Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Read Weaver via Callers]

Why do you only put this in the women’s room? Perhaps you live somewhere where 
it’s unusual for a woman to ask a man to dance, but you say your sign goes on 
to say to find a dancer you want to dance with. And while I don’t question that 
men are more likely to do things to make a female partner uncomfortable, the 
reverse isn’t unheard of. And even if that never happened, putting it in both 
restrooms would let the men know what to expect.

Read Weaver
Jamaica Plain, MA
http://lcfd.org

> On Dec 17, 2017, at 12:30 PM, Amy Wimmer via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Greetings All,
> 
> I really like JD's methods. When teaching I do an abbreviated version of 
> that, but I think I'll expand it to include a _kind_ refusal, and universal 
> participation during the lesson. 
> 
> My husband and I are dance organizers, and for several years have been 
> working hard to make the atmosphere of the dance welcoming and safe for all. 
> We have signs in the restrooms about behavior. The one in the women's states 
> that if one doesn't want to dance with someone, for any reason, it is best to 
> be quick about it, saying, "No, thank you," so the ask-er has time to find a 
> different partner. Skip the lengthy excuse, then find a partner you _want_ to 
> dance with. 
> 
> Also, at the end of a dance, I often encourage people to invite someone who's 
> sitting out to dance. Every once in a while I ask new folks to identify 
> themselves, then ask experienced dancers to dance with them.
> 
> -Amy

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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Bob Green via Callers]

You and me both Ron, we steal from the best.

Bob Green

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> This thread is great!
>
> I just wanted to throw out props to George Marshall who was teaching at
> the end of his beginner lessons: accepting and declining and moving on with
> dance requests - earlier than I can remember other callers doing it. I've
> stolen my schtick directly from him.
>
> Ron Blechner
>
> On Dec 18, 2017 12:09 PM, "Rich Sbardella via Callers" <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Mary has made some very valid points.  It would be good to emphasize that
>> this is a dance "community", and that all people should be respectful of
>> others.  Many dancers take a "no" as a personal rejection and perhaps even
>> as disrespectful.  This tends to hurt the community as a whole and often
>> leads to cliques.  My thought is that dancers should have a reason for
>> saying no, but that reason need not be vocalized.
>>
>> As an older dancer, most of the rejections I experience are from much
>> younger ladies that do not know me yet.  I tend to want to help newer
>> dancers with their skills, and have made many new dance friends this way.
>> I handle most rejections by remembering that many other dances seek me out
>> as a partner.
>>
>> To summarize, two people are involved in a dance request, and the
>> response should keep that in mind.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Mary Collins via Callers <
>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> coming late also here, Dale, so stealing your "lesson" comments.  We
>>> usually don't directly address the refusal part of the equation as we are
>>> so short of dancers, it's usually exhaustion that sits us out! lol...saying
>>> that...we do encourage new dancers to ask anyone (esp. those that look like
>>> they know what they are doing) to dance.  Our regular dancers are always
>>> eager to bring them into the experience for which I am grateful.  The "old"
>>> rule used to apply and several years ago, we had a very upset dancer who
>>> left and never returned because someone turned him down and then danced
>>> with someone else.  This particular dancer it was found, had some mental
>>> health issues, along with size and ability issues as well and took the
>>> refusal very personally.
>>>
>>> In the CDSS callers' course we discussed this and it was mentioned that
>>> saying no, needs no explanation.  Now, as a large woman (who,it has been
>>> noted by another dancer as"...very light on your feet") I often get no's.
>>> I try to ignore this and not take it personally, however, it often comes to
>>> mind as I sit out more and more.  Age and size do matter, unfortunately.
>>> As we become more inclusive in our dance culture we tend to forget those of
>>> us who raised you and brought you into this wonderful world of dance and
>>> community.  So if there is a kind, gentle way to remind dancers to ask
>>> ANYone to dance, and to accept the invitation (if so desired) regardless of
>>> dancer appearance or possible experience then I am all for it.  Please note
>>> this happens to me more at festivals and dances where I am less known as
>>> organizer, dancer, caller.
>>>
>>> Ok way to get off on a tangent but I feel it is relevant.
>>>
>>> Mary Collins
>>>
>>> “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about
>>> learning to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 10:54 AM, Luke Donforth via Callers <
>>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
 At the dances I've seen/called in and around VT, we don't address this
 directly (with signs or such).

 I've heard of the practice of sitting after declining, but I don't
 think it's a common practice for most folks these days. I'd say it's mostly
 fallen by the wayside.

 The one time I've seen it come up at a dance was more than a decade ago
 when an older male dancer castigated a young female dancer for turning him
 down and then dancing with someone else instead of sitting out. Several
 folks told her afterwards that he was rude and impertinent and she hadn't
 been in the wrong. I wish we'd taken a stronger line with him directly too
 though. I don't know if she offered an excuse or just a no, thank you.

