them involved, it might help to enhance operations in creating a 
>> standardized accessibility package set that can be arch independent.
>>
>> Now, mind you, I am not a coder. I can operate a compiler, even make some 
>> simple changes to get a compile working, but thats about as far as my 
>> developer skills go. My forte is security, intrusion detection, firewall 
>> scripting and auditing as well as advanced system administration. And yes, 
>> my preferred OS in a secure environment is in the BSD ecology. However, as a 
>> recent exchange with Theo DeRaadt demonstrates, there are just some folks 
>> who won't even consider supporting the idea of making an OS accessible. In 
>> fact (as that recent exchange demonstrated), they might just go out of their 
>> way to impede progress in this area.
>>
>> anyway, given all that we are striving for, some good help can be had out 
>> there (like the aforementioned NV association). It's just a matter of 
>> getting them onboard.
>>
>> -eric
>>
>> On Apr 23, 2017, at 4:13 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/18/2017 8:23 AM, Eric Oyen wrote:
>>>> here is one thing that might be distro independent: create an 
>>>> accessibility package set. This would include the required libs, scripts, 
>>>> binaries and config files needed to make any distro accessible. It would 
>>>> include emacspeak, BrlTTY, ORCA, the appropriate audio drivers and 
>>>> libraries and even access to the kernel modules required to make it all 
>>>> work.
>>>
>>> While great in p

Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Why do I want insert+f12 to tell me the time when insert+t, (t for 
time), can do that for me just fine and more intuitively? How is f12 
better than t, which stands for time? No, that's simply not a logical 
keybinding, and I don't want it in Orca. BTDubs, holding in the insert 
Orca key and double tapping t for time does tell me the date. So again I 
ask what the hell does f12 mean and why is it needed to do the same 
thing that t already does?

~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I'm not saying you would want it, but long-time NVDA and Jaws users would.
-- 
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> writes:

> Why do I want insert+f12 to tell me the time when insert+t, (t for
> time), can do that for me just fine and more intuitively? How is f12
> better than t, which stands for time? No, that's simply not a logical
> keybinding, and I don't want it in Orca. BTDubs, holding in the insert
> Orca key and double tapping t for time does tell me the date. So again
> I ask what the hell does f12 mean and why is it needed to do the same
> thing that t already does?
> ~Kyle
>
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Fwd: [Technology Preview] A new installer for Ubuntu Server images

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Has anyone tested this for accessibility? I know the old server installer 
did include Speakup in the kernel but no software speech. Has this been 
resolved in this new image? Luke, can you or anyone from Canonical comment 
on this?



 Forwarded Message 
Subject: [Technology Preview] A new installer for Ubuntu Server images
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 17:01:36 -0400
From: Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre 
Reply-To: ubuntu-devel-disc...@lists.ubuntu.com
To: ubuntu-devel-annou...@lists.ubuntu.com

Hi,

During the 17.04 development cycle, the Ubuntu Foundations team has been
working on
a new experimental installer for servers.  We are now ready to get
feedback from a wider audience.

A 17.04 technical preview image for Ubuntu Server using the new
subiquity installer
is available here:

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-server/zesty/tech-preview/

We'd love to get your feedback on it!

It can be used as an ISO image when booting a virtual machine, or
burnt to CD/written to a USB key to test on actual hardware, just as you
would the official server ISO image;
see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto
for more information.

While the installer experience is all new and covers only a subset of
the use cases
supported by the standard server image, once installed you should find
the same
Ubuntu Server environment that you know and love.  If you notice any
differences,
please send us bug reports at
.

Finally, there are some known issues we're working on already:

- The proposed updates are enabled on the installed system, which is
strongly discouraged
  for a production system.  This can be fixed by removing the file
   /etc/apt/sources.list.d/proposed.list.
- There are no login prompts on virtual terminals other than VT1
(which means you can't
   hit Ctrl-alt-F2 to switch to a shell).

I'll take this moment to thank Michael Hudson-Doyle, who has done a huge
amount of
work on getting this ready, as well as Ryan Harper and Adam Stokes who
drove early development
of subiquity.

Best regards,
Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre on behalf of the Ubuntu Foundations team.

--
Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre 
Freenode: cyphermox, Jabber: mathieu...@gmail.com
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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Your name isn't showing up for some reason. You make some good arguments. 
Comments below.


On 4/21/2017 6:05 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

My only concern with this argument is that it seems like it takes longer to
get fixes pushed up stream then it does to spin up a custom distribution. It
also seems to me that a lot of what's needed in a custom distribution is
packaging and customization as opposed to programming.


From my experience, mostly what's needed is custom scripts and config 
files. A lot of this could be done with custom packages. A thought I had was 
asking for community submissions of scripts which make programs more 
accessible. They could be put into either a tar archive or .deb package 
which anyone could install on any system as config files aren't arch or 
platform specific. I decided it would be too hard for one person to keep up 
with and make sure new versions didn't break the old config files.


Initially, yes, it would take longer to get fixes pushed upstream. That's 
why I suggest working with the upstream software developers and not the 
distro developers. That way, a fix to ALSA or Firefox is picked up by all 
major distros instead of one at a time. However, in some cases, that isn't 
possible. I'm referring to installers. If a few unknown people submit 
patches, the review process takes a long time and the patches might not be 
accepted. If a nonprofit organization is formed specifically for that 
purpose and not only submits patches but posts them either on github or 
similar, not only do they get more review but they are more likely to be 
taken seriously since there is an actual organization behind them. I know 
there are exceptions, but I think most people take Apache, Mozilla and Gnome 
much more seriously than a single, random developer. When they know your 
reputation and you have submitted enough patches, you can commit directly 
upstream, but as you say, that takes a long time. Case in point, it can take 
years to be an official Debian developer who can maintain packages without 
review.


I look at Vinux and Ubuntu as an example. It seems like Luke and the Vinux
developers were able to get a lot more accomplished in a lot less time
working with Vinux then they were able to do by trying to push things
upstream in Ubuntu. Focusing on getting changes upstream, when there could
have been a Vinux available, would have meant fewer blind Linux users and
some of those blind Linux users would have spent more of their own time
setting up and customizing Ubuntu and finding and installing accessible
applications. If you think vinux users are going to just quit and give up
when they run into a Linux issue, I'd think that problem would be even more
prevalent if they didn't have a Vinux where a lot of the work was already
done for them.


Yes and no. First, don't forget that Vinux was itself based on Ubuntu. It 
wasn't built from scratch. Ubuntu had serious accessibility problems in the 
past. I wouldn't say it's perfect now, but it's a lot better. Arch might be 
more current for the desktop, but it's a lot harder to install. For a 
mainstream, graphical distro, Ubuntu MATE is very good. When I tried Vinux, 
it had a broken installer and the system crashed. I got a few comments that 
people gave up for those reasons. I understand the major bugs are fixed now, 
but it still doesn't use what I would consider a friendly, customizable 
installer. While I'm opposed to blind-centric distros, I realize they have 
their place and some people want them. I think what you say below makes very 
good sense. Create a custom distro based on Fedora or whatever. When it's 
stable, work with upstream to get those customizations included. What I 
would like to see is a custom flavor of Ubuntu MATE. It would boot up 
talking and have the features of Vinux but would be supported by the Ubuntu 
developers and use the Ubuntu installer. Remember that just as 95% of Ubuntu 
is based on Debian, at least 95% of Vinux is based on Ubuntu. Really, in 
terms of code and custom packages, we're talking about a small number of 
bytes compared to the overall distro. To me, it makes little sense to waste 
a lot of time recycling 95% or more of what another distro has already done 
just for a few little fixes.




IMHO, I think a hybrid approach is the way to go. Build a custom
distribution, prove that it can work, build up your blind user base and work
to get those changes upstream. I know it seems like this is spreading an
already thin resource even thinner, but I think it's the most likely road to
success.


I hadn't thought of this in that way, but I think you have something. The 
big problem with any niche distro, blind or not, is the small user base and 
lack of support. If you can get even, say, a dozen developers and dedicated 
support people and build up a solid user base, that speaks louder to 
mainstream distros than a few blind guys playing around with a distro one or 
two others put

Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi,


It's a good idea, indeed. FYI, Debian has started a such project in Blends:

http://blends.debian.org/accessibility


Maybe it can be a point of beginning of a packages list with a tree?