 I like CD*NY's etiquette list that Alexandra linked to (
 http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/), especially the bit
 that addresses this:

 *You are always free to say no when someone asks you to dance.  You
 don’t have to give a reason; you can just say “No, thank you.” If you ask
 someone to dance and they say “No,” take it gracefully and move on. If
 someone has declined to dance with you, the etiquette in our community is
 not to ask that person again that same night. If they would like to dance
 with you, they can come ask you—it’s their turn to do the asking.*

 Adding that you 

Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

This thread is great!

I just wanted to throw out props to George Marshall who was teaching at the
end of his beginner lessons: accepting and declining and moving on with
dance requests - earlier than I can remember other callers doing it. I've
stolen my schtick directly from him.

Ron Blechner

On Dec 18, 2017 12:09 PM, "Rich Sbardella via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Mary has made some very valid points.  It would be good to emphasize that
> this is a dance "community", and that all people should be respectful of
> others.  Many dancers take a "no" as a personal rejection and perhaps even
> as disrespectful.  This tends to hurt the community as a whole and often
> leads to cliques.  My thought is that dancers should have a reason for
> saying no, but that reason need not be vocalized.
>
> As an older dancer, most of the rejections I experience are from much
> younger ladies that do not know me yet.  I tend to want to help newer
> dancers with their skills, and have made many new dance friends this way.
> I handle most rejections by remembering that many other dances seek me out
> as a partner.
>
> To summarize, two people are involved in a dance request, and the response
> should keep that in mind.
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Mary Collins via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> coming late also here, Dale, so stealing your "lesson" comments.  We
>> usually don't directly address the refusal part of the equation as we are
>> so short of dancers, it's usually exhaustion that sits us out! lol...saying
>> that...we do encourage new dancers to ask anyone (esp. those that look like
>> they know what they are doing) to dance.  Our regular dancers are always
>> eager to bring them into the experience for which I am grateful.  The "old"
>> rule used to apply and several years ago, we had a very upset dancer who
>> left and never returned because someone turned him down and then danced
>> with someone else.  This particular dancer it was found, had some mental
>> health issues, along with size and ability issues as well and took the
>> refusal very personally.
>>
>> In the CDSS callers' course we discussed this and it was mentioned that
>> saying no, needs no explanation.  Now, as a large woman (who,it has been
>> noted by another dancer as"...very light on your feet") I often get no's.
>> I try to ignore this and not take it personally, however, it often comes to
>> mind as I sit out more and more.  Age and size do matter, unfortunately.
>> As we become more inclusive in our dance culture we tend to forget those of
>> us who raised you and brought you into this wonderful world of dance and
>> community.  So if there is a kind, gentle way to remind dancers to ask
>> ANYone to dance, and to accept the invitation (if so desired) regardless of
>> dancer appearance or possible experience then I am all for it.  Please note
>> this happens to me more at festivals and dances where I am less known as
>> organizer, dancer, caller.
>>
>> Ok way to get off on a tangent but I feel it is relevant.
>>
>> Mary Collins
>>
>> “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning
>> to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 10:54 AM, Luke Donforth via Callers <
>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> At the dances I've seen/called in and around VT, we don't address this
>>> directly (with signs or such).
>>>
>>> I've heard of the practice of sitting after declining, but I don't think
>>> it's a common practice for most folks these days. I'd say it's mostly
>>> fallen by the wayside.
>>>
>>> The one time I've seen it come up at a dance was more than a decade ago
>>> when an older male dancer castigated a young female dancer for turning him
>>> down and then dancing with someone else instead of sitting out. Several
>>> folks told her afterwards that he was rude and impertinent and she hadn't
>>> been in the wrong. I wish we'd taken a stronger line with him directly too
>>> though. I don't know if she offered an excuse or just a no, thank you.
>>>
>>> I like CD*NY's etiquette list that Alexandra linked to (
>>> http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/), especially the bit
>>> that addresses this:
>>>
>>> *You are always free to say no when someone asks you to dance.  You
>>> don’t have to give a reason; you can just say “No, thank you.” If you ask
>>> someone to dance and they say “No,” take it gracefully and move on. If
>>> someone has declined to dance with you, the etiquette in our community is
>>> not to ask that person again that same night. If they would like to dance
>>> with you, they can come ask you—it’s their turn to do the asking.*
>>>
>>> Adding that you shouldn't ask someone multiple times, but have put the
>>> ball in their court seems a polite nudge to folks on both sides
>>>
>>> Incorporating some of the other strong suggestions that have come up on
>>> this discussion, I might advocate our group putting up 

Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Rich Sbardella via Callers]

Mary has made some very valid points.  It would be good to emphasize that
this is a dance "community", and that all people should be respectful of
others.  Many dancers take a "no" as a personal rejection and perhaps even
as disrespectful.  This tends to hurt the community as a whole and often
leads to cliques.  My thought is that dancers should have a reason for
saying no, but that reason need not be vocalized.

As an older dancer, most of the rejections I experience are from much
younger ladies that do not know me yet.  I tend to want to help newer
dancers with their skills, and have made many new dance friends this way.
I handle most rejections by remembering that many other dances seek me out
as a partner.

To summarize, two people are involved in a dance request, and the response
should keep that in mind.