Alternatively, to create a kind of structure of packages with deps, we
can use a wiki such as

http://trac.clfs.org/wiki/cblfs#CBLFS


Regards,




Le 18/04/2017 à 17:23, Eric Oyen a écrit :
> here is one thing that might be distro independent: create an accessibility 
> package set. This would include the required libs, scripts, binaries and 
> config files needed to make any distro accessible. It would include 
> emacspeak, BrlTTY, ORCA, the appropriate audio drivers and libraries and even 
> access to the kernel modules required to make it all work.
>
> Now, since some of the packages needed will be dependencies for other things 
> (like sound and scripting like python), it shouldn't be all that difficult to 
> gather everything else. 
>
> Having this setup so that any distro can be made accessible would definitely 
> be a plus. Honestly, making this a standard package set will go a long way 
> toward allowing us access to any distro, regardless of package management 
> system, layout or Desktop environment.
>
> -eric
>
> On Apr 18, 2017, at 7:28 AM, John G Heim wrote:
>
>> Just fedora? Not vidora or something like that? Hey, if you guys end up 
>> calling your distro vidora, I want credit. :-)
>>
>> I look at the debate over whether it is better to have a distro for the 
>> blind or to work on improving mainstream distros like the debate over barley 
>> versus wheat beers. Personally, I prefer barley beers over any and all wheat 
>> beers. But if someone wants to brew a wheat beer, it's fine with me and I'd 
>> even help out if they asked. It's a matter of good and better. In other 
>> words, my opinion is that even if you think it would be better if these 
>> developers spent their time on mainstream distros, we should all still 
>> recognize that what they are doing is really helpful.  Don't let the perfect 
>> be the enemy of the good.
>>
>> On 04/18/2017 08:45 AM, Jude dDaShiell wrote:
>>> Last i read, both sonargnulinux and vinux were in the process of merging
>>> into Fedora and that first release was supposed to have happened
>>> sometime in April 2017 and would be called Fedora 26.0.  What has
>>> happened since then I do not now know.
>>>
>>> Sent from BlueMail  for iPhone
>>>
>>> On Apr 18, 2017 at 6:32 AM, Tony Baechler >> > wrote:
>>> Sorry for the late reply, but see comments below.
>>>
>>> On 3/16/2017 3:36 PM, Joel Roth wrote:
 Eric Oyen wrote:

> ...we, as a community, don't have an actual unified distro
> to call our own. Sure, Vinux is a decent distro, but it's
> lacking a lot of useful features outside of accessibility.
>>> OK, but why do we, as a community, need a special distro? Yes, it's free
>>> software, so there is certainly nothing stopping you as long as you realize
>>> it's your pet distro along with the about 300 others on distrowatch.com
>>> . I
>>> would much rather have a popular, mainstream distro which includes great
>>> accessibility like Debian and derivatives.
>>>
 I'm not sure how things are at present, but in the past,
 Debian has shown some commitment to supporting
 accessibility[1], including at the installer level[2].
>>> Yes, Debian still supports accessibility. Every alpha release of D-I has
>>> accessibility features and fixes.
>>>
 This is not the same as a special-purpose distribution, and
 I think the pages were written some time ago. Still I would
 think that some effort would be worthwhile, and would
 benefit all Debian derivatives, which could include
 a accessbility-centric distribution.

 1. https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility
 2. https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility#Debian_installer_accessibility
>>> These pages should be fairly current and are often updated by Debian
>>> developers like Samuel Thibault.
>>>
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Re: Any Currently Working Weather Apps?

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Thanks Tony-and-all: My other anoying issue with "wx" script, it stops like 
half-way through the forecast, so I must type "wx -x" and type airport codes 
directly. And lastly some of you can see, I changed my first name to

Chime

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Re: command line fan fiction program?

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I'm afraid their navigation could use work, so I usually do google
searches and add "site:archive.org" to my query.

-tim

On April 18, 2017, Al Sten-Clanton wrote:
> Any tips for getting around archives.org?  Somebody recommended it
> to me a few weeks ago, so I gave it a quick shot.  I was looking
> for old-time radio stuff.  I failed to find anything, for all the
> crawling around I did.  I'll therefore be grateful for any pointers
> on using it.
> 
> Al
> 
> On 4/18/2017 9:29 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> > Tony,
> > I am a firm believer in synchronicity.
> > What makes your post hug worthy is that I was just wondering about
> > archives.org.  Reasoning being that sometimes a writer decides,
> > either by accident or intention to delete all their
> > fanfiction.net  work.  I recently found an hp  story by such a
> > writer, wondered about their other creations, and
> > thoughth wonder if archives.org has anything? That was
> > last night,  I check mail this morning to find your post. So...
> > *hugs*
> > Thanks!
> > Kare
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 18 Apr 2017, Tony Baechler wrote:
> >
> >> Again, as usual, sorry for the lateness, but search for
> >> fanfiction on archive.org. Archive Team uploaded a huge dump of
> >> the fanfiction.net site, perfect for offline reading, assuming
> >> it's still there. Be warned that it's very huge! Don't download
> >> on a slow connection or with limited disk space. I'm not sure if
> >> new stuff is added and I don't remember the upload date offhand,
> >> so probably a few years old by now, but still a huge amount of
> >> reading material. It's a full or nearly complete site dump, so
> >> should be navigable with any browser.
> >>
> >> On 3/22/2017 6:00 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
> >>>  (yes, both your original post and your nudge came through)
> >>>
> >>>  Am I missing something in particular?  I visited the site in
> >>>  Lynx-the-cat and was able to get to a number of the fanfic
> >>> works without any issue.  Just to sample, I went in by Movie
> >>> and sampled some of the X-Men works, and went in by TV Show and
> >>> sampled some of the M*A*S*H works.  They all came back as HTML.
> >>>
> >>>  If you're looking for a scraper, the classic "wget" tool should
> >>>  provide the ability to scrape a subset of the site.  You might
> >>> then have to do some post-cleanup if you don't want all the
> >>> site-related periphery.
> >>>
> >>>  -tim
> >>>
> >>>  On March 22, 2017, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >>> >  there is a site  called fan fiction.
> >>> >  www.fanfiction.net
> >>> >  A very long time ago it was possible to download items
> >>> > there, but now one must use a third party application.
> >>> >  I am wondering if there is a command line tool, something
> >>> > that might be a part of the Ubuntu distribution since that is
> >>> > what I have both at shellworld and via dreamhost that can get
> >>> > the works converting them into well anything?
> >>> >  via robobraille I can convert both epub and pdf into  text.
> >>>
> >>>  ___
> >>>  Blinux-list mailing list
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> >>>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray
> >> one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a
> >> righteous man availeth much in its working. (ASV)
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ___
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> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> 
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Re: command line fan fiction program?

[Linux for blind general discussion]

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 6:29 AM, Karen Lewellen
 wrote:
> I am a firm believer in synchronicity.
> What makes your post hug worthy is that I was just wondering about
> archives.org.  Reasoning being that sometimes a writer decides, either by
> accident or intention to delete all their fanfiction.net  work.  I recently
> found an hp  story by such a writer, wondered about their other creations,
> and thoughth wonder if archives.org has anything?
> That was last night,  I check mail this morning to find your post.

If you happen to use the Chromium or Google Chrome browsers, there's
an extension you might try that lets you search your choice of six or
seven different web archives. I use it every day.


Best regards,

Paul

-- 
[Notice not included in the above original message:  The U.S. National
Security Agency neither confirms nor denies that it intercepted this
message.]

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Okay, lets just make this perfectly clear. You don't care that a new 
user trying to switch from Windows to linux would be confused by having 
to learn all new shortcut keys, right? You are saying that in your 
opinion insert+t just makes so much more sense than F12 that it is more 
important than whether new users are confused by that shortcut key -- 
not to mention all the others. They can just tough it out, right? Is 
that fair to say?


PS: Technically, I am not arguing that F12 should be the standard. I am 
arguing that there should be a standard and whether it's insert+t or F12 
isn't really to the point. To be fair, I think it would be next to 
impossible to get Freedom Scientific to change to insert+t and therefore 
it would be next to impossible to get nvda to change.


-- John Heim


On 04/24/2017 10:29 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
No. F12 does not mean time in any language. F12 may be a Jaws thing, 
and it may even be an NVDA thing, but it's far from a standard. Last I 
checked, time wasn't spelled with an f anything. Therefore, f12 
telling me the time is stupid and illogical at best. I want my t damn 
it. T for time, t for tell, t for anything you like, but don't make me 
learn a completely stupid and illogical key combination simply because 
some proprietary power decided long ago that t for time was somehow 
insufficient. If you want f12 or even the page down key to tell you 
the time, by all means, please do configure Orca that way, for 
yourself. Those of us who have used Orca, and even those of us who 
came to Orca from somewhere else, fully appreciate the benefits of 
Orca's mnemonic keybindings over the stupid and illogical ones we had 
to learn in other screen readers just to get them to do basic things.

~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Well, the serial terminal is also built into the kernel.  you're just 
depending a a different set of maintainers. A serial terminal is no 
where near as usable as speakup is at boot time. You talk about a serial 
terminal needing only another machine like an RP but that's not entirely 
true. You need a null modem cable and you need a terminal emulator 
configured on the other machine. You need to make sure you have the 
right baud rate, etcetra. In an emergency, that's a hassle.



And speakup is not obsolete.  It's under active development.  I am going 
to say there has been over 100 messages on the speakup list from the 
developers in the month of April. There have been so many that I haven't 
even seen exactly what fixes they are making.