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Mary Collins via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> coming late also here, Dale, so stealing your "lesson" comments.  We
> usually don't directly address the refusal part of the equation as we are
> so short of dancers, it's usually exhaustion that sits us out! lol...saying
> that...we do encourage new dancers to ask anyone (esp. those that look like
> they know what they are doing) to dance.  Our regular dancers are always
> eager to bring them into the experience for which I am grateful.  The "old"
> rule used to apply and several years ago, we had a very upset dancer who
> left and never returned because someone turned him down and then danced
> with someone else.  This particular dancer it was found, had some mental
> health issues, along with size and ability issues as well and took the
> refusal very personally.
>
> In the CDSS callers' course we discussed this and it was mentioned that
> saying no, needs no explanation.  Now, as a large woman (who,it has been
> noted by another dancer as"...very light on your feet") I often get no's.
> I try to ignore this and not take it personally, however, it often comes to
> mind as I sit out more and more.  Age and size do matter, unfortunately.
> As we become more inclusive in our dance culture we tend to forget those of
> us who raised you and brought you into this wonderful world of dance and
> community.  So if there is a kind, gentle way to remind dancers to ask
> ANYone to dance, and to accept the invitation (if so desired) regardless of
> dancer appearance or possible experience then I am all for it.  Please note
> this happens to me more at festivals and dances where I am less known as
> organizer, dancer, caller.
>
> Ok way to get off on a tangent but I feel it is relevant.
>
> Mary Collins
>
> “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning
> to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 10:54 AM, Luke Donforth via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> At the dances I've seen/called in and around VT, we don't address this
>> directly (with signs or such).
>>
>> I've heard of the practice of sitting after declining, but I don't think
>> it's a common practice for most folks these days. I'd say it's mostly
>> fallen by the wayside.
>>
>> The one time I've seen it come up at a dance was more than a decade ago
>> when an older male dancer castigated a young female dancer for turning him
>> down and then dancing with someone else instead of sitting out. Several
>> folks told her afterwards that he was rude and impertinent and she hadn't
>> been in the wrong. I wish we'd taken a stronger line with him directly too
>> though. I don't know if she offered an excuse or just a no, thank you.
>>
>> I like CD*NY's etiquette list that Alexandra linked to (
>> http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/), especially the bit
>> that addresses this:
>>
>> *You are always free to say no when someone asks you to dance.  You don’t
>> have to give a reason; you can just say “No, thank you.” If you ask someone
>> to dance and they say “No,” take it gracefully and move on. If someone has
>> declined to dance with you, the etiquette in our community is not to ask
>> that person again that same night. If they would like to dance with you,
>> they can come ask you—it’s their turn to do the asking.*
>>
>> Adding that you shouldn't ask someone multiple times, but have put the
>> ball in their court seems a polite nudge to folks on both sides
>>
>> Incorporating some of the other strong suggestions that have come up on
>> this discussion, I might advocate our group putting up something like:
>> You are always free to say no when someone asks you to dance.  No reasons
>> are required; a short "No, thank you.” gives that person more time to find
>> a different partner. If you ask someone...
>>
>> Thanks for starting this discussion Kalia! It seems like one that could
>> have gone on the organizers shared-weight instead of callers; but this one
>> does seem to be most people's default.
>>
>> --
>> Luke Donforth
>> luke.donfo...@gmail.com 

Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Mary Collins via Callers]

coming late also here, Dale, so stealing your "lesson" comments.  We
usually don't directly address the refusal part of the equation as we are
so short of dancers, it's usually exhaustion that sits us out! lol...saying
that...we do encourage new dancers to ask anyone (esp. those that look like
they know what they are doing) to dance.  Our regular dancers are always
eager to bring them into the experience for which I am grateful.  The "old"
rule used to apply and several years ago, we had a very upset dancer who
left and never returned because someone turned him down and then danced
with someone else.  This particular dancer it was found, had some mental
health issues, along with size and ability issues as well and took the
refusal very personally.

In the CDSS callers' course we discussed this and it was mentioned that
saying no, needs no explanation.  Now, as a large woman (who,it has been
noted by another dancer as"...very light on your feet") I often get no's.
I try to ignore this and not take it personally, however, it often comes to
mind as I sit out more and more.  Age and size do matter, unfortunately.
As we become more inclusive in our dance culture we tend to forget those of
us who raised you and brought you into this wonderful world of dance and
community.  So if there is a kind, gentle way to remind dancers to ask
ANYone to dance, and to accept the invitation (if so desired) regardless of
dancer appearance or possible experience then I am all for it.  Please note
this happens to me more at festivals and dances where I am less known as
organizer, dancer, caller.

Ok way to get off on a tangent but I feel it is relevant.

Mary Collins

“Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning
to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 10:54 AM, Luke Donforth via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> At the dances I've seen/called in and around VT, we don't address this
> directly (with signs or such).
>
> I've heard of the practice of sitting after declining, but I don't think
> it's a common practice for most folks these days. I'd say it's mostly
> fallen by the wayside.
>
> The one time I've seen it come up at a dance was more than a decade ago
> when an older male dancer castigated a young female dancer for turning him
> down and then dancing with someone else instead of sitting out. Several
> folks told her afterwards that he was rude and impertinent and she hadn't
> been in the wrong. I wish we'd taken a stronger line with him directly too
> though. I don't know if she offered an excuse or just a no, thank you.
>
> I like CD*NY's etiquette list that Alexandra linked to (
> http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/), especially the bit
> that addresses this:
>
> *You are always free to say no when someone asks you to dance.  You don’t
> have to give a reason; you can just say “No, thank you.” If you ask someone
> to dance and they say “No,” take it gracefully and move on. If someone has
> declined to dance with you, the etiquette in our community is not to ask
> that person again that same night. If they would like to dance with you,
> they can come ask you—it’s their turn to do the asking.*
>
> Adding that you shouldn't ask someone multiple times, but have put the
> ball in their court seems a polite nudge to folks on both sides
>
> Incorporating some of the other strong suggestions that have come up on
> this discussion, I might advocate our group putting up something like:
> You are always free to say no when someone asks you to dance.  No reasons
> are required; a short "No, thank you.” gives that person more time to find
> a different partner. If you ask someone...
>
> Thanks for starting this discussion Kalia! It seems like one that could
> have gone on the organizers shared-weight instead of callers; but this one
> does seem to be most people's default.
>
> --
> Luke Donforth
> luke.donfo...@gmail.com 
>
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>
>
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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Luke Donforth via Callers]

At the dances I've seen/called in and around VT, we don't address this
directly (with signs or such).

I've heard of the practice of sitting after declining, but I don't think
it's a common practice for most folks these days. I'd say it's mostly
fallen by the wayside.

The one time I've seen it come up at a dance was more than a decade ago
when an older male dancer castigated a young female dancer for turning him
down and then dancing with someone else instead of sitting out. Several
folks told her afterwards that he was rude and impertinent and she hadn't
been in the wrong. I wish we'd taken a stronger line with him directly too
though. I don't know if she offered an excuse or just a no, thank you.

I like CD*NY's etiquette list that Alexandra linked to (
http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/), especially the bit that
addresses this:

*You are always free to say no when someone asks you to dance.  You don’t
have to give a reason; you can just say “No, thank you.” If you ask someone
to dance and they say “No,” take it gracefully and move on. If someone has
declined to dance with you, the etiquette in our community is not to ask
that person again that same night. If they would like to dance with you,
they can come ask you—it’s their turn to do the asking.*

Adding that you shouldn't ask someone multiple times, but have put the ball
in their court seems a polite nudge to folks on both sides

Incorporating some of the other strong suggestions that have come up on
this discussion, I might advocate our group putting up something like:
You are always free to say no when someone asks you to dance.  No reasons
are required; a short "No, thank you.” gives that person more time to find
a different partner. If you ask someone...

Thanks for starting this discussion Kalia! It seems like one that could
have gone on the organizers shared-weight instead of callers; but this one
does seem to be most people's default.

-- 
Luke Donforth
luke.donfo...@gmail.com 
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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Kalia Kliban via Callers]

On 12/17/2017 10:55 PM, Claire Takemori via Callers wrote:

Kalia,

At South Bay Contra ( SF Bay Area) we have a sign posted around the hall 
(edited from a sign that I got from Pasadena Contra that edited the sign 
from Lake City Contra).  It says:

When looking for your next dance partner, please know:

  *
Anyone can ask anyone.  Don’t wait to be asked.
  *
If someone asks you to dance, it’s fine to say no.
  *
You don’t have to sit out a dance because you declined an offer.
  *
If you want to dance, ask someone right after the last dance ends.
Sitting down means you are not going to dance.


We also ask that the caller reiterate this during the lesson and during 
the dance.


Claire Takemori


This is the first series I've heard from that addresses this specific 
issue in their social code.  Thank you.


Kalia
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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Claire Takemori via Callers]

Kalia,

At South Bay Contra ( SF Bay Area) we have a sign posted around the hall 
(edited from a sign that I got from Pasadena Contra that edited the sign from 
Lake City Contra).  It says: 
When looking for your next dance partner, please know: 
Anyone can ask anyone.  Don’t wait to be asked.
If someone asks you to dance, it’s fine to say no.  
You don’t have to sit out a dance because you declined an offer. 
If you want to dance, ask someone right after the last dance ends. Sitting down 
means you are not going to dance.

We also ask that the caller reiterate this during the lesson and during the 
dance.  

Claire Takemori 


On 12/16/17 11:39 AM, Kalia Kliban via Callers wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember 
> the rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer. 
> A very competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I 
> did (late 80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to 
> dance because he doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking 
> "If I don't dance with this guy then I have to sit one out.? Oh crap, 
> guess I'll have to dance with him."? For the record, he's a totally 
> solid and delightful dancer.
> 
> To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been 
> replaced, and what has it been replaced with?? In your dance 
> community, do you have a written statement of the etiquette around 
> this?? Our community's statement doesn't directly address this issue.
> 
> Kalia
> ___

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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Kalia Kliban via Callers]

 > Although I have occasionally heard of the "rule" that started this
thread, I don't feel that people should ever be penalized for declining 
an offer to dance.