-- John Heim








On 04/24/2017 10:45 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
Boot messages can be sent out via a serial console, without the help 
of a screen reader locked into the kernel, where it is harder to fix 
bugs and harder to keep it updated, as the whole kernel has to be 
updated along with it. I know the serial console works, as I have a 
uart header on my computer with a cable that allows me to debug any 
problems I find in boot messages, and even in boot loader messages 
that are shown prior to "starting kernel ...", from any other machine 
that has a USB port. And there is yet another thing. I can use any 
computer with a USB port and fully interact with the machine where I 
need to see its boot messages, which is something I cannot do with 
Speakup on any kernel as of now, and I don't have to purchase a very 
expensive and quite obsolete hardware speech synthesizer to see my 
kernel and boot loader messages either, as if I have no other machine 
I can use to access boot messages, a $35 Raspberry Pi or even a $15 
Orange Pi will do quite nicely.


Frankly, everything that Speakup can possibly do can be done by any 
number of other applications and even any number of other kernels. 
Most users only use software speech for daily tasks, and Fenrir covers 
that. Others need to see boot messages occasionally, and a serial 
console is best for that. It would seem now that Speakup is pretty 
much obsolete, so even if it was to find its way into the stable 
kernel tree tomorrow, it would be far too little too late for me, as I 
have already found better solutions.

~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

F12 isn't stupid. It's a perfectly reasonable choice. Someone else might 
argue that orca+t is stupid because to them, t means table. Or tab. Or 
maybe they speak swahili and their word for time starts with a q or an x.



-- John Heim



On 04/24/2017 05:49 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
No. Long-time Jaws and NVDA users can figure out that t stands for 
time and use that instead, just like all the rest of us who used 
something else before we got to Orca. And if they really want 
something as stupid as f12, they can configure it in Orca's 
keybindings tab.

~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Boot messages can be sent out via a serial console, without the help of 
a screen reader locked into the kernel, where it is harder to fix bugs 
and harder to keep it updated, as the whole kernel has to be updated 
along with it. I know the serial console works, as I have a uart header 
on my computer with a cable that allows me to debug any problems I find 
in boot messages, and even in boot loader messages that are shown prior 
to "starting kernel ...", from any other machine that has a USB port. 
And there is yet another thing. I can use any computer with a USB port 
and fully interact with the machine where I need to see its boot 
messages, which is something I cannot do with Speakup on any kernel as 
of now, and I don't have to purchase a very expensive and quite obsolete 
hardware speech synthesizer to see my kernel and boot loader messages 
either, as if I have no other machine I can use to access boot messages, 
a $35 Raspberry Pi or even a $15 Orange Pi will do quite nicely.


Frankly, everything that Speakup can possibly do can be done by any 
number of other applications and even any number of other kernels. Most 
users only use software speech for daily tasks, and Fenrir covers that. 
Others need to see boot messages occasionally, and a serial console is 
best for that. It would seem now that Speakup is pretty much obsolete, 
so even if it was to find its way into the stable kernel tree tomorrow, 
it would be far too little too late for me, as I have already found 
better solutions.

~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

No. F12 does not mean time in any language. F12 may be a Jaws thing, and 
it may even be an NVDA thing, but it's far from a standard. Last I 
checked, time wasn't spelled with an f anything. Therefore, f12 telling 
me the time is stupid and illogical at best. I want my t damn it. T for 
time, t for tell, t for anything you like, but don't make me learn a 
completely stupid and illogical key combination simply because some 
proprietary power decided long ago that t for time was somehow 
insufficient. If you want f12 or even the page down key to tell you the 
time, by all means, please do configure Orca that way, for yourself. 
Those of us who have used Orca, and even those of us who came to Orca 
from somewhere else, fully appreciate the benefits of Orca's mnemonic 
keybindings over the stupid and illogical ones we had to learn in other 
screen readers just to get them to do basic things.

~Kyle

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Re: switching lists

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I'm not really bothered by the anonymity the list now has, nor was I
bothered by the spam that lead to the anonymity, but would you mind
providing instructions on how to join these other lists?

I'm already on both this list and the Raspberry Vi list(which focuses
specifically on accessibility on the Raspberry Pi and other single
board computers), but given how almost no one ever talks about
accessibility in more mainstream Linux discussions, it can't hurt to
be listening in to as many accessibility specific lists as possible.

-- 
Sincerely,

Jeffery Wright
President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa.
Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle.

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document conversion utilities was Re: the Sonar thread

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> writes:

> the following command line utilities are all useful:
>
> catdoc for .doc and I believe .rtf(and I believe catdoc also includes
> commands to handle xls and ppt).
*snip*
> Granted, I know of no command line tools for dealing with ePub or
> Kindle

Most of the formats mentioned in this message, including epub, are
covered by pandoc.  Nope, it doesn't do Kindle.  It also will not read
PDF files, but it can write them.  It's really the most useful and
universal document-converting tool out there, and I highly recommend it.
It can even go the other way and convert Markdown to various word
processor formats, and that's really useful.

-- Chris

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Re: Blind vs. mainstream distros

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Ok, I have been following this discussion and it is very interesting.  
Doug Smith here.  I have just had to change over to antergos.  It is 
really good, seems stable, and, though it is not what we might call a 
specialized distro, it works well with orca on gnome.



It is a modification of arch with an installer that makes it easier to 
install and that's all I can see that is different about it.  I would 
still call it a mainstream distro.



The really great story I am about to tell here happened Saturday night.  
I was looking for liblouisutdml.  I wanted to have it on here with the 
soon appearance of low-cost braille tech.  I emailed them at the contact 
address on their web site and asked for liblouisutdml to be included in 
the package repos.  I thought it would be included in the aur but was I 
wrong.



Dustin, his last name escapes me at the moment, said that he would be 
glad to put it in and to check the repo in a few hours. I did and it 
came right into my home and installed.  Talk about caring about 
accessibility, that's how it gets done.



Last year, a bunch of us on the orca list found this little gem and have 
been using it for a while.  Go and get it if you don't have it.



http://www.antergos.com


It is arch with an easy to use installer which is graphical for those 
who prefer guis and it works flawlessly with orca.  I have my favorite 
terminal programs on here as well as my favorites from the graphical 
world and it all seems to work fine.



Another story is bug fixes.  One of the last versions last year had a 
minor pulseaudio problem which wouldn't work with my usb headset, but 
now it is working fine.





Hope this helps.




Doug Smith





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switching lists

[Linux for blind general discussion]

John, I am subscribed to both lists.  I think the main problem with 
switching is what Karen said a few messages back.

People are not comfortable with change.
Maybe we should just take some threads over there.
This list is almost useless when you search the archives as there are not 
individual authors anymore.

This is due to the way it has been reconfigured.
I am on this list, the accessibility list for GNU, and the iavit list.
kp


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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I use Emacs, with Boodler, as a Talking Clock. There is a sound scape
that speaks time every 15 minutes.
-- 
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> writes:

> For reading, if I can't read it in Firefox, I usually convert it to
> plain text and read it in nano.
>
> Gmail's view as HTML function works for most attached documents, and
> the following command line utilities are all useful:
>
> catdoc for .doc and I believe .rtf(and I believe catdoc also includes
> commands to handle xls and ppt).
> odt2txt works for OpenDocument Format, which is the most notable
> format Gmail can't convert to html.
> html2text handles whatever I get from Gmail's conversion or web pages
> I save for offline reference.
> pdftotext which is part of poppler-utils does fairly well, though
> formatting sometimes causes converted files having text out of order.
> pdfimages could be used to extract images from a PDF for feeding to an
> OCR program.
>
> Granted, I know of no command line tools for dealing with ePub or
> Kindle formats, and while my talking eReader can handle most formats,
> it doesn't do Kindle.
>
> Personally, I wish more eBook services offered plain text versions of
> their content.
>
> And for what it's worth, as someone who doesn't use braille, I'd
> rather there was a version of Orca that was only a screen reader
> instead of being forced to install braille support I don't use, and I
> suspect there are at least a few braille users with no interest in
> speech who would like the option of installing braille support with
> having to install a screen reader or speech synth.
>
> As for the which keystroke should my screen reader's talking clock be
> attached to:
> 1. I didn't even know that was a feature in some screen readers,
> though apparently it doesn't work with either combination mentioned on
> my install of Orca(granted, I'm running the most bare bones of
> xservers I can instead of a proper desktop environment).
> 2. I think we might be getting too caught up in trivial details.
> Besides, I have trouble imagining someone giving Linux a try and being
> tripped up by something so small. Trying Linux isn't something the
> non-Power user is likely to do without much prodding from a power
> user, and I would think anyone who could be scared off by this would
> either be scared off much sooner, or wouldn't make the attempt.
> 3. My bedroom has four devices with talking clock functionality, and
> in the unlikely event that I'm at my keyboard without having at least
> one of them within arm's reach, I can always google time. Now, maybe
> I'm not representative of screen reader users, but it seems likely
> that most screen reader users own at least one talking clock, and
> quite frankly, no matter which key binding is used, this seems like
> the kind of thing most wouldn't even know exists(I've been using Orca
> daily for over 4 years, and this is the first time I've heard of this
> feature period), and it certainly is the kind of functionality one is
> likely to stumble upon by accident(who even thinks to try hotkey
> combinations involving the insert key?).