Dale


Unfortunately, although the rule in question was well-intended, it did 
lead to folks sometimes getting cornered by those they didn't want to 
dance with, and they were then stuck sitting out.


What I'm hearing from the responses is that this rule is still lingering 
in a vague, not-quite-stated-but-sort-of-assumed way in a lot of 
dancers' heads.  The fact that it's persisting in some places but not 
others, or in certain dancer demographics but not others _within the 
same dance community_, means that we've got some conflicts brewing.  One 
incident was mentioned already here by a dancer who was hurt to see 
someone who had refused her offer then dancing with someone else.


The culture has shifted hugely, both in and out of the dance community, 
since this rule was initially stated.  Might be time to address it 
head-on rather than letting it lump and bump its way out.


Kalia
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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Dale Wilson via Callers]

Great discussion.  I'm chiming in late, but my $0.02.

"No thank you.  Maybe later." means you have some reason not to dance this
particular dance with this person, but would be open to future offers.
"No thank you." with a friendly smile is similar but less explicit.

The above should cover 99% of the cases!

"No thank you." without a smile and turning away immediately, is a vague
way of saying, "Please don't ask again."  Some people will get the
message.  Many won't because the "thank you" diffuses the message.
"No" without a smile and with an immediate turn may be more effective, but
is still vague.
"No. Please don't ask again." is a kind and polite response when you have a
reason never to dance with a person.  It tells the person where they stand,
and avoids expectations that might lead to future invitations.

Even kinder is, "No, I don't feel (safe|comfortable|whatever) dancing with
you."  It lets the person know unambiguously that there is a problem and
indicates that you might be willing to elaborate.
This leaves open the possibility that the person might ask questions and
learn.
Unfortunately, it also leaves open the possibility that the person will ask
questions as another way to force unwanted attention on you.

In my intro lessons I say something like:

"Feel free to ask anyone to dance.
You will find that most experienced dancers will be pleased to dance with
you.
However, if someone turns down your request, don't be offended.  There are
many reasons why they may not be available right now.
If someone you don't know invites you to dance, be open to the idea that
you may be about to make a new friend.
However, you should also feel free to decline to dance with or without
explaining if you need a rest, or have a partner for the next dance, or if
you aren't comfortable dancing with the person who asked."

Although I have occasionally heard of the "rule" that started this thread,
I don't feel that people should ever be penalized for declining an offer to
dance.

Dale

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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Amy Wimmer via Callers]

Greetings All,

I really like JD's methods. When teaching I do an abbreviated version of
that, but I think I'll expand it to include a _kind_ refusal, and universal
participation during the lesson.

My husband and I are dance organizers, and for several years have been
working hard to make the atmosphere of the dance welcoming and safe for
all. We have signs in the restrooms about behavior. The one in the women's
states that if one doesn't want to dance with someone, for any reason, it
is best to be quick about it, saying, "No, thank you," so the ask-er has
time to find a different partner. Skip the lengthy excuse, then find a
partner you _want_ to dance with.

Also, at the end of a dance, I often encourage people to invite someone
who's sitting out to dance. Every once in a while I ask new folks to
identify themselves, then ask experienced dancers to dance with them.

-Amy




On Dec 17, 2017 12:01 AM, "JD Erskine via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

On 2017-12-16 1139, Kalia Kliban via Callers wrote:

> Hi all,
>

snip


To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been
> replaced, and what has it been replaced with?  In your dance community,
> do you have a written statement of the etiquette around this?  Our
> community's statement doesn't directly address this issue.
>
> Kalia
>

I'm aware of it the earlier approach. Like Martha I once chose to follow it
and sit one out now and again.

I think it's pretty much died, and across a number of dance forms in my
village, and the local and larger regions here. I couldn't say when,
however it isn't a taught thing, to my knowledge.

I've not seen a written statement, in any social/country dance form in my
village or the major neighbouring one.

When offering an introductory session, typically for Contra or sometimes
for a larger/longer "Community" or ONS event, I cover it at some point.

Rather than talk about it, or model it, I have _everyone_ pattern it.

All I do is state that anyone may ask anyone to dance, that we all have the
freedom to accept or not. I often include that _no_ reason,
excuse/"excuse", explanation, or additional words are necessary, useful or
expected.

Then I give a basic verbal example like,

"Would you like to dance?" "Yes please/thank you."
(depends on my mind that day.)

"Would you like to dance?" "No thank you."

I count to three, we all _loudly_ ask, then we all loudly answer,
accepting. Then I start again and we all ask, then all kindly say no.

Often many are laughing by the time that is done.

Sometimes I've seen the mood, esp. amongst some who may have seemed
concerned (generally), lighten a bit. Usually lots of smiles. Thing is
they've all practised it, and now know that those in the room know this is
an accepted approach. I think that takes a load off some minds, if not
about this then possibly about being there, trying something new. We're
laughing and that eases a number of things in general.