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Re: IAVIT - Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Email me off list at j...@iavit.org. Our server is more of a meeting 
place than a development environment. We can save you the cost of 
hosting and a domain name. We can give you space to host your downloads, 
the email list, plus a blog or a wiki for documentation.





On 04/24/2017 05:34 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
I would be interested in your offer. I would need a decent build 
environment for kernel images with the Speakup patches. My existing 
server is eventually going away. I would need decent hardware with 
enough memory. I don't think it would be hard to automate the kernel 
building process. I would also need hosting for the .deb packages. 
While I'm at it, I would want space for my rescue CD. An announce 
mailing list would be a nice bonus but not necessary. I can give you 
exact space requirements if interested. I know kernel images take a 
lot of space to build, especially in a clean chroot environment. The 
distro doesn't matter as everything would be done in 32-bit and 64-bit 
chroots.


Baechler Access Technology Services, bats at batsupport dot com

On 4/23/2017 4:20 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

This is the kind of thing we created the International Association Of
Visually Impaired Technologists for. It has donated server space and is
incorporated legally as a nonprofit (501C3) in the USA.  The 
infrastructure

is available if you care to put it to use.


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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

My God! No one is /making/ you use it! It, is, a, choice, damn it! Just
because one person wants it one way doesn’t mean it’s how it
/has/ to be!
-- 
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> writes:

> No. F12 does not mean time in any language. F12 may be a Jaws thing,
> and it may even be an NVDA thing, but it's far from a standard. Last I
> checked, time wasn't spelled with an f anything. Therefore, f12
> telling me the time is stupid and illogical at best. I want my t damn
> it. T for time, t for tell, t for anything you like, but don't make me
> learn a completely stupid and illogical key combination simply because
> some proprietary power decided long ago that t for time was somehow
> insufficient. If you want f12 or even the page down key to tell you
> the time, by all means, please do configure Orca that way, for
> yourself. Those of us who have used Orca, and even those of us who
> came to Orca from somewhere else, fully appreciate the benefits of
> Orca's mnemonic keybindings over the stupid and illogical ones we had
> to learn in other screen readers just to get them to do basic things.
> ~Kyle
>
> ___
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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

For reading, if I can't read it in Firefox, I usually convert it to
plain text and read it in nano.

Gmail's view as HTML function works for most attached documents, and
the following command line utilities are all useful:

catdoc for .doc and I believe .rtf(and I believe catdoc also includes
commands to handle xls and ppt).
odt2txt works for OpenDocument Format, which is the most notable
format Gmail can't convert to html.
html2text handles whatever I get from Gmail's conversion or web pages
I save for offline reference.
pdftotext which is part of poppler-utils does fairly well, though
formatting sometimes causes converted files having text out of order.
pdfimages could be used to extract images from a PDF for feeding to an
OCR program.

Granted, I know of no command line tools for dealing with ePub or
Kindle formats, and while my talking eReader can handle most formats,
it doesn't do Kindle.

Personally, I wish more eBook services offered plain text versions of
their content.

And for what it's worth, as someone who doesn't use braille, I'd
rather there was a version of Orca that was only a screen reader
instead of being forced to install braille support I don't use, and I
suspect there are at least a few braille users with no interest in
speech who would like the option of installing braille support with
having to install a screen reader or speech synth.

As for the which keystroke should my screen reader's talking clock be
attached to:
1. I didn't even know that was a feature in some screen readers,
though apparently it doesn't work with either combination mentioned on
my install of Orca(granted, I'm running the most bare bones of
xservers I can instead of a proper desktop environment).
2. I think we might be getting too caught up in trivial details.
Besides, I have trouble imagining someone giving Linux a try and being
tripped up by something so small. Trying Linux isn't something the
non-Power user is likely to do without much prodding from a power
user, and I would think anyone who could be scared off by this would
either be scared off much sooner, or wouldn't make the attempt.
3. My bedroom has four devices with talking clock functionality, and
in the unlikely event that I'm at my keyboard without having at least
one of them within arm's reach, I can always google time. Now, maybe
I'm not representative of screen reader users, but it seems likely
that most screen reader users own at least one talking clock, and
quite frankly, no matter which key binding is used, this seems like
the kind of thing most wouldn't even know exists(I've been using Orca
daily for over 4 years, and this is the first time I've heard of this
feature period), and it certainly is the kind of functionality one is
likely to stumble upon by accident(who even thinks to try hotkey
combinations involving the insert key?).

-- 
Sincerely,

Jeffery Wright
President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa.
Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle.

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Re: document conversion utilities was Re: the Sonar thread

[Linux for blind general discussion]

calibre's ebook-convert does pdf and epub to some extent as well as some 
of those propriatory formats, as long as there is no drm on them.

HTH, Willem


On Mon, 24 Apr 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> writes:


the following command line utilities are all useful:

catdoc for .doc and I believe .rtf(and I believe catdoc also includes
commands to handle xls and ppt).

*snip*

Granted, I know of no command line tools for dealing with ePub or
Kindle


Most of the formats mentioned in this message, including epub, are
covered by pandoc.  Nope, it doesn't do Kindle.  It also will not read
PDF files, but it can write them.  It's really the most useful and
universal document-converting tool out there, and I highly recommend it.
It can even go the other way and convert Markdown to various word
processor formats, and that's really useful.

-- Chris

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Screen readers cannot give boot messages anyways, with software speech.
-- 
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> writes:

> Boot messages can be sent out via a serial console, without the help
> of a screen reader locked into the kernel, where it is harder to fix
> bugs and harder to keep it updated, as the whole kernel has to be
> updated along with it. I know the serial console works, as I have a
> uart header on my computer with a cable that allows me to debug any
> problems I find in boot messages, and even in boot loader messages
> that are shown prior to "starting kernel ...", from any other machine
> that has a USB port. And there is yet another thing. I can use any
> computer with a USB port and fully interact with the machine where I
> need to see its boot messages, which is something I cannot do with
> Speakup on any kernel as of now, and I don't have to purchase a very
> expensive and quite obsolete hardware speech synthesizer to see my
> kernel and boot loader messages either, as if I have no other machine
> I can use to access boot messages, a $35 Raspberry Pi or even a $15
> Orange Pi will do quite nicely.
>
> Frankly, everything that Speakup can possibly do can be done by any
> number of other applications and even any number of other kernels.
> Most users only use software speech for daily tasks, and Fenrir covers
> that. Others need to see boot messages occasionally, and a serial
> console is best for that. It would seem now that Speakup is pretty
> much obsolete, so even if it was to find its way into the stable
> kernel tree tomorrow, it would be far too little too late for me, as I
> have already found better solutions.
> ~Kyle
>
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Re: blinux list Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I wouldn't mind moving to a new list.
-- 
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> writes:

> It's not true that Red Hat did what they could do as quickly as they
> could do it. The spam problem went on for months before some of us
> finally started to make an issue of it. Even then it tooke a couple of
> weeks before anything was done. Secondly, they should have removed the
> spammer from the list instead of changing the list settings.  I got
> all kinds of pushback on my assertion that it was clearly a spam bot
> subscribed to the list. But, of course, that's been proven to have
> been true. I am sure now I'll get pushback on my assertion that you
> can figure out who the spammer was. Heck, it might be as easy as
> checking the list of subscribers.
>
>
> Like I said when this first came up, I vote for taking it to
> iavit.org. I feel we all have a vested interested in promoting IAVIT.
> I am the Presidet of IAVIT but I'm just trying to provide a service
> for the blind community as a whole.
>
>
> -- John Heim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 04/24/2017 06:14 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>> Tony,
>> First of all, as far as I've been able to deduce over the years,
>> everyone *cares* about accessibility. The problem is that no one
>> *knows how* to best address any issues with it. Red Hat certainly
>> does care. If they didn't care, they wouldn't ship Orca, or they
>> wouldn't implement the alt+super+s shortcut to turn on Orca in
>> GNOME. Defaults you say, maybe. But still, if they didn't care, why
>> would they do so much work to get their installer working with Orca?
>> I don't think all that work was an accident.
>>
>> With regard to yet another list, it's not necessary at all. We do
>> still have this list, and we can just put our names into our
>> messages. Kyle here  In any case, if we don't want that, the FSF
>> does have an accessibility list as well.
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility
>> No sense making yet another Linux/free software accessibility list.
>> Either use this one, that one or both. In any case, we can't be
>> blaming Red Hat for the current state of this list. They did what
>> they could do as quickly as they could do it. Instead, if there is
>> any blame to throw around, we should be blaming the spammers that
>> got us here.
>> ~Kyle
>>
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Re: list identification:

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi blinux-list members,

blinux-list is no longer sending 'From' addresses because of a spammer 
abusing these addresses.
Therefore Kelly's proposal for adding a signature/alias at the end of a 
posting is reasonable.


In addition, your signature is adding power to your posting.

Enjoy!
Hans
(maintainer blinux-list)

On 23.04.2017 13:27, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

Hi Kelly,

I am surprised that people actually don't sign there name anyway.

It is polite to do so and then we will know.

The previous thread seemed to be CJ but could be wrong.