Enough regular dancers participate in the Contra intro session that it's
not only newcomers who hear this, from me. If it's late enough in the time
frame of that others are in the room and hear it as well.


The Me-Too moment:

I've really only had one major instance of a persistent series of
"askings", over one event and from one person at that. I danced a couple of
them. I then chose to say more, thanking them for the attention and the
awareness given me that they thought it fun to dance with me, however
pointing out there were more people than I could possibly dance with there
over that type of dance weekend, and that I too had friends I'd not dance
with if I acquiesced to every request. (We were both visiting that city.)
It wasn't comfortable to say, however the attention wasn't welcome either.

I think the point was made kindly enough that I wasn't their "ride", to
satisfy them simply out of courtesy. Perhaps this informed me a bit with
respect to my inclusions when teaching. Dunno.

I'm glad of the aspect Alan provided regarding Austenites/Regency. Very
handy to know. It's the kind of thing I might have read and automatically
tempered myself in a contemporary setting without considering the effect
that same reading might have on a died-in-the-wool fan.

Thank you for the question and the thread. It might prove to be an
interesting and useful one for the SW Dance Organiser list denizens.

Compliments of the season to all.

Cheers, John
-- 
J.D. Erskine
Victoria, BC


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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[JD Erskine via Callers]

On 2017-12-16 1139, Kalia Kliban via Callers wrote:

Hi all,


snip


To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been
replaced, and what has it been replaced with?  In your dance community,
do you have a written statement of the etiquette around this?  Our
community's statement doesn't directly address this issue.

Kalia


I'm aware of it the earlier approach. Like Martha I once chose to follow 
it and sit one out now and again.


I think it's pretty much died, and across a number of dance forms in my 
village, and the local and larger regions here. I couldn't say when, 
however it isn't a taught thing, to my knowledge.


I've not seen a written statement, in any social/country dance form in 
my village or the major neighbouring one.


When offering an introductory session, typically for Contra or sometimes 
for a larger/longer "Community" or ONS event, I cover it at some point.


Rather than talk about it, or model it, I have _everyone_ pattern it.

All I do is state that anyone may ask anyone to dance, that we all have 
the freedom to accept or not. I often include that _no_ reason, 
excuse/"excuse", explanation, or additional words are necessary, useful 
or expected.


Then I give a basic verbal example like,

"Would you like to dance?" "Yes please/thank you."
(depends on my mind that day.)

"Would you like to dance?" "No thank you."

I count to three, we all _loudly_ ask, then we all loudly answer, 
accepting. Then I start again and we all ask, then all kindly say no.


Often many are laughing by the time that is done.

Sometimes I've seen the mood, esp. amongst some who may have seemed 
concerned (generally), lighten a bit. Usually lots of smiles. Thing is 
they've all practised it, and now know that those in the room know this 
is an accepted approach. I think that takes a load off some minds, if 
not about this then possibly about being there, trying something new. 
We're laughing and that eases a number of things in general.


Enough regular dancers participate in the Contra intro session that it's 
not only newcomers who hear this, from me. If it's late enough in the 
time frame of that others are in the room and hear it as well.



The Me-Too moment:

I've really only had one major instance of a persistent series of 
"askings", over one event and from one person at that. I danced a couple 
of them. I then chose to say more, thanking them for the attention and 
the awareness given me that they thought it fun to dance with me, 
however pointing out there were more people than I could possibly dance 
with there over that type of dance weekend, and that I too had friends 
I'd not dance with if I acquiesced to every request. (We were both 
visiting that city.) It wasn't comfortable to say, however the attention 
wasn't welcome either.


I think the point was made kindly enough that I wasn't their "ride", to 
satisfy them simply out of courtesy. Perhaps this informed me a bit with 
respect to my inclusions when teaching. Dunno.


I'm glad of the aspect Alan provided regarding Austenites/Regency. Very 
handy to know. It's the kind of thing I might have read and 
automatically tempered myself in a contemporary setting without 
considering the effect that same reading might have on a 
died-in-the-wool fan.


Thank you for the question and the thread. It might prove to be an 
interesting and useful one for the SW Dance Organiser list denizens.


Compliments of the season to all.

Cheers, John
--
J.D. Erskine
Victoria, BC

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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Martha Wild via Callers]

Oh, yes, I remember that rule. If I was asked by someone I really didn’t want 
to dance with, and I declined to dance with them, I would sit out the next 
dance in order not to hurt their feelings and I had to act as if I was tired or 
I wanted to sit it out, all the time wishing that I'd avoided that particular 
person and could be dancing. I suppose the idea was more not to be cliquish, 
and only dance with the few people you knew, leaving newcomers unwelcome and 
feeling left out. But I wasn’t very picky - I danced with pretty much everyone 
except one or two people who were either too interested in me, or just such bad 
dancers that I could get hurt. I do think it’s a good idea to not be limited by 
having to sit out if you turned someone down. But perhaps people should be 
reminded that they might meet a new friend if they dance with someone they 
don’t know. And experienced dancers could be encouraged to dance with less 
experienced dancers to help improve the overall level of competence at the 
dance. Some places have really suffered by having experienced dancers that have 
frozen out new people so long that now their dance numbers are dwindling.