We tend to learn people's writing styles.

Good suggestions.

Cheers

Rob Whyte



On 23/04/17 21:25, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

I would like to make a suggestion:
As the list moderator has redacted senders, perhaps it would be
helpful if people were to put there name at the beginning or the end
of there posts.
I can usually tell who is posting because I am practiced at reading
headers, but it is time consuming and not everyone will wish to do that.
I hope this suggestion is helpful.
-- Kelly Prescott


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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Regardless of the method used, I'm not sure boot messages are all that
important to the average user or even the average power user. The
functionality might be useful to some sysadmins, but I'm not convinced
the convenience kernel integration provides to these few is worth the
extra hassle involved in maintaining these and keeping software
upgrades easy for those who hear kernel and think popcorn.

Granted, I'm a bit turned off by Fenrir's dependance on python, and
most of the technical issues here are way above my weight class, but
at the moment, it's sounding like userland has more net pros than
kernel integration when it comes to terminal screen reading.

-- 
Sincerely,

Jeffery Wright
President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa.
Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle.

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I don't think it's fair to say that Windows users just went right along 
with giving up the start menu. There was a major out cry and MS 
reintroduced the start menu.


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

On 24/04/17 19:06, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

Windows users have had to learn and relearn basic functionality of their
own precious OS for years now, as Microsoft itself periodically changes
the way things work just for the sake of making a change. I see nothing
new here, except that the benefits of Linux far outweigh any changes in
key combinations in the screen reader. Just think of the poor Windows
user who got an upgrade and lost the whole start menu. Is this not a
major change? But they went right along with it, because they had no
other choice. Now imagine instead having the ability to use more logical
mnemonics to operate your screen reader, everything from telling the
time to listing links in a far more logical and intuitive set of
keybindings. Now imagine if you don't like the keybindings, being given
the opportunity to change every single one until it suits your personal
tastes. Then tell me that Orca somehow does things in a less logical way
than NVDA , or heaven forbid, Jaws, the cream of the crap when it comes
to any screen reader, and that orca somehow must change everything it
does and the way it does it simply to comply with some whim that the
likes of Freedom Scientific arbitrarily forced upon its users, and
everyone else in the wonderful world of Windows decided they just had to
follow like good little sheep.
~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

It's not that I don't care about new users coming to Linux from Windows. 
It's more that I care about the new computer user who's starting with 
Linux. Why shouldn't they have the most intuitive set of key bindings 
possible? What about those that have been using Orca all along? How 
about those who are Windows users but want a more intuitive set of key 
bindings? Should screen reader developers be held back from coming up 
with new and innovative ways of doing things because they have to stick 
to an old set of key bindings that weren't even developed for their 
platform or screen reader?


I do care about those users coming from Windows, but I'm not sure that 
should be the driving motivation for Orca's key bindings and the 
underlying features needed to support them.


I also don't think a screen reader key mapping is the biggest issue 
keeping people from moving from Linux to Windows. There are a lot more 
moving parts to this transition then just a screen reader and it's key 
mappings.


For my part, I used Windows and JAWS almost exclusively from 1997 to 
2011. I still use it on my job today. I have no problem learning a new 
set of key bindings especially if I feel it's a better and more 
intuitive set of bindings.


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
On 24/04/17 12:47, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

Okay, lets just make this perfectly clear. You don't care that a new
user trying to switch from Windows to linux would be confused by having
to learn all new shortcut keys, right? You are saying that in your
opinion insert+t just makes so much more sense than F12 that it is more
important than whether new users are confused by that shortcut key --
not to mention all the others. They can just tough it out, right? Is
that fair to say?

PS: Technically, I am not arguing that F12 should be the standard. I am
arguing that there should be a standard and whether it's insert+t or F12
isn't really to the point. To be fair, I think it would be next to
impossible to get Freedom Scientific to change to insert+t and therefore
it would be next to impossible to get nvda to change.

-- John Heim


On 04/24/2017 10:29 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

No. F12 does not mean time in any language. F12 may be a Jaws thing,
and it may even be an NVDA thing, but it's far from a standard. Last I
checked, time wasn't spelled with an f anything. Therefore, f12
telling me the time is stupid and illogical at best. I want my t damn
it. T for time, t for tell, t for anything you like, but don't make me
learn a completely stupid and illogical key combination simply because
some proprietary power decided long ago that t for time was somehow
insufficient. If you want f12 or even the page down key to tell you
the time, by all means, please do configure Orca that way, for
yourself. Those of us who have used Orca, and even those of us who
came to Orca from somewhere else, fully appreciate the benefits of
Orca's mnemonic keybindings over the stupid and illogical ones we had
to learn in other screen readers just to get them to do basic things.
~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Windows users have had to learn and relearn basic functionality of their 
own precious OS for years now, as Microsoft itself periodically changes 
the way things work just for the sake of making a change. I see nothing 
new here, except that the benefits of Linux far outweigh any changes in 
key combinations in the screen reader. Just think of the poor Windows 
user who got an upgrade and lost the whole start menu. Is this not a 
major change? But they went right along with it, because they had no 
other choice. Now imagine instead having the ability to use more logical 
mnemonics to operate your screen reader, everything from telling the 
time to listing links in a far more logical and intuitive set of 
keybindings. Now imagine if you don't like the keybindings, being given 
the opportunity to change every single one until it suits your personal 
tastes. Then tell me that Orca somehow does things in a less logical way 
than NVDA , or heaven forbid, Jaws, the cream of the crap when it comes 
to any screen reader, and that orca somehow must change everything it 
does and the way it does it simply to comply with some whim that the 
likes of Freedom Scientific arbitrarily forced upon its users, and 
everyone else in the wonderful world of Windows decided they just had to 
follow like good little sheep.

~Kyle

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Re: list identification:

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Actually, in this age of internetdom, one can not truly be sure the 
name provided is correct.

access to the  address at least gave you some sort of firm direction.
I did not share, but when I  tried a little experiment, Amy K, the name 
associated with the spam suddenly developed a gmail address.  From the 
shift  I felt it reasonable that the person behind the effort was actually 
on the list, likely having created this electronic persona for spamming, 
but might not go away if  we all simply joined again.
Still, I would rather dump and filter one source of spam then have such 
trouble following the flow on this list.

Speaking for myself of course,
Karen


On Mon, 24 Apr 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


Hello, Hans and list! I'm Lars Bjørndal.

you wrote:


blinux-list is no longer sending 'From' addresses because of a spammer
abusing these addresses.


This new behaviour gets the list reading cumbersome and
inefficient, unfortunately. Previously it was possible to notice the
sender before opening the email, and, based on the sender and subject,
decide whether to open and read the message or not.


Therefore Kelly's proposal for adding a signature/alias at the end of a
posting is reasonable.


Obvisously. But, I'd like to ask you, as you are the maintainer, if
you can investigate and find which member on the list sends the spam
messages that was the reason for changing the From header, and switch
back to prevous behaviour?

Thank you and regards, Lars


On 23.04.2017 13:27, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

Hi Kelly,

I am surprised that people actually don't sign there name anyway.

It is polite to do so and then we will know.

The previous thread seemed to be CJ but could be wrong.

We tend to learn people's writing styles.

Good suggestions.

Cheers

Rob Whyte



On 23/04/17 21:25, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

I would like to make a suggestion:
As the list moderator has redacted senders, perhaps it would be
helpful if people were to put there name at the beginning or the end
of there posts.
I can usually tell who is posting because I am practiced at reading
headers, but it is time consuming and not everyone will wish to do that.
I hope this suggestion is helpful.
-- Kelly Prescott


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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

F12 is completely arbitrary and has no meaning outside of stupid Jaws. 
And to answer the question of people who speak different languages using 
different mnemonics, this is completely fair, but should be addressed by 
maybe having different default mnemonics for different languages, not by 
picking something completely arbitrary and illogical simply because 
someone else on an entirely different OS and screen reader has chosen to 
go down an illogical and counterintuitive path. Again, if you want to 
use an arbitrary illogical key combination to tell you the time, by all 
means do it, as there is nothing stopping you from making 
orca+control+alt+shift+escape do it if that's your thing. All I'm saying 
is to leave the logical mnemonic as the default, because most of us who 
use Orca regularly prefer it that way, as it's easier to remember and 
makes a lot more sense, and can be easily changed if we ever desire to 
do so.

~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I don't think nerds or blind nerds are unique in this sense at all. In 
fact, since the blind suffer so much from prejudice, I'm always 
surprised by how prejudiced the blind themselves can be about the blind, 
although I shouldn't be, since I think that's just human nature. Anyone 
who thinks the blind are somehow worse then the general population in 
this sense don't follow the political parties in the US, read reviews on 
Amazon or follow comments on Facebook or the news sites.


Finally just because one screen reader uses F12 to tell the time doesn't 
make it a standard.


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

On 24/04/17 09:32, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Again, a little give can
sometimes be a very good thing. Honestly, nerds all seem to have this
thing where they think their way is the best way. This is how distro
religious wars start. But of all the community of nerds I am associated
with, blind nerds are the worst. There is absolutely no compromise, no
willingness to work together, nothing! In fact, it's ubiquitous in the
blind community. We even have 2 different advocacy groups, the NFB and
the ACB.  And the health of the blind community as a whole can just go
to heck for all anyone cares. Drives me crazy. The reason why F12 should
give you the time is that that the standard. Because people expect F12
to give them the time. It's that simple.





On 04/24/2017 01:11 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

Why do I want insert+f12 to tell me the time when insert+t, (t for
time), can do that for me just fine and more intuitively? How is f12
better than t, which stands for time? No, that's simply not a logical
keybinding, and I don't want it in Orca. BTDubs, holding in the insert
Orca key and double tapping t for time does tell me the date. So again
I ask what the hell does f12 mean and why is it needed to do the same
thing that t already does?
~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

The serial terminal is indeed built into the kernel, but the difference 
is that it isn't stuck in staging with no hope of ever getting out into 
the main tree. In fact, the serial terminal has been a part of the base 
kernel for many many years. And what in the world is wrong with using a 
cable to connect to something inexpensive instead of purchasing an 
obsolete piece of hardware that costs way more than it's worth, 
especially if it's possible to purchase a fully functional computer for 
a much lower price?


OK, Speakup is now once again in active development, and there have been 
a ton of messages to the Speakup list during the month of April of this 
year, and a few more in March as I recall. But my point is that if Red 
Hat's work toward the accessibility of its installer is "too little too 
late" as one person mentioned here, about 7 patches under review in 
Speakup over the course of 30 to 45 days is also too little too late, by 
far, as Speakup has had far longer to get it right and to position 
itself as the only screen reader to ever make it into any mainline 
kernel on any operating system, and it has thus far failed miserably. 
Sorry, I'll just stick with my $15 uart to USB cable and my $15 single 
board computer, as I can't be bothered to try to find a working hardware 
speech synthesizer and the correct port to plug it into while I wait for 
Speakup to get proper USB support and to be available on any kernel no 
matter who is distributing it.

~Kyle

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Dan Rossi here.

WOW, what a thread.  The vehemence surrounding a silly little thing like 
F-12 verses insert-t is amazing.  In JAWS, insert-t is for the title of 
the window I am in.  Title, T.  There are only 26 letters in the alphabet 
and a few modifier keys, so some things are going to get relegated to odd 
key mappings.  Is insert-f12 a better keymap for Title?


Luckily, JAWS does make changing key mappings pretty customizable.  So, If 
I want insert-t to be time, I think I can do that.


I'm still firmly grounded in Windows, but have interest in Linux.  I still 
use Pine on a unix box for my email, but would never give up FireFox on 
Windows for browsing in text mode.


Sorry, to come out of the blue, but the key mapping thing just seemed to 
be so silly with as much anger as it seemed to promote.



--
Blue skies.
Dan Rossi
E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu
Tel:(412) 422-5423

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Re: I need to get speakup to wirk. Suggestions?

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi,
Do you use espeakup or speechd-up, or some hardware synthesizer?
If you use espeakup or speechd-up, kill all instances and start it from the 
graphical terminal with sudo.
Then, switch to some text console and log in - you probably won't have speech 
on the login prompt.

-- 
Best wishes,
Zahari

  Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 01:53:38PM -0500

> I'm using Orca on Ubuntu MATE. I want to use several terminal
> applications because I'm unsatisfied with the desktop apps I currently
> use.
> Orca's terminal support sucks.
> I've installed speakup, but it never runs when I switch to terminal.
> Any suggestions for fixes I might try? Thanks.
> 
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Re: I need to get speakup to wirk. Suggestions?

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I'm trying to use speakup with espeakup.
Espeakup says: "Unable to open the soft synth device: no such file or
directory".
I thought I'd installed speakup, but typing it gives "command not found".
I just downloaded a speakup tarball (that took some digging). Running
the makefile produces two errors that I don't understand.

What is speachd-up? Do I need it in addition to speakup and espeakup?

On 7/31/17, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> Do you use espeakup or speechd-up, or some hardware synthesizer?
> If you use espeakup or speechd-up, kill all instances and start it from the
> graphical terminal with sudo.
> Then, switch to some text console and log in - you probably won't have
> speech on the login prompt.
>
> --
> Best wishes,
> Zahari
>
>   Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 01:53:38PM -0500
>
>> I'm using Orca on Ubuntu MATE. I want to use several terminal
>> applications because I'm unsatisfied with the desktop apps I currently
>> use.
>> Orca's terminal support sucks.
>> I've installed speakup, but it never runs when I switch to terminal.
>> Any suggestions for fixes I might try? Thanks.
>>
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I need to get speakup to wirk. Suggestions?

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I'm using Orca on Ubuntu MATE. I want to use several terminal
applications because I'm unsatisfied with the desktop apps I currently
use.
Orca's terminal support sucks.
I've installed speakup, but it never runs when I switch to terminal.
Any suggestions for fixes I might try? Thanks.

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Plugin for Orca

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi! I am looking for problem statements to make Orca a better screen reader
on Linux. Development is usually a better choice, when it comes to Linux,
but the developer community mainly lacks accessibilities here.
I will be glad to receive feedbacks from you all about Orca and problems
you face which you think needs to work upon and improved. Thanks.

Regards,
Hritik Gupta
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Re: Latest brailleblaster and/or braille printer/embosser drivers?

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Linux for blind general discussion, on mar. 01 août 2017 08:06:54 +0200, wrote:
> Can braille printing be done using cups?

Simply by setting it as a printer, using the generic braille driver (or
the Index braille driver when it is an Index embosser), and setting
parameters. You can then just lp text files.
Also see /usr/share/doc/cups-filters/README*, there is a "braille
embossing section" in there.

Samuel

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Re: I need to get speakup to wirk. Suggestions?

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi,
You still get the same error after you did what - reinstalling the kernel?
To check the state of Secure Boot, try:
sudo mokutil --sb-state

I don't have UEFI here, so I don't know if it'll ask you for a password just 
for checking the state, but I guess not.

P. S. Although mokutil doesn't have a --help option, it has a manual page:
man mokutil


-- 
Best wishes,
Zahari

  Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 02:57:36PM -0500

> I still get the same "key not available" error. Does that mean for
> certain that I'm still stuck with that acursed secure boot? The
> sighted person who came over last said he turned it off. But then he's
> the one who unintentionally deleted Windows...
> 
> Has anyone here had luck turning off secure boot with mokutil?
> sudo mokutil --disable-validation
> It asks you to create a password that you enter on reboot. I don't
> know if I'll be able to hear the password prompt.
> 
> On 8/1/17, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> > If you run ubuntu, speakup should already be in your kernel.
> > At your terminal in the GUI, do sudo su
> > then modprobe speakup_soft start=1
> > You should just get back to a prompt.
> > Then from your console, run espeakup
> > If it works, you can automate all of this.
> > Also make sure you have sound in the console. with some versions of
> > Ubuntu, you need to add the user to group audio.
> > HTH, Willem
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 31 Jul 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> >
> >> I'm using Orca on Ubuntu MATE. I want to use several terminal
> >> applications because I'm unsatisfied with the desktop apps I currently
> >> use.
> >> Orca's terminal support sucks.
> >> I've installed speakup, but it never runs when I switch to terminal.
> >> Any suggestions for fixes I might try? Thanks.
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> >
> > This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail
> > legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard.
> > The full disclaimer details can be found at
> > http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html.
> >
> > Please consider the environment before printing this email.
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Re: bats rescue disk

[Linux for blind general discussion]

This is Tony Baechler. Please write off list about the BATS live / rescue 
CD. I know wireless networking is a problem and I really need help fixing 
it. I don't have wireless here. I installed all of the non-free firmware I 
knew about but I guess I missed something. I had surgery and will shortly be 
starting the evaluation for a kidney transplant (stage 4 kidney failure) so 
I have very little time, but I'm interested in feedback. I'm in the process 
of turning it over to someone else, but I still have the chroot here. Please 
email bats at batsupport dot com. Thanks!


Also, due to the above lack of time, I'm leaving the blinux list. If you 
need me, write to the above address. If you want to work on it, take it over 
or test it, please let me know.


On 6/19/2017 8:26 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

The version I downloaded was up at the end of May 2017.
I found most of it worked well except for networking.
I got link not ready and after booting was not able to set up networking and 
go onto the internet.
Why this surprised me is because the wifi adapter I use is a realtech 8127b 
wireless adapter and linux isn't supposed to have any problems with that 
hardware.
The wifi networks here were found using wicd-cli and also using wicd-curses 
but I couldn't configure them.
This disk has wcalc on it along with nethack so is a worthy rescue disk in 
those respects.




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--
James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for 
another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous   man 
availeth much in its working. (ASV)


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Re: Request for coppy

[Linux for blind general discussion]

http://vinuxproject.org/downloads

maybe.
I'm all ubuntu, so haven't used this.