Martha

> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:39 AM, Kalia Kliban via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember the 
> rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer. A very 
> competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I did (late 
> 80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to dance because he 
> doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking "If I don't dance with 
> this guy then I have to sit one out.  Oh crap, guess I'll have to dance with 
> him."  For the record, he's a totally solid and delightful dancer.
> 
> To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been 
> replaced, and what has it been replaced with?  In your dance community, do 
> you have a written statement of the etiquette around this?  Our community's 
> statement doesn't directly address this issue.
> 
> Kalia
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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Kalia Kliban via Callers]

On 12/16/2017 2:10 PM, Alan Winston via Callers wrote:

BACDS Code of Conduct says:
http://bacds.org/conduct/CodeOfConduct.pdf
"Ask a partner kindly.  Accept their answer cheerfully.  If you are 
repeatedly declined by a prospective partner, it is best to give them 
space.


Feel free to decline a dance with someone with whom you feel 
uncomfortable. If you would prefer not to dance with them, a simple "no 
thanks" is appropriate.  We encourage you to dance with a variety of 
people both new and familiar, but your safety and comfort come first.

---

So it doesn't explicitly address this, but I think it doesn't address it 
because the norm is now understood to be that there's no obligations on 
the person being asked.


But the issue is those dancers who came into the scene when the norm was 
different, and who still carry the old assumption.  I truly hadn't even 
considered this problem until my recent conversation, but it pointed up 
that even though those older conventions have changed, if nobody 
explicitly points out that they've changed, we're leaving a lot of 
dancers working with old information.


It's an extremely specific point of etiquette, and the number of dancers 
affected by it may be small (or may be huge, I truly don't know).  But 
it exists and I'm looking for clarity on the issue within my own dance 
community, and also looking for ways to address it as I teach.


Alan's points about declining an offer to dance with grace and brevity 
are excellent.


I think I got some of that by looking at the George Marshal beginner 
session that's on youtube.


I'll check that out in a bit.  He's generally a good one to look to for 
inviting and graceful teaching.


Incidentally, some brand new dancers come in with the "must sit out if 
declining a dance" idea already installed; it turns out that it's there 
in Jane Austen.  


Ah.  Interesting.

Looking forward to hearing from more of you.
Kalia
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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Don Veino via Callers]

I think that person was really saying "no, sorry; I'm a total self-centered
a-hole!"

When doing a beginner session, I cover the basic asking to dance bit and
then say something to the effect of

"You're free to decline for any reason - just say "no thank you" and move
on. You don't owe any explanation and trying to give one will just delay
that person in finding another partner."

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Angela DeCarlis via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>
> To clarify, however, being rude is still totally unacceptable! My mom was
> turned down for a dance recently with the line, "no, sorry; I'm *very*
> particular with who I dance with!" Nope! Don't be that guy!
>
>
>
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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Alan Winston via Callers]

BACDS Code of Conduct says:

http://bacds.org/conduct/CodeOfConduct.pdf

-

"Ask a partner kindly.  Accept their answer cheerfully.  If you are 
repeatedly declined by a prospective partner, it is best to give them space.


Feel free to decline a dance with someone with whom you feel 
uncomfortable. If you would prefer not to dance with them, a simple "no 
thanks" is appropriate.  We encourage you to dance with a variety of 
peple both new and familiar, but your safety and comfort come first.


---

So it doesn't explicitly address this, but I think it doesn't address it 
because the norm is now understood to be that there's no obligations on 
the person being asked.


In my beginner lessons, both contra and English, I say (when I remember) 
that anybody may ask anybody else to dance, that you can accept or 
decline, that you don't have to explain yourself and that indeed you 
shouldn't spend a lot of time declining because that keeps the one who 
asked you from finding another partner.  (I also sometimes say that 
unlike a bar or club, the only necessary subtext of "may I have this 
dance" is "I need a partner to able to dance this dance".)  I've 
occasionally modeled asking, being declined, and moving on with good grace.


I think I got some of that by looking at the George Marshal beginner 
session that's on youtube.


Incidentally, some brand new dancers come in with the "must sit out if 
declining a dance" idea already installed; it turns out that it's there 
in Jane Austen.  So in discussing this in Regency-dance context I do a 
thing about how this isn't re-creation but recreation - we're playing, 
not slavishly reconstructing the period, and we can leave behind things 
that don't work for us today.


-- Alan


On 12/16/17 11:39 AM, Kalia Kliban via Callers wrote:

Hi all,

Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember 
the rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer. 
A very competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I 
did (late 80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to 
dance because he doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking 
"If I don't dance with this guy then I have to sit one out.  Oh crap, 
guess I'll have to dance with him."  For the record, he's a totally 
solid and delightful dancer.