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Re: Request for coppy

[Linux for blind general discussion]

google for vinux iso


On Tue, 15 Aug 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


Hi all,
My 1st mail in this group.
Accidantly, i have lost my iso blinux package, so i would like to
share the link from where i can get that copy again. I have tried to
get it from google search, but i am denyed to access that page.

Hope for your reply.

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No speech with orca

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I resterated the machine and now I get no speech with orca. Emacspeak
still talks. In orca preferences the "speech system" and "speech
synthesizer choices no longer appear.

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Re: Overwriting old/corrupted files in a backup

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi,

I didn't know about 'cp -Rn'. I made friends with rsync
years ago, and use it for local copies as well as to/from
remote hosts over the network. 

It has flags for most of the behaviors you want.
To not clobber existing files during the copy you have:
--backup, --backup-dir and --suffix options.

To test before actually copying: --dry-run

I generally use -a and -v options (retain attributes, and
give verbose output).

For comparing to directory trees, there must be something
better available, however, I can offer a short perl script
(attached) takes two directory trees and lists differences
in size, modify date, owner, group, permission, etc. between
files; files only in source, or only in target. Not great
coding style (you shouldn't use $a and $b as variable names
because they have special meaning during sort).  

Hope this helps,

Joel

someone wrote:
> Okay, so using the cp command with the -Rn switch is convenient for
> say copying my Music folder from my home directory to an external hard
> drive or the SD card for my portable Media player when the destination
> already has an older copy without needing to copy everything already
> present in the old copy, manually determining what's been added and
> copying manually, or dealing with a bunch of prompts. It also allows
> an aborted copy to more or less be resumed from where it left off.
> 
> This method is simple enough to not require scripting or complex
> command syntax, but it does have a few downsides:
> 1. It won't overwrite corrupted files left by an interrupted copy, and
> such files are too rare for manual searching.
> 2. Files that have been altered don't get copied. unless they've
> changed filename. Not a big issue for copying my Music folder since
> those files are seldom altered, but copying say, my writing folder can
> lead to the backup media containing only older drafts of some
> documents.
> 3. It tells me nothing of files from an older copy that have been
> deletd/renamed since the last copy. jdupes can find old files on the
> destination media if the new file is just a rename, but it can't help
> with files that have been altered as well as renamed.
> 
> I suppose what I'm looking for is a command line utility or script
> that executes the following pseudo code:
> Given directories source and destination:
> for every file found in both source and destination:
> if file.source != file.destination
> prompt user whether to overwrite one version of the file with the
> other or to add the files to a list for later examination.
> For every file only in source:
> search for match in destination.
> If match found prompt user towhich to rename to match.
> If not match found, copy to destination.
> For every file only in destination:
> search for match in source.
> If match is found, prompt user to which file should be renamed.
> If no match is found, prompt user whether to copy of delete.
> 
> If anyone knows of command line utilities to help with this task, it
> would be greatly appreciated.
> 
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-- 
Joel Roth
  

#!/usr/bin/env perl 
my ($a, $b) = @ARGV;
my (%a, %b); # hashes to hold stat data

my %stat_field =( 0 => 'dev',
  1 => 'ino',
  2 => 'mode',
  3 => 'nlink',
  4 => 'uid',
  5 => 'gid',
  6 => 'rdev',
  7 => 'size',
  8 => 'atime',
  9 => 'mtime',
  10 => 'ctime',
  11 => 'blksize',
  12 => 'blks');
my @target_fields = (2, 4, 5, 7, 9);
my %compared = ();

use File::Find;
find (\_a, $a );
sub want_a { $a{$File::Find::name} = [ stat $File::Find::name ]; }

find (\_b, $b);
sub want_b { $b{$File::Find::name} = [ stat $File::Find::name ]; }

#foreach my $k (keys %a) {print join (" ", $k, @{$a{$k}}, "\n" ); }  exit;
#foreach my $k (keys %b) {print join (" ", $k, @{$b{$k}}, "\n" ); }  exit;
# print join "\n", keys %b; exit;
foreach my $k (keys %a) {
# print $k, "\n"; next;
my $l = $k;
$l =~ s/^$a/$b/;
# print "$k $l\n";

$b{$l} or print ("$k not in target\n"), next;
my @diffs = ();
foreach my $f (@target_fields) {  
print(join " ", "$k differs in $stat_field{$f}:", $a{$k}->[$f], 
$b{$l}->[$f] ,"\n")
if ! $b{$l}->[$f] == $a{$k}->[$f];
}
$compared{$l}++;
}
foreach my $l (keys %b) {
next if $compared{$l};
print "$l not in source\n";
}
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Re: Request for coppy

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Here, save the script below to your machine then run it.  If you have 
wget installed you'll get your copy back on your machine.  To check the 
download progress, you can use wc -l wget-log.  If you read a number 
that keeps growing each time you key in that wc -l wget-log command it 
means your iso is still downloading.  When that number stops growing you 
want to do the command grep -in saved wget-log.  If grep returns a line 
with saved on it then the iso download is finished.  Once finished you 
can safely rm wget-log.


cut here.
#!/usr/bin/env bash
# file: getvinux.sh - get latest vinux version 
wget --background --continue --trust-server-names --max-redirect=1 https://sourceforge.net/projects/vinuxproject/files/latest/download?source=files


cut here.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017, Linux for blind general 
discussion wrote:



Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:15:36
From: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com>
To: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: Request for coppy

google for vinux iso


On Tue, 15 Aug 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


Hi all,
My 1st mail in this group.
Accidantly, i have lost my iso blinux package, so i would like to
share the link from where i can get that copy again. I have tried to
get it from google search, but i am denyed to access that page.

Hope for your reply.

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Re: Overwriting old/corrupted files in a backup

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I agree. rsync is fast and extremely powerful.


If in the future you need something really sophisticated, like large 
companies use, try storeBackup.



Fernando



On 08/16/2017 09:57 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

Use rsync instead. You'll never look back.

Janina

Linux for blind general discussion writes:

Okay, so using the cp command with the -Rn switch is convenient for
say copying my Music folder from my home directory to an external hard
drive or the SD card for my portable Media player when the destination
already has an older copy without needing to copy everything already
present in the old copy, manually determining what's been added and
copying manually, or dealing with a bunch of prompts. It also allows
an aborted copy to more or less be resumed from where it left off.

This method is simple enough to not require scripting or complex
command syntax, but it does have a few downsides:
1. It won't overwrite corrupted files left by an interrupted copy, and
such files are too rare for manual searching.
2. Files that have been altered don't get copied. unless they've
changed filename. Not a big issue for copying my Music folder since
those files are seldom altered, but copying say, my writing folder can
lead to the backup media containing only older drafts of some
documents.
3. It tells me nothing of files from an older copy that have been
deletd/renamed since the last copy. jdupes can find old files on the
destination media if the new file is just a rename, but it can't help
with files that have been altered as well as renamed.

I suppose what I'm looking for is a command line utility or script
that executes the following pseudo code:
Given directories source and destination:
for every file found in both source and destination:
if file.source != file.destination
prompt user whether to overwrite one version of the file with the
other or to add the files to a list for later examination.
For every file only in source:
search for match in destination.
If match found prompt user towhich to rename to match.
If not match found, copy to destination.
For every file only in destination:
search for match in source.
If match is found, prompt user to which file should be renamed.
If no match is found, prompt user whether to copy of delete.

If anyone knows of command line utilities to help with this task, it
would be greatly appreciated.

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festival screen reader install

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I downloaded the voices pack for festival and put it in 
/usr/share/festival/english/.  The english part of that may have needed 
capitalization I'm not sure.  Beyond that, I don't know yet how to select 
a default voice from those available and configure festival so that a 
voice comes up talking when I run festival --server.  I wouldn't have 
asked about any of this here if I found this information using google, I 
tried that first and came up with zip.




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Re: linux firefox and webvisum

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Okay, this is what I found out.  First understand I'm using firefox 54.x 
and I did find a webvisum menu in the tools menu.  However firefox made 
the webvisum menu inaccessible.


Many of us need google to write a competitor to webvisum that works on 
chrome.  I could justify removing firefox and thunderbird from my 
systems were that to happen.  neomutt could probably replace thunderbird 
and probably at a considerable space savings on disk too.


On Sat, 12 Aug 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2017 13:04:50
From: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com>
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: linux firefox and webvisum

Hi, my signature is at the bottom of the message, but, to save yall
the trouble, I'm Jackie. Part of the problem may be that the old
version of W V is not signed. U may have to go into about:config &
enable unsigned extensions. Alternatively, I believe a guy named James
Shoals has a new, signed version of W V. I'm not sure if that works on
Linux or is only for windows.

HTH, & let us know if u resolved it, won't u?

On 8/12/17, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:

I got webvisum installed on a current version of linux (ubuntu).  When I
did the install, I did not log onto webvisum.  After firefox restart it's
like it doesn't appear to be installed in firefox now.  If this is the
case what key combination or key can I use to wake it up so I can log into
it locally?



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Re: Spd.conf ruined my speech. Please help.

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I'm on Ubuntu. I originally sped up my speech by modifying the file
/etc/speech-dispatcher/modules/espeak.conf.
I suspect that spd-conf created another espeak.conf file somewhere and
that one is now the default. But it also set pulseaudio as the
default, so I haven't ruled that out as the problem.

On 8/13/17, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> Now this is interesting.  I did rm -fr ./config/pulse and then rebooted
> the system to clear memory and played a webm file I have on vlc.
> Afterwards no change to speech happened at all.  So it is possible what
> configure-pulse is writing is causing problems.  This is a current
> version of archlinux specifically talking arch with all software updated
> on an x86_64 machine where all of this happened.
>
> On Sun, 13 Aug 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>
>> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2017 01:14:01
>> From: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com>
>> To: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com>
>> Subject: Re: Spd.conf ruined my speech. Please help.
>>
>> I predict this will be found not to be a fenrir problem at all but a
>> pulseaudio problem.  The reason for that is I have some pulseaudio support
>>
>> for vlc installed on my system and had removed speech-dispatcher-git and
>> fenrir-git from my system since speech was being slowed down here too.
>> Whenever I use vlc to play an mp4 or webm file on this computer,
>> afterwards
>> the speech slows down and sounds like darth vader until I reboot the
>> system.
>> I could wipe out pulseaudio configuration and try playing another mp4 file
>> to
>> see if the same degradation happens too and probably will in a few minutes
>>
>> since now this has got me curious.  I expect an outside possibility exists
>>
>> fenrir wrote some wrong stuff with pulseaudio-config and this should be a
>> way
>> to find that out.
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>>
>>> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2017 19:37:06
>>> From: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com>
>>> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> Subject: Re: Spd.conf ruined my speech. Please help.
>>>
>>> maybe send me a private message to
>>> ch...@linux-a11y.org
>>> i lets fix this :).
>>> Am 12.08.2017 um 20:37 schrieb Linux for blind general discussion:
>>>> Now I have British-sounding speech as well as slow speech with pitch
>>>> changes and punctuations spoken that I don't want. I really need to
>>>> use the file I was using before.
>>>> Again, help is necessary and greatly appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> On 8/12/17, Amanda Lacy <lacy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I ran it while trying to make fenrir work. Now everything is VERY slow
>>>>> and I get weird pitch changes with caiptal letters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Before, I was able to adjust the max rate in the
>>>>> /etc/speech-dispatcher/modules/espeak.conf file. That file is still
>>>>> there, but the rate settings no longer seem to apply. I can't function
>>>>> with speech this slow. Please help.
>>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
>
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Re: Fenrir error file

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I've created a user configuration with spd-conf and set sound as
pulse. All the tests pass. Fenrir still makes the opening sound but
doesn't talk.
I tried creating a system configuration with spd-conf but it causes
spd-conf to crash. Something else also crashes. The Ubuntu GUI asks me
to send an error report but doesn't tell me what crashed.

On 8/12/17, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> ah cool so the sound setup is correct.
> you just need to configure speech-dispatcher.
> run spd-conf as root and tell it to use pulse.
> sorry i misspelled it. my mail address is:
> ch...@linux-a11y.org
> cheers chrys
> Am 12.08.2017 um 22:56 schrieb Linux for blind general discussion:
>> I get sound but no speech. I'm using gstreamer. BTW, your email
>> address where you receive these log files bounced:
>>
>> ** Address not found **
>> Your message wasn't delivered to ch...@linux-a11y.de because the
>> domain linux-a11y.de couldn't be found. Check for typos or unnecessary
>> spaces and try again.
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: Fenrir Wiki updated

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I'm using Orca.

> you can always revert all kind of missconfiguration by delete the folder in 
> home
> ".config/speech-dispatcher/" in /root (for root)

Which folder do I delete?

> and in /home/user/ for your user.

/home/user/ doesn't exist. Which folder do I remove here?

On 8/12/17, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> i wonder what kind of screen reader are you using currently?
> just to know why are you affect this. orca should not be affected.
>
> what is needed to use fenrir is that speech-dispatcher is streaming to
> pulse insteed of alsa. that why spd-conf for root is needed.
> you can always revert all kind of missconfiguration by delete the folder
> in home ".config/speech-dispatcher/" in /root (for root) and in
> /home/user/ for your user.
>
> what screenreader are you using currently? orca should not affect by
> changes here since it is overwriting stuff by its own settings (like
> fenrir does).
> cheers chrys
>
> Am 12.08.2017 um 19:32 schrieb Linux for blind general discussion:
>> Running spd-conf messed up my speech.
>> I listen to speech very fast. It slowed it down! I find a system with
>> slow speech to be barely useable.
>>
>> I had sped it up by modifying the max speed setting in
>> /etc/speech-dispatcher/moldules/espeak.conf
>>
>> That modified file is still there, but speech is still slow. Please
>> help! My thoughts are wandering between syllables.
>>
>> On 8/11/17, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Howdy,
>>>
>>> i updated the fenrir user wiki to hopfully be more useful for
>>> troubleshooting. i hope this helps
>>>
>>> https://wiki.linux-a11y.org/doku.php?id=fenrir_user_manual#troubleshooting
>>> corrections are always welcome since i have a really bad english lol but
>>> i try to do my best.
>>>
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Re: Fenrir errors

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I was thinking, wouldn't a live phone conference be a faster way for many of us 
to get these issues resolved? I would suggest a phone bridge instead of 
something like Skype, as many of us would need our sound cards for speech. 
Thanks in advance

Chime

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Re: Fenrir errors

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Howdy,

i often stay in mumble on
mumble.linux-a11y.org
nickname chrys
also storm is often available there (he has a lot of experience since he 
is my tester and is using fenrir for fulltime).


i also stay on irc on:
irc.netwirc.tk
rooms
#a11y
#devel

https://linux-a11y.org/index.php?page=join-us

I m always want to help :) thats why i create OCRdesktop fenrir and SOPS.
Am 11.08.2017 um 18:14 schrieb Linux for blind general discussion:
I was thinking, wouldn't a live phone conference be a faster way for 
many of us to get these issues resolved? I would suggest a phone 
bridge instead of something like Skype, as many of us would need our 
sound cards for speech. Thanks in advance

Chime

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Re: Fenrir errors

[Linux for blind general discussion]

by the way if you try again please pull git master again i did some 
massive changes :) for process handling.


Am 08.08.2017 um 01:30 schrieb Linux for blind general discussion:

I've attached the errors I get when I try to run Fenrir without installing it.
All dependencies are installed and I hear no sound or speech. Does
this file suggest why?


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re: firefox and webvisum

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Okay, when in firefox I typed control-f10 I get a menu and moving down I 
find webvisum menu so hit enter on that.  Then I find login and hit enter 
on that and nothing happens.




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Re: Orca speech still messed up

[Linux for blind general discussion]

howdy,

did you try to renew all configuration files for speech-dispatcher
# move global configuration for speech-dispatcher
sudo mv /etc/speech-dispatcher/ /etc/speech-dispatcher-old
# remove your user specific settings
sudo rm -r /home//.config/speech-dispatcher/
# remove any root specific settings
sudo rm -r /root/.config/speech-dispatcher/
and resinstall speech-dispatcher then?
cheers chrys
Am 14.08.2017 um 23:53 schrieb Linux for blind general discussion:

The only espeak.conf file now left on my system is my modified
version, the same file that allowed me to adjust the rate before.
Espeak is still slow and raises the pitch for capitalized words.

BTW, under Orca preferences I cannot select espeak as the synthesizer.
It only lets me select "default synthesizer".

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Orca speech still messed up

[Linux for blind general discussion]

The only espeak.conf file now left on my system is my modified
version, the same file that allowed me to adjust the rate before.
Espeak is still slow and raises the pitch for capitalized words.

BTW, under Orca preferences I cannot select espeak as the synthesizer.
It only lets me select "default synthesizer".

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Re: getting started with debian, suggestions anyone?

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Go into a terminal and type:
modprobe speakup.soft
Then type:
espeakup
and see if you get speech.
You could scrap the install and start over, but were I you and did that 
I'd get into debian main menu by typing (<) at a prompt that's the less 
than sign sift the comma and I would change priority to low by keying 
change priority's number then keying in the number on submenu for low. 
Then I would key in the number to preserve log files and choose mounted 
partition for that and then hit enter on default choice.  Then I'd 
continue with the installation.  The log files are of interest to the 
debian-boot email list and a problem you experienced may get discovered 
by them and corrected for your hardware that way.


On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 13:41:08
From: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com>
To: "blinux-list@redhat.com" <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Subject: getting started with debian, suggestions anyone?

   Hi all,

I'm looking to get started seriously in debian, although I appear to be
having several problems. First off, my initial hope was to be able to
work exclusivly in the commandline with espeakup, which I understand
should be installed by default when using the accessable installer from
the netinstall. However, after going through the installation, selecting
standard system utilities, ssh server and web server I don't appear to
have speech. I do, however have the console beap after logging in which
suggests to me that the installation was succesfull. I'm half tempted to
scrap this current instance and reinstall, but my question is do any of
you have any combinations from that main installation screen that you
would suggest using?

Thanks much for any help with this.

Cheers,


Daniel


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