To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been 
replaced, and what has it been replaced with?  In your dance 
community, do you have a written statement of the etiquette around 
this?  Our community's statement doesn't directly address this issue.


Kalia
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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Bob Green via Callers]

I employ and teach the method that Angela suggests... but not always. I am
old school enough that I may sit a dance after a refusal of an offer...but
then I rarely refuse an offer to dance unless I really do need a rest or I
have some other obligation.  I think George Marshall's presentation in the
video of his beginner's class is worth considering. This issue is addressed
a little after the 11 minute mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14nxFdcaKWA

Bob Green
St. Louis


Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Angela DeCarlis via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I think the story you tell is a great reason why the older etiquette of
> having to sit out is silly and outdated -- I'd rather someone who doesn't
> want to dance with me just say "no thank you!" And continue about their
> business.
>
> As a caller, I teach that "yes, thank you!" and "no, thank you!" are both
> perfectly acceptable answers if someone asks you to dance. I also point out
> that if someone declines your offer to dance, too never take it personally.
>
> To clarify, however, being rude is still totally unacceptable! My mom was
> turned down for a dance recently with the line, "no, sorry; I'm *very*
> particular with who I dance with!" Nope! Don't be that guy!
>
> On Dec 16, 2017 3:11 PM, "Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers" <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> This is Cdny’s etiquette page. It addresses saying no but not in great
>> detail in terms of historical practice.
>>
>> http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:39 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers <
>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember the
>> rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer. A very
>> competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I did (late
>> 80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to dance because he
>> doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking "If I don't dance
>> with this guy then I have to sit one out.  Oh crap, guess I'll have to
>> dance with him."  For the record, he's a totally solid and delightful
>> dancer.
>>
>> To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been
>> replaced, and what has it been replaced with?  In your dance community, do
>> you have a written statement of the etiquette around this?  Our community's
>> statement doesn't directly address this issue.
>>
>> Kalia
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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Angela DeCarlis via Callers]

I think the story you tell is a great reason why the older etiquette of
having to sit out is silly and outdated -- I'd rather someone who doesn't
want to dance with me just say "no thank you!" And continue about their
business.

As a caller, I teach that "yes, thank you!" and "no, thank you!" are both
perfectly acceptable answers if someone asks you to dance. I also point out
that if someone declines your offer to dance, too never take it personally.

To clarify, however, being rude is still totally unacceptable! My mom was
turned down for a dance recently with the line, "no, sorry; I'm *very*
particular with who I dance with!" Nope! Don't be that guy!

On Dec 16, 2017 3:11 PM, "Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> This is Cdny’s etiquette page. It addresses saying no but not in great
> detail in terms of historical practice.
>
> http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:39 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember the
> rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer. A very
> competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I did (late
> 80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to dance because he
> doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking "If I don't dance
> with this guy then I have to sit one out.  Oh crap, guess I'll have to
> dance with him."  For the record, he's a totally solid and delightful
> dancer.
>
> To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been
> replaced, and what has it been replaced with?  In your dance community, do
> you have a written statement of the etiquette around this?  Our community's
> statement doesn't directly address this issue.
>
> Kalia
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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Kalia Kliban via Callers]

On 12/16/2017 12:01 PM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby wrote:
This is Cdny’s etiquette page. It addresses saying no but not in great 
detail in terms of historical practice.


http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/


And I hadn't realized until this conversation with my dance friend just 
how problematic that earlier etiquette practice was for folks who really 
wanted to be considerate of the other dancers on the floor.  If they 
were, for whatever reason, concerned that someone might not want to 
dance with them, the mere act of asking that person to dance put the 
askee in a bind.  So those who started dancing in the time period when 
that rule was the norm have carried that dilemma with them through the 
years.


Those of you who are organizers and who deal with setting standards of 
conduct for your communities, what are your thoughts about this?  Has 
that rule completely fallen by the wayside?  If so, have any of you 
specifically addressed its demise?


Kalia
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Re: [Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers]

This is Cdny’s etiquette page. It addresses saying no but not in great detail 
in terms of historical practice. 

http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:39 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember the 
> rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer. A very 
> competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I did (late 
> 80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to dance because he 
> doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking "If I don't dance with 
> this guy then I have to sit one out.  Oh crap, guess I'll have to dance with 
> him."  For the record, he's a totally solid and delightful dancer.
> 
> To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been 
> replaced, and what has it been replaced with?  In your dance community, do 
> you have a written statement of the etiquette around this?  Our community's 
> statement doesn't directly address this issue.
> 
> Kalia
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[Callers] Etiquette of refusing an offer to dance

[Kalia Kliban via Callers]

Hi all,

Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember 
the rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer. 
A very competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I 
did (late 80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to 
dance because he doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking 
"If I don't dance with this guy then I have to sit one out.  Oh crap, 
guess I'll have to dance with him."  For the record, he's a totally 
solid and delightful dancer.


To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been 
replaced, and what has it been replaced with?  In your dance community, 
do you have a written statement of the etiquette around this?  Our 
community's statement doesn't directly address this issue.


Kalia
